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Why do some creationists think evolution = atheism?

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Micro evolution... a distinction originated by scientists, btw... is accepted by all, or at least should be, since it is observed.

So is "macroevolution", i.e,. the evolution of new species.

But unproven CD evolution, coupled with the ever-present and touted "theory" of abiogenesis -- where else is it leading?

Slowly but surely, the establishment is trying to push God out of the picture. Those that don't see it and ignore the threat, are as naïve as Neville Chamberlain was about Hitler.

To me, it's the opposite: the more discoveries that are unveiled, the more integrated complexity is observed....the less an intelligent Source behind it can be ignored. But that's not the goal for those who promote macro evolution!

That's quite a serious accusation against an enormous number of people. You've essentially accused everyone who's worked in the biological sciences for the last 150 years of conspiring to manipulate the scientific process "to push God out of the picture".

Where is your evidence for this?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
But is there consensus among scientists regarding these evolutionary mechanisms? No!

So your statement lacks substance.
?????? Whether or not there is absolute 100% agreement among all biologists regarding evolutionary mechanisms is completely irrelevant to the point. Musing Bassist singled out evolutionary theory as "reducing life to mechanistic processes", but as I pointed out all fields of science explain phenomena via mechanistic processes. Chemistry, geology, physics, engineering......every one of them rely on natural mechanisms to explain the world around us.

So the point is, why single out evolutionary biology as somehow unique in that regard? Why aren't creationists complaining about chemists and physicists "reducing all matter to mechanistic processes"? How about geologists who "reduce all of the earth to mechanistic processes"?

Do you see the point?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I think the real reason why creationists equate evolution with atheism, is to draw people away from the science or biology of evolution.

This tactics is also used to distract everyone from the fact that there are no science to the Abrahamic version of creation.

They use it to hide that there are no evidences for their creation myths.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
?????? Whether or not there is absolute 100% agreement among all biologists regarding evolutionary mechanisms is completely irrelevant to the point. Musing Bassist singled out evolutionary theory as "reducing life to mechanistic processes", but as I pointed out all fields of science explain phenomena via mechanistic processes. Chemistry, geology, physics, engineering......every one of them rely on natural mechanisms to explain the world around us.

So the point is, why single out evolutionary biology as somehow unique in that regard? Why aren't creationists complaining about chemists and physicists "reducing all matter to mechanistic processes"? How about geologists who "reduce all of the earth to mechanistic processes"?

Do you see the point?

I shouldn't have said, "your statement lacks substance." It does apply to the issue you were defending.

I was making a separate unrelated point, that even the evolutionary leaders in their fields can't agree on how descent among organisms progressed. Their discussions are free-for-alls at times, even deteriorating into verbal insults hurled at each other. These "pillars of science" fail to establish a solid ground on which to build a unified platform. The tree of life is a thorny bush.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
I was making a separate unrelated point, that even the evolutionary leaders in their fields can't agree on how descent among organisms progressed. Their discussions are free-for-alls at times, even deteriorating into verbal insults hurled at each other. These "pillars of science" fail to establish a solid ground on which to build a unified platform. The tree of life is a thorny bush.
So? That's true in just about every field of science.

Life has been evolving on earth for over 3 billion years, and over that time countless species and traits have arisen, flourished, and vanished. That much remains to be figured out in terms of how, when, and where is hardly surprising. That's why we still have science. If all scientists agreed on all details about the entire history of life on earth, biology would be over.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
I was making a separate unrelated point, that even the evolutionary leaders in their fields can't agree on how descent among organisms progressed. Their discussions are free-for-alls at times, even deteriorating into verbal insults hurled at each other. These "pillars of science" fail to establish a solid ground on which to build a unified platform. The tree of life is a thorny bush.
That's not the way science work.

Nothing in science, whether it be physics, chemistry or biology, or any combination, are never set in absolute and never unchanging.

Science is knowledge (i.e. theory), is the ability to explain a natural or man-made phenomena (examples of man-made phenomena, computers, automotive engine, etc), but its acceptance is dependent on evidences.

New evidences discovered can possibly -

(A) reinforce and verify existing theory,
(B) update the existing theory,
(C) correcting errors in existing theory,
(D) discovering better alternative theory,
(E) and lastly debunk the existing theory.​

Science don't remain static and unchanging, so any theory can be changed or replaced by better theory.

And the only way any theory can be accepted, is through empirical and verifiable evidences, or through rigorous and repeated testings.

So nothing in science is absolute and unchangeable.

In all of my above points, it mean that science is essentially dependent upon on "probability". So a theory is only determined as -

(A) probable true,
(B) probable false,
(C) or undetermined.​

So any theory can be questioned or challenged...BUT, scientists who questioned or challenged, MUST BE ABLE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCES to support their challenges, otherwise their alternative theories are rejected.

Scientists can disagree with any current and existing theory, but their hypotheses must be testable, and new hypotheses can only be accepted or rejected, with testings an/ or with evidences.

And it is only accepted when evidences have been found and verified.

To give you an example of competing hypotheses or theories, where scientists may challenge existing and older explanation, let me demonstrate with history of cosmology.

People used to believe and accept the 6-day creation literally, and it has been unchallenged for millennia, and that the Earth was centre of the known universe, while the sun, moon, 5 planets and the stars revolve around Earth, hence the "geocentric planetary motion model" (let shortened this to "geocentric model" or even geocentrism).

All geocentric model is, is that the sun and planets revolve around the Earth in its orbits.

Before the invention of a telescope, geocentric model has only be challenged a few time in history, by the (3rd century BCE) Greek (Aristomachos of Samos) and Indian astronomers, and even by one Muslim astronomer (I can't remember if he was an Arab or Persian astronomer, though this Muslim retracted his claim, when he was unable to prove it) with the heliocentric model.

The heliocentric model is a model that say the planets, including the Earth, orbited around the Sun.

This (heliocentric) model would not reappear again, until the renaissance with first, Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543) - the Copernican heliocentrism, and then supported by Johannes Kepler (1571-1630), but confirmed by Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) with his invention of the telescope.

It was the works done by Kepler, who influenced Isaac Newton (1642-1727) to develop his theory on gravity. And Newton's theory went unchallenged though the succeeding couple of centuries, until Albert Einstein (1879-1955) published his theory on General Relativity, in 1916.

His theory didn't make Newton's theory on gravity completely obsolete, but it does reveal Newton's theory have serious limitations, as it doesn't work in deep space, where gravity operates differently.

But General Relativity (GR) did more than just push Newton's law into the background; GR provide the framework of future works on the physical cosmology.

Two astrophysicists, Alexander Friedmann (in 1922) and Georges Lemaître (in 1927) have independently provide their hypotheses that the universe have a beginning, and it (universe) have been expanding ever since. It was known as expanding universe model or the inflationary universe model, back then, before the more popular Big Bang model was coined in 1948, by Fred Hoyle.

Hoyle wasn't a supporter of the Big Bang theory. He challenged the BB model with his own hypothesis - the Steady State model in 1948.

Hoyle was actually being interviewed on BBC radio, when he coined the Big Bang, but he was actually trying to promote his own Steady State model.

But there has already been evidence to support the Big Bang model, as early as 1929, when Edwin Hubble discovered how to measure galaxies are moving away from each other, by noticing the red-shift. If galaxies are moving away from each other than it is red-shifting in the spectrum, suggesting the universe is expanding, while blue-shifting on the side of scale of visible spectrum, the galaxies are moving towards each other, hence universe would be contracting.

On the same year (1948), Hoyle was promoting his hypothesis in public, George Gamow predicted Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN), and Gamow's former pupil but now colleague, Ralph Alpher, with Robert Herman, predicted the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR).

CMBR wasn't discovered until in 1964, by other astronomers, Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson. The CMBR was recently mapped by space telescopes WMAP and the Planck space probe.

CMBR discovery was the final nail needed to nail the coffin for Hoyle's Steady State model.

As you can see in my history lesson on cosmology, some challenges earlier cosmology that began with Aristomachos' with heliocentric model was scientifically true, but was generally unpopular, only to succeed over 1500 years later. While other challenged the current theory, like with Hoyle against the expanding universe model (or the Big Bang) have failed.

All of which, demonstrate that the only way anything can be true, is through evidences, not faith and belief.

Evolution has been challenged by other biologists, but have failed. Evolution have also been challenged by some religions, like with young earth creationism (YEC) and by intelligent design (ID), but neither of these two are science, and they have failed.

Evolutionary biology and its theory can be questioned and challenged, Hockeycowboy, but without evidences, neither creationism, nor ID, can ever be called science.

Darwin's original theory on Natural Selection, have already been corrected and amended after his death by 20th century biologists, so it is still a very valid theory. Even new mechanisms that have been discovered, like mutation, gene flow and genetic drift, doesn't make natural selection obsolete.

One day, there may be better alternative explanation for biodiversity, but it looked like the 20th century biology did a thorough job in covering many of the basis.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Life has been evolving on earth for over 3 billion years....

As I mentioned to another poster, you really can't say over 3 billion. For the first 3 billion, until the Cambrian Explosion, lifeforms were pretty much static. Or do you disagree?
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
As I mentioned to another poster, you really can't say over 3 billion. For the first 3 billion, until the Cambrian Explosion, lifeforms were pretty much static. Or do you disagree?
Of course I disagree. Creationists like to point out that cellular chemistry is quite complex. My response is to point out that it's hardly surprising, given that about the first 3 billion years of earth's history was devoted solely to cellular evolution.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Of course I disagree. Creationists like to point out that cellular chemistry is quite complex. My response is to point out that it's hardly surprising, given that about the first 3 billion years of earth's history was devoted solely to cellular evolution.


Yeah, exactly....that's about all there was, unicellular life! And Please! The earliest bacterial fossils show just as much complexity as more-recent, bacterial fossils!
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
Yeah, exactly....that's about all there was, unicellular life! And Please! The earliest bacterial fossils show just as much complexity as more-recent, bacterial fossils!
This is an interesting statement.

How do you know that? Has anyone sequenced the genetic material obtained from the earliest bacterial fossils?
 

Derek500

Wish I could change this to AUD
Sorry to say but most creationist are pretty simple minded people, well that's what I have seen.
I competely agree. Most YEC's really are simple minded. Just my observation.

But then I live a country where most Christians also accept the findings of science. The very few who don't tend to be members of the JW's and SDA's. And they are a very small minority getting paid to write stuff in newspapers under different names pretending that they are in the majority.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Well evolution is not compatible with the Bible.
As long as we don't assume the days of Creation in Genesis to be our literal 24 hour days but rather large stretches of time, we see the gradual appearance of various species, which is what the theory of evolution states.
trying to divorce the question of how life began from how it then developed is simply a way to dodge questions for which evolution theory has no answers, IMO.
How life got here and how life developed are two different questions. It's not dodging a question but science function properly because a single theory will not cover two separate questions in such a manner.
As to scientific arguments for ID that stood up to scientific scrutiny, I must say the same for arguments for evolution.
ID doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny because of its lack of predictions, its lack of falsifiabililty, and lack of testability. Charles Darwin, when realizing the process of natural selection, made many predictions that were accurate, the fossil record supports his claims, and we see evolution happening all around us.
But is there consensus among scientists regarding these evolutionary mechanisms? No!
Yes, actually there is. There are very, very few scientists who do not accept evolution, with natural selection being the primary driving mechanism (but of course there are also things such as selective selection).
To me, it's the opposite: the more discoveries that are unveiled, the more integrated complexity is observed....the less an intelligent Source behind it can be ignored. But that's not the goal for those who promote macro evolution!
Actually there are many of those, including scientists, who couldn't care less about the gods and religions others follows except when they try to push their religious views on others, such as teaching Creationism as science. Scientists aren't going to churches and making demands about what they teach - the church needs to learn to extend the same courtesy and not butt in and demand a science education be adjusted to fit their views.
 

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Yeah, exactly....that's about all there was, unicellular life! And Please! The earliest bacterial fossils show just as much complexity as more-recent, bacterial fossils!
They do? I didn't realize all the biochemical pathways and such were fossilized. Can you point me to where they found them?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Micro evolution... a distinction originated by scientists, btw... is accepted by all, or at least should be, since it is observed. But unproven CD evolution, coupled with the ever-present and touted "theory" of abiogenesis -- where else is it leading?

It's pretty hard to believe that the mico/macroevolution distinction doesn't come from creationists whether they were scientists or not. The scientific community has no use for that language - no reason to make that distinction.

Slowly but surely, the establishment is trying to push God out of the picture. Those that don't see it and ignore the threat, are as naïve as Neville Chamberlain was about Hitler.

Nobody can push God out of the picture. Each person makes decisions about God for himself.

I also don't see a threat from diminished religiosity. The data shows us that we expect a better future as the nation becomes more secular.

To me, it's the opposite: the more discoveries that are unveiled, the more integrated complexity is observed....the less an intelligent Source behind it can be ignored.

Complexity is not an argument for intelligence. The weather is complex.


But that's not the goal for those who promote macro evolution!

Who's promoting evolution? The scientists don't care if creationists believe them or not. Nor does the secular community.

The schools teach evolution, but that's not promoting it. It's merely describing the theory and providing the argument and evidence for it. You're free to believe it or not.

You will be required to learn it to pass your tests, but your teacher will not ask you if you believe it, nor pressure you if you volunteer that you don't, and you are free to forget it immediately thereafter. It just doesn't matter.

What matters is that the theory has predictive power and practical application. It has those whether the creationist comes over or doesn't.

Belief is not required or even helpful to anyone but the believer. Believing that the theory is correct helps me to understand the world a little better and makes atheism more tenable, but neither of those is helpful to anybody but me.

Consider if we were talking about electromagnetism instead. What difference would it make if nobody but the scientists whose work has resulted in successfully lighting up the night and building motors accepted the science? We'd still have the lights and motors, and nobody would be promoting you to believe them or mind if you chose to not use them.

Contrast that with the church.It very much cares that as many people be convinced to believe its message, which is why it is constantly promoting Christianity. It's called proselytizing or evangelizing. It's why the Catholics establish missions and Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons come to your door. It's why Bible are in hotel room and why there is so much interest in getting creationism and prayer back into the schools.

Scientists do nothing at all like that.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
even the evolutionary leaders in their fields can't agree on how descent among organisms progressed.

Why is that relevant?

The theory makes broad and general statement about evolution: Life evolves according a particular mechanism that drives it. The theory doesn't attempt to identify the specific path of any evolutionary process, nor what changes will be selected for or against.

If you want a timeline and pathway for human evolution, it will come from paleontologists and physical anthropologists, not the theory of evolution.

If you want to know the timeline for the evolution of insect metamorphosis, you'll need to consult the entomologists, not the theory of evolution.

The theory just tells you why it happened. Those changes led to a competitive advantage. The theory doesn't

Nevertheless, there are multiple areas of consensus concerning pathways. The first primates were wet-nosed prosimians like modern day lemurs, lorises and galagos that evolved from shrew-like non-primates.

From them, dry-nosed prosimians like the modern tarsier evolved.

From them come the monkeys, all of which are dry-nosed as are all of their descendents.

From the Old World monkeys came the apes, which bifurcated into lesser and great apes.

The great ape last common ancestor split into an orangutan and non-orangutan branch, the latter then splitting into a gorilla and a non-gorilla branch, with the non-gorilla branch then splitting into the chimp and human branches.

There is consensus about that primate pathway.

It assumes evolution, but the theory does not tell us any of those details. The were worked out by primatologists, not evolutionary biologists.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I mentioned to another poster, you really can't say over 3 billion. For the first 3 billion, until the Cambrian Explosion, lifeforms were pretty much static. Or do you disagree?

Two huge transformations occurred before the Cambrian: The advent of eukaryotic cells from prokaryotic cells, which took about 2 billion years, followed by the advent of multicellular life, which took another billion.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
This is an interesting statement.

How do you know that? Has anyone sequenced the genetic material obtained from the earliest bacterial fossils?
That was my point! You can't, but evolutionary scientists assume the earliest were simple!
 
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