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Is there anything more disgusting than God?

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Let me give you something to really Think about. As I see it, there will be no laws when one gets to God's world. Do you know why? Laws will be obsolete and no longer needed. Given enough knowledge and understanding, our intelligence will make evil no longer a viable choice. After all, evil is not an intelligent choice.

Unfortunately for yourselves, what you are trying to say to me is that Jesus was a liar. Why? Because Jesus himself said that the Law will never cease as long as heaven and earth passed away. Take a break and go out, and take a look around to see if heaven and earth have passed away yet! Absolutely not! So, Jesus was right and not a liar. So, who is lying? All those who assume that Mat. 5:17-19 is a lie; for instance, Paul who said that the Law was abolished by Jesus on the cross when Jesus could not have been more clear that he had not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. (Ephesians 2:15; Romans 10:4)
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
But it does, so I do have something.
We both have different assumptions. I believe Jesus was God, not the son of God. Therefore, I find gospel stories problematic, they have thematic inferences that don't correspond to Jesus being God. For that reason, I prefer Jesus sayings, they don't have sacrificial lamb stories. In particular, I like The Gospel of Thomas, it is a better representation of Jesus. Thanks for the discussion. It goes back to Christianity interpreting Jesus as a means for salvation. It is too easy. I have had this discussion with Christian clerics, it always comes out the same. I need to open my mind and heart to Jesus, the son of God. Well, if Jesus was God, and God didn't come into the world to be slaughtered for everyone's salvation, then the sacrificial lamb theme doesn't work. Because I don't think Jesus was crucified, the life of Jesus takes on different meaning. Without the salvation theme, the world doesn't have a rosy frame, it becomes a fallen world. I believe Judaism has it correct, and it is God's religion, the one he gave His chosen people. We don't find Jesus son of God salvation stories in the OT because it doesn't exist. I had an interesting discussion with a pastor. I asked him if Jews who lived before Jesus were saved, he said "no." They weren't offered the opportunity to accept Jesus as their savior. That's the kind of perversion you find with false ideas about Jesus (God).
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
We both have different assumptions. I believe Jesus was God, not the son of God.
Perhaps its the definitions for indeed He was God. But there are many titles given for different reasons. He is also the Lamb of God and many other designated names. He received the designation of Son of God when (Phil 2), He emptied himself of His God attributes and came as a man.

He is still The Word, Immanuel, God with us but manifested in the flesh as the Son of God.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Perhaps its the definitions for indeed He was God. But there are many titles given for different reasons. He is also the Lamb of God and many other designated names. He received the designation of Son of God when (Phil 2), He emptied himself of His God attributes and came as a man.

He is still The Word, Immanuel, God with us but manifested in the flesh as the Son of God.
If there is no salvation if you refuse to accept the son of God, it is a fairy tale. I am certain Jesus was God, so I don't have no problems with the salvation issue, but for millions of Christians the false idea is a real problem. It is a waste of time and effort praying to a pagan god. Yes, if there is no son of God, praying to one is pagan worship. How about millions of Jews, they are condemned because they don't believe Jesus is the son of God? The whole Christian business is a nightmare. It is an unintended consequence of God (OT Lord) coming into the world to give testimony to his chosen people. The platitudes that you reference are empty slogans for a fairy tale religion coming from clerics who believe they are holy, but know very little about God or heaven.

You cannot say, "Perhaps its the definitions for indeed He was God." That means you have it both ways, a lawyers trick. Jesus was either God or the son God, which is it? There is a huge difference between God and the son of God. It becomes confusing because it's based on a falsehood. There is no son of God. I suppose it keeps Christian theologians busy trying to untangle inconsistencies resulting in the big lie. I'll bet you can find numerous Christian treatises on the topic. Hey, it is the Trinity mystery, something to keep hundreds of Christian clerics busy, or give them monstrous headaches attempting to understand it.
 
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Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If there is no salvation through acceptance of the son of God, it is a fairy tale. I am certain Jesus was God, so I don't have no problems with the salvation issue, but for millions of Christians the false idea is a real nuisance, a waste of time and effort praying to a pagan god. Yes, if there is no son of God, praying to one is pagan worship. How about millions of Jews, they are condemned because they don't believe Jesus is the son of God. The whole Christian business is a nightmare. It is an unintended consequence of God coming into the world to give testimony to his chosen people.
Salvation is through the name of Jesus, if I'm not mistaken...

11 Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

The platitudes that you reference are empty slogans for a fairy tale religion coming from clerics who believe they are holy.
Supportive documentation?

As an opinion, you have every right to one... even if it is wrong.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Salvation is through the name of Jesus, if I'm not mistaken...

11 Jesus is “ ‘the stone you builders rejected, which has become the cornerstone.’
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Supportive documentation?

As an opinion, you have every right to one... even if it is wrong.
It is interesting, you ask for documentation. Where is the documentation for the NT gospels? There is none, just NT gospels by men who may not have been Jews. Moreover, they weren't eye witnesses. Evidence suggests they may have been Greeks. In the religious business, you have hundreds of years of clerical opinions, but no evidence. I was in the same boat until I had several dreams and a few visions contradicting Christian ideology. As a Christian, however, I always had my doubts. NT stories are too well scripted and dramatic to be real. It is hard to believe because it is not true. However, it has fooled many, many people for a very long time.
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately for yourselves, what you are trying to say to me is that Jesus was a liar. Why? Because Jesus himself said that the Law will never cease as long as heaven and earth passed away. Take a break and go out, and take a look around to see if heaven and earth have passed away yet! Absolutely not! So, Jesus was right and not a liar. So, who is lying? All those who assume that Mat. 5:17-19 is a lie; for instance, Paul who said that the Law was abolished by Jesus on the cross when Jesus could not have been more clear that he had not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. (Ephesians 2:15; Romans 10:4)


You might not want to hear this. Your Holy Book was written by mankind. Take it as such. Question it instead of accept it. To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is interesting, you ask for documentation. Where is the documentation for the NT gospels? There is none, just NT gospels by men who may not have been Jews. Moreover, they weren't eye witnesses. Evidence suggests they were Greeks. In the religious business, you have hundreds of years of clerical opinions, but no evidence. I was in the same boat until I had several dreams and a few visions contradicting Christian ideology. As a Christian, however, I always had my doubts. NT stories are too well scripted and dramatic to be real. It is hard to believe because it is not true. However, it has fooled many, many people for a very long time.
Again, have no documentation.

I have documentation... like a policeman talking to the witnesses...

As for dreams or nightmares, you must test the spirits.

As far as too scripted, hardly. "Cold Case" author doesn't agree and he is the expert.

1 John 1:
1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

Luke 1 1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts 1:
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
Again, have no documentation.

I have documentation... like a policeman talking to the witnesses...

As for dreams or nightmares, you must test the spirits.

As far as too scripted, hardly. "Cold Case" author doesn't agree and he is the expert.

1 John 1:
1
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.

Luke 1 1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts 1:
1 In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach
2 until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.

You have presented no historical documentation. No matter what the rational, evidence is required when the subject is of such a serious nature. It is easy, and tempting because of social pressure, to make up stories. It is likely those NT authors were pressured from believers, and from the competitive game of writing, to produce interesting and intriguing stories. No wonder, Christianity has become a popular religion, it has had excellent writers of fiction to write nonfictional stories about Jesus (God). Scholars don't regard hearsay evidence as valid.

Interesting, if my dreams conformed to NT gospels, they would regarded as miraculous inspirations. Because they don't, they're from demons. I was once told by a pastor they're from Satan. Regardless, I'll post what I please about what I know, and I know for certain Jesus was God, not the son of God.

The problem for Christianity is statements about God, angels, and all other religious subjects are made without evidence and believers say nothing. It would be fine if humans were honest, but they aren't. All people lie, some more than others. Life is like a court room, evidence is not admissible unless there is proof.

Christian theology is an unsolvable puzzle with so many contradictions. The OT Lord required obedience to His commandments. However, for NT Christians, obedience is not important. What matters is accepting the son of God as your savior. One can be disobedient but have salvation for simple accepting Jesus, the son of God, as one's savior. What a huge contradiction. Just think, all those OT Jews are condemned for not believing Jesus is the son of God. God's chosen people are rejected because Christians rewrote their holy books. How ridiculous.
 
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Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
You might not want to hear this. Your Holy Book was written by mankind. Take it as such. Question it instead of accept it. To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery.

Yes, I am well aware of what you say. Are you as well aware that all scientific books have been written by mankind?. What have you discovered so far, only empty theories without a bottomline? So much so that I have never got a substantial answer to my questions. When I press them against the corner, they come out with the only thing they have discovered: "I don't know!"
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You have presented no historical documentation.
These are the letters that were accepted in the 1st and 2nd century and you say it isn't historical. They match the OT and you say they aren't historical. If they find pottery with writing on it, archaeology says it is historical. If they find papyrus with writing on it, it is historical... but somehow I am supposed to take your stance?

No matter what the rational, evidence is required when the subject is of such a serious nature. It is easy, and tempting because of social pressure, to make up stories. It is likely those NT authors were pressured from believers, and from the competitive game of writing, to produce interesting and intriguing stories. No wonder, Christianity has become a popular religion, it has had excellent writers of fiction to write nonfictional stories about Jesus (God). Scholars don't regard hearsay evidence as valid.
That is a nice story.
Interesting, if my dreams conformed to NT gospels, they would regarded as miraculous inspirations. Because they don't, they're from demons. I was once told by a pastor they're from Satan. Regardless, I'll post what I please about what I know, and I know for certain Jesus was God, not the son of God.
It could be the result of a pizza night. But one thing for sure, if it doesn't match the plumb-line - it is off kilter.

The problem for Christianity is statements about God, angels, and all other religious subjects are made without evidence and believers say nothing. It would be fine if humans were honest, but they aren't. All people lie, some more than others. Life is like a court room, evidence is not admissible unless there is proof.
And yet people a lot smarter than you or I say that the evidence is admissible and were changed from atheists to believers. Cold Case Christianity is a good example.
Christian theology is an unsolvable puzzle with so many contradictions. The OT Lord required obedience to His commandments. However, for NT Christians, obedience is not important.
I disagree. There is a difference, however, there is more grace because of the Cross.
 

1AOA1

Active Member
It is interesting, you ask for documentation. Where is the documentation for the NT gospels? There is none, just NT gospels by men who may not have been Jews. Moreover, they weren't eye witnesses. Evidence suggests they may have been Greeks. In the religious business, you have hundreds of years of clerical opinions, but no evidence. I was in the same boat until I had several dreams and a few visions contradicting Christian ideology. As a Christian, however, I always had my doubts. NT stories are too well scripted and dramatic to be real. It is hard to believe because it is not true. However, it has fooled many, many people for a very long time.
Egyptian Cultural Heritage Organisation (ECHO)
Foreign archaeological missions resume excavating Upper Egypt after 13-year ban
(1:04:30 - 1:10:00)
 

Repox

Truth Seeker
These are the letters that were accepted in the 1st and 2nd century and you say it isn't historical. They match the OT and you say they aren't historical. If they find pottery with writing on it, archaeology says it is historical. If they find papyrus with writing on it, it is historical... but somehow I am supposed to take your stance?


That is a nice story.

It could be the result of a pizza night. But one thing for sure, if it doesn't match the plumb-line - it is off kilter.


And yet people a lot smarter than you or I say that the evidence is admissible and were changed from atheists to believers. Cold Case Christianity is a good example.

I disagree. There is a difference, however, there is more grace because of the Cross.

It is historical when there are documents deemed acceptable according to academic, or professional standards. I don't make them up, they are derived from the scholarly community. My point is not subject to dispute because claims must be based on professional standards. There has not been any confirmation of NT gospel stories, just confirmation of Jesus sayings according prior gospels and The Gospel of Q. If you don't like the criteria, take it up with the professional community. There may have been additional gospels for confirmation but church officials destroyed them. Back then, officials were very intolerant, they decided what was "holy" and what was heresy.

The reason why NT gospel stories are fabrications is because Jesus movement leaders changed the narrative. They didn't like what they read in earlier gospels, they didn't have enough pizazz. They found four that had similar story lines with exciting narratives. If you take out the narratives from the NT gospels, what remains are Jesus sayings. Evidently, by the time church leaders made their selection, in the third century, there were some gospels proclaiming Jesus to be the son of God. Those proclamations weren't made until thirty or more years had passed after Jesus was killed. This addresses the harm Christianity has caused by perpetuating a lie. If there is no son of God, there is no salvation based on the premise of accepting Jesus for salvation. Here are quotes from Wikipedia about the necessity of Christians believing in Jesus as the son of God for salvation.

While some of the differences are as widespread as Christianity itself, the overwhelming majority agrees that salvation is made possible by the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, dying on the cross.

Christian salvation concepts are varied and complicated by certain theological concepts, traditional beliefs, and dogmas. Scripture is subject to individual and ecclesiastical interpretations. While some of the differences are as widespread as Christianity itself, the overwhelming majority agrees that salvation is made possible by the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, dying on the cross.

The implication is clear, Jews and others who don't believe in the son of God are condemned. Do they go to hell? This Christian belief is partly responsible for hundreds of years of Anti-Semitism resulting in the persecution and death of Millions of God's chosen people. Those are the hard cold facts of Christianity! From this perspective, Christianity cannot claim holy ground, it is not what it pretends to be. Horrible persecutions have resulted from the big lie about Jesus. What would have happened if Jesus movement leaders hadn't changed the Jesus story? I suggest Jesus would have become part of Judaism. Well, maybe not. It seem Jews didn't acknowledge the divinity of Jesus. For them, Jesus was just another prophet, one not well regarded, he was too critical of Jewish religious practices.

Since God intervened in human affairs (Bible), there have been problems with a plethora of religious interpretations. Except for Judaism, most religions come from religious zealots, or people believing they have divine inspiration. As it turns out, only God is holy. Except for Jesus (God), I find no evidence for human holiness.
 
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Bird123

Well-Known Member
Yes, I am well aware of what you say. Are you as well aware that all scientific books have been written by mankind?. What have you discovered so far, only empty theories without a bottomline? So much so that I have never got a substantial answer to my questions. When I press them against the corner, they come out with the only thing they have discovered: "I don't know!"

Do you rely on all your information from the writings of others? Have you been conditioned to do nothing but follow??

Let's think for a moment. Books do contain lots of information. On the other hand, they are bias as to what the writer wants. Without discovery on your own, it comes down to a matter of beliefs, who has the better sales pitch, and what you really want to be true. Are you really willing to settle for beliefs and opinions?

How many times has someone talked about a person but when you actually met this person they were entirely different? First hand Discover brings one to the truth.

OK, say I wanted to Discover you. How could I discover real truth about you if I could not actually meet you? I could watch and study your Actions. Understanding your actions will bring me the understanding of you.

As I see it. All the secrets of the Universe Stare us all in the face. Can you See???
 

Ben Avraham

Well-Known Member
Do you rely on all your information from the writings of others? Have you been conditioned to do nothing but follow??Let's think for a moment. Books do contain lots of information. On the other hand, they are bias as to what the writer wants. Without discovery on your own, it comes down to a matter of beliefs, who has the better sales pitch, and what you really want to be true. Are you really willing to settle for beliefs and opinions? How many times has someone talked about a person but when you actually met this person they were entirely different? First hand Discover brings one to the truth. OK, say I wanted to Discover you. How could I discover real truth about you if I could not actually meet you? I could watch and study your Actions. Understanding your actions will bring me the understanding of you. As I see it. All the secrets of the Universe Stare us all in the face. Can you See???

Absolutely not! I can't rely on information from the writings of others, but from my own research on the realm of Logic
to understand the language of Biblical Scriptures.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
It is historical when there are documents deemed acceptable according to academic, or professional standards. I don't make them up, they are derived from the scholarly community. My point is not subject to dispute because claims must be based on professional standards.
No... your point IS subject to dispute for it is a modern unproven theory... as one author put it "among post-Christians, liberal Christians, some mainline Christians, and secularists that the authors of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke"

Post-Christians = after Christians
Liberal Christians = not literal or strict : loose a liberal translation
SOME mainline = being at least one (dictionary.com) = hardly many
Secularists = : indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

So your scholarly community is hardly mainstream.

There has not been any confirmation of NT gospel stories, just confirmation of Jesus sayings according prior gospels and The Gospel of Q.
IF and I do say IF there is no confirmations (which I disagree with totally) there is MUCH LESS confirmation of the Gospel of Q since there is no fragments or manuscripts -- only liberal viewpoints.

The reason why NT gospel stories are fabrications is because Jesus movement leaders changed the narrative.
LOL = Great statement but you have produced one iota of evidence.

While some of the differences are as widespread as Christianity itself, the overwhelming majority agrees that salvation is made possible by the work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, dying on the cross.
What differences?.


So, as a matter of fact, you still haven't produced one factual case to support your position other that liberal viewpoints with no "Gospel Q" from which they say they came from.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Aren't Biblical Scriptures the writings of Mankind?
Not in our understanding:

2 Peter 1:21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
 
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