Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go

[Ben Avraham]

1.- Not all midrash is correct. 2 - The Hebrew originally sacrificed their children as well, and the Abraham and Isaac story is probably representing the new idea of offering an animal in place of the firstborn. There is a lot of information available on this subject. Also, - Possibly the story of the death of the First born of Egypt, and passing over of the First Born of the Hebrew, because of the killing of an animal, and wiping the blood above the door, - could also be a change over to animal sacrifice story.

You could be right but, being still speculation, we have an extra evidence that this midrash is correct based on the fact that Abraham was a Prophet and, from Numbers 12:6 HaShem would reveal Himself to His prophets only through dreams and visions. So, Abraham had a dream about the Aquedat of Isaac.

Gen 22:2

And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram/lamb caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram/lamb, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Not only Thomas Mann but also myself in my humble opinion, that could not have happened in reality.

Exo 11:5

And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts. Exo 12:5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: Exo 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. Exo 12:23 For YHVH will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, YHVH will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite. Exo 12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight YHVH smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

The Hebrew did worship Molech, and brought him, and Sacred Prostitutes, into the Temple. Bible tells us so. There are several verses which seem to point to Molech being associated with YHVH. There is a verse in Tanakh saying they knew YHVH - before - under a different name.

I am sorry but, I need a quote for those charges. I have only that the Hebrews, from time to time would worship Baal Molech. That's true, because IMHO, it was mostly due to the sacrifices that Moses added as a religious ritual to the religion of Israel.

 

[Ingledsva]

You could be right but, being still speculation, we have an extra evidence that this midrash is correct based on the fact that Abraham was a Prophet and, from Numbers 12:6 HaShem would reveal Himself to His prophets only through dreams and visions. So, Abraham had a dream about the Aquedat of Isaac.

Not only Thomas Mann but also myself in my humble opinion, that could not have happened in reality.

I am sorry but, I need a quote for those charges. I have only that the Hebrews, from time to time would worship Baal Molech. That's true, because IMHO, it was mostly due to the sacrifices that Moses added as a religious ritual to the religion of Israel.

First, I'm not a believer in the Abrahamic religions, - thus, as far as I'm concerned none of the miracles are true.

I also find it strange that you believe in some miracles, - including an interacting God, - but then think "some" of the recorded miracles are false.

Of course the Abraham & Isaac story is not real. It is likely a teaching story. As I said, - it shows previous burnt offering sacrifice, and probably represents the change from human Firstborn sacrifice, - to animal only sacrifice.

"Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records. The command to Abraham (Gen. xxii.) and the subsequent development of the story indicate that the substitution of animal for human victims was traced to patriarchal example. The Ban ("ḥerem") preserves a certain form of the primitive human sacrifice (Schwally, "Kriegsaltertümer"). The first-born naturally belonged to the deity. Originally he was not ransomed, but immolated; ..." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice

I've already shown by verse, - that the Bible says not all YHVH encounters were through visions/dreams.

Other names - Ex 6:2 And Elohiym spoke to Moses and said to him, I am YHVH. Exo 6:3 And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, and by My name YHVH have I not been known to them.

There are other verses but I don't remember right now.

Some of the other Gods the Hebrew worshiped – Someone else made most of this list (thank you) and I added to it.

Asherah/Anath & and her consort El/ Baal, 1 Kings 11:5, 15: 11 & 12, and elsewhere.

Ba’al-ze’bub/Baal, 11 Kings 1: 2-16, 17: 10-17

Ash’toreth, Solomon and his people worshiped her, 1 Kings 11:5, 11 Kings 23:13.

Ba’al-berith – El-berith, “God of the covenant.” Judg. 9:46, 8:33, 9:4.

Ba’al-peor/Chemosh, The Israelites worshiped him on the Plains of Moab. Num. 25: 1-9, Psa. 106: 28, Hos. 9:10.

Chemosh, Solomon set a temple to him in Jerusalem, along with that to Ash’toreth, 1 Kings 11:7.

Bull Worship/Apis, 1 Kings 12: 28-33, and of course the Golden Calf.

Gad, God of Fortune, Isaiah 65:11

Me’ni, God of Destiny, Isaiah 65: 11

Mal’cham/Moloch, 1 Kings 11: 5, 33 – 11 Kings 23:13

Mero’dach, Worshipped by Nebuchadnezzar, Jer. 51: 44

Mo’lech, Solomon built him a temple at Tophet.

Nehush’tan, Serpent God, 11 Kings 18:4

Rephar, Israelites worshiped him in the desert, Acts 7: 43

Satyr/Pan, I put up a whole page on this awhile back. And a Temple of Pan has been uncovered in Israel.

“In northern Israel, the ancient city of Banyas has been excavated. It was the site of the Banyas spring, one of the sources of the river Jordan. A sanctuary complex to Pan has been found there:”

Tam’muz, Women cried for him at the Jerusalem Temple. Ezek. 8: 14, Jer. 22:18, Amos 8: 10, Zech. 12:10

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,.- Jeremiah 7:18

EDIT - Forgot to add about Sacred Sex at the Temple. One is -

1Sa 2:22 Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they had sex with the women that assembled/(PERFORM) at the entrance of the tabernacle of the congregation.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

You could be right but, being still speculation, we have an extra evidence that this midrash is correct based on the fact that Abraham was a Prophet and, from Numbers 12:6 HaShem would reveal Himself to His prophets only through dreams and visions. So, Abraham had a dream about the Aquedat of Isaac.

Not only Thomas Mann but also myself in my humble opinion, that could not have happened in reality.

I am sorry but, I need a quote for those charges. I have only that the Hebrews, from time to time would worship Baal Molech. That's true, because IMHO, it was mostly due to the sacrifices that Moses added as a religious ritual to the religion of Israel.

More about the Molech/Molach association to YHVH.

YHVH = Ba’al Molach???

Baal is called Baal Gad = Lord God, and if you have read some of our threads here, you would have seen conversations about the Hebrew originally being wandering Canaanites. The Canaanites worshipped Baal Gad, and sacrificed their sons to him. According to the Bible the Hebrew also worshiped, and had child sacrifice, to Baal.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Eze 20:25 Wherefore I (YHVH) gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Here they associate Ba'al with Moloch/Molech. We have had many discussions on the Hebrew worshiping Moloch.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My heart, that they should do this detestable thing, to cause Judah to sin.

Interestingly - in the verse where YHVH tells them his name is YHVH, - he said their forefathers knew him by a different name.

Exo 6:2 And Elohiym spoke to Moses and said to him, I am YHVH.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, and by My name YHVH have I not been known to them.

"… In other words, is the Molech to whom child-sacrifices were offered - Yahweh

"… In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia

*

 

[Ben Avraham]

More about the Molech/Molach association to YHVH.

YHVH = Ba’al Molach???

Baal is called Baal Gad = Lord God, and if you have read some of our threads here, you would have seen conversations about the Hebrew originally being wandering Canaanites. The Canaanites worshipped Baal Gad, and sacrificed their sons to him. According to the Bible the Hebrew also worshiped, and had child sacrifice, to Baal.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Eze 20:25 Wherefore I (YHVH) gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

Eze 20:26 And - I - polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.

Here they associate Ba'al with Moloch/Molech. We have had many discussions on the Hebrew worshiping Moloch.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My heart, that they should do this detestable thing, to cause Judah to sin.

Interestingly - in the verse where YHVH tells them his name is YHVH, - he said their forefathers knew him by a different name.

Exo 6:2 And Elohiym spoke to Moses and said to him, I am YHVH.

Exo 6:3 And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, and by My name YHVH have I not been known to them.

"… In other words, is the Molech to whom child-sacrifices were offered - Yahweh

"… In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia

"In 1841, both Georg Friedrich Daumer and Friedrich Wilhelm Ghillany published influential works on the topic.[18] These authors came to the conclusion that the Biblical text reflect an original identity of Molek and Yahweh, and that the cult of Yahweh grew out of that of Molek by the abolishing of human sacrifice. The authors find numerous instances of vestigial references to human sacrifice, most notably the law that all firstborns must be "consecrated" or "given" to Yahweh (Exodus 13:2, 22:28)." Moloch - Wikipedia

*

I cannot agree with the statement that the original Hebrews worshiped Baal Molech. Abraham caused the beginning of the Hebrews from his generation and they did not worshiped Baal Molech. The command to Abraham to offer his son Isaac in burning sacrifice was given during a dream of his as a Catch-22 to answer for his anxiety that he could not love Elohim in the same degree and proportion as the pagan Canaanites worshiped their gods. I think I have explained that here before.

 

[Ben Avraham]

First, I'm not a believer in the Abrahamic religions, - thus, as far as I'm concerned none of the miracles are true.

I also find it strange that you believe in some miracles, - including an interacting God, - but then think "some" of the recorded miracles are false.

Of course the Abraham & Isaac story is not real. It is likely a teaching story. As I said, - it shows previous burnt offering sacrifice, and probably represents the change from human Firstborn sacrifice, - to animal only sacrifice.

"Traces of human sacrifices abound in the Biblical records. The command to Abraham (Gen. xxii.) and the subsequent development of the story indicate that the substitution of animal for human victims was traced to patriarchal example. The Ban ("ḥerem") preserves a certain form of the primitive human sacrifice (Schwally, "Kriegsaltertümer"). The first-born naturally belonged to the deity. Originally he was not ransomed, but immolated; ..." http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12984-sacrifice

I've already shown by verse, - that the Bible says not all YHVH encounters were through visions/dreams.

Other names - Ex 6:2 And Elohiym spoke to Moses and said to him, I am YHVH. Exo 6:3 And I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as El Shaddai, and by My name YHVH have I not been known to them.

There are other verses but I don't remember right now.

Some of the other Gods the Hebrew worshiped – Someone else made most of this list (thank you) and I added to it.

Asherah/Anath & and her consort El/ Baal, 1 Kings 11:5, 15: 11 & 12, and elsewhere.

Ba’al-ze’bub/Baal, 11 Kings 1: 2-16, 17: 10-17

Ash’toreth, Solomon and his people worshiped her, 1 Kings 11:5, 11 Kings 23:13.

Ba’al-berith – El-berith, “God of the covenant.” Judg. 9:46, 8:33, 9:4.

Ba’al-peor/Chemosh, The Israelites worshiped him on the Plains of Moab. Num. 25: 1-9, Psa. 106: 28, Hos. 9:10.

Chemosh, Solomon set a temple to him in Jerusalem, along with that to Ash’toreth, 1 Kings 11:7.

Bull Worship/Apis, 1 Kings 12: 28-33, and of course the Golden Calf.

Gad, God of Fortune, Isaiah 65:11

Me’ni, God of Destiny, Isaiah 65: 11

Mal’cham/Moloch, 1 Kings 11: 5, 33 – 11 Kings 23:13

Mero’dach, Worshipped by Nebuchadnezzar, Jer. 51: 44

Mo’lech, Solomon built him a temple at Tophet.

Nehush’tan, Serpent God, 11 Kings 18:4

Rephar, Israelites worshiped him in the desert, Acts 7: 43

Satyr/Pan, I put up a whole page on this awhile back. And a Temple of Pan has been uncovered in Israel.

“In northern Israel, the ancient city of Banyas has been excavated. It was the site of the Banyas spring, one of the sources of the river Jordan. A sanctuary complex to Pan has been found there:”

Tam’muz, Women cried for him at the Jerusalem Temple. Ezek. 8: 14, Jer. 22:18, Amos 8: 10, Zech. 12:10

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead the dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven,.- Jeremiah 7:18

EDIT - Forgot to add about Sacred Sex at the Temple. One is -

1Sa 2:22 Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they had sex with the women that assembled/(PERFORM) at the entrance of the tabernacle of the congregation.

*

Have I ever said here that I believe in miracles? If you think so, could you provide me with some statements to that effect? I don't think you can.

 

[Muffled]

So you admit that for some unfortunate souls god does take the attitude of

Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go
​

Nice guy.


.

I believe I have no clue how you could have construed that from what I said.

 

[Muffled]

No, Muffled, I am not. I am bringing into your memory what the Bible says, in case you had forgotten.

I believe I am not forgetting just recognizing that what you are saying is there is not really there.

 

[Muffled]

Your implied assumption is correct - I am not Jewish. And I obviously realize I could have as many gods as I wish (my chosen number being zero). I was simply walking out a line of thought under the premise of the OP's chosen subject matter- which seems, more or less, to be biblical in relation.

Of course I'm not worried about being held accountable under the first commandment - for myself it is a terribly silly notion - but I realize for others, the threat of punishment is perceived as real. So, I was merely trying to relate to any that understand that such perceptions exist, and to make the point that something without ANY moral basis like the first commandment, is a prime example of a "sin" that should easily be forgiven if ignorance were at play in the "sinner". The first commandment is already inane and ineffectual - to then attempt to employ punishment on an individual for failing to abide by that commandment when they held sincere ignorance of it would be brutal, irrational and just plain butt-headed.

I believe you have already admitted you know about it and your refusal to believe it is a sin.

 

[Skwim]

I believe I have no clue how you could have construed that from what I said.

Your contention was that

". . . there are absolutely none who have not heard the gospel at least once in their lifetimes."​

I then gave you what I considered to be an exception to your claim of "absolutely none."

"There are an estimated 15 uncontacted tribes living in the Peruvian Amazon, all face catastrophe unless their land is protected"​

and asked

"Think they or their immediate ancestors have heard of the gospel?"​

To which you replied

"I believe a very small number might slip through the cracks which is why they would not go immediately to Hell. I believe that is why evangelization is still taking place after the Kingdom has come."​

Prompting me to conclude:

"So you admit that for some unfortunate souls god does take the attitude of: Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go"​

"Slip through the cracks" implies an exception to your claim of absolutely none who have not heard the gospel at least once in their lifetimes. And remaining in ignorance, these "very small number" would be consigned to hell.

.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I believe you have already admitted you know about it and your refusal to believe it is a sin.

I freely admit that I know about the first commandment, sure. I was talking about others who are sincerely ignorant of it - a moral trouble-spot for God and for you believers that you handily ignored in order to take an opportunity to inform me that I am a sinner.

I couldn't care less about the first commandment except for the fact that it is a shining testament to the idiocy of believing in objective moral constructs in the first place.

 

[Muffled]

Your contention was that

". . . there are absolutely none who have not heard the gospel at least once in their lifetimes."​

I then gave you what I considered to be an exception to your claim of "absolutely none."

"There are an estimated 15 uncontacted tribes living in the Peruvian Amazon, all face catastrophe unless their land is protected"​

and asked

"Think they or their immediate ancestors have heard of the gospel?"​

To which you replied

"I believe a very small number might slip through the cracks which is why they would not go immediately to Hell. I believe that is why evangelization is still taking place after the Kingdom has come."​

Prompting me to conclude:

"So you admit that for some unfortunate souls god does take the attitude of: Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go"​

"Slip through the cracks" implies an exception to your claim of absolutely none who have not heard the gospel at least once in their lifetimes. And remaining in ignorance, these "very small number" would be consigned to hell.

.

I believe you should understand that from God's perspective those who do not know now do know before Hell is assigned. As far as God is concerned the future has already happened.

 

[Skwim]

I believe you should understand that from God's perspective those who do not know now do know before Hell is assigned. As far as God is concerned the future has already happened.

Nice to see it when people admit their mistakes.


.

 

[Jenny Collins]

The idea of a place of eternal suffering is viscious. A God who is just, loving and merciful would never do that. And the scriptures people use to laim he does, actually mean something else. The God I worship "punishes to the proper degree." That scripture is found somewhere in Jeremiah, about how God dealt with Israel.

 

[Skwim]

The idea of a place of eternal suffering is viscious. A God who is just, loving and merciful would never do that. And the scriptures people use to laim he does, actually mean something else. The God I worship "punishes to the proper degree." That scripture is found somewhere in Jeremiah, about how God dealt with Israel.

Then what do you do with the scriptures that do show the god of Abraham to be a vicious god?

Matthew 12:47-50
47 “Also, God’s kingdom is like a net that was put into the lake. The net caught many different kinds of fish. 48 It was full, so the fishermen pulled it to the shore. They sat down and put all the good fish in baskets. Then they threw away the bad fish. 49 It will be the same at the end of time. The angels will come and separate the evil people from the godly people. 50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:40-42
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

If they don't mean what they say then just what do they mean?


.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Everyone has an excuse for why the Bible does not mean what it says. Everyone will be given a chance to know what their sins are and to repent and stop sinning. Only those who refuse to repent and stop sinning will be punished.

 

[Skwim]

Everyone has an excuse for why the Bible does not mean what it says. Everyone will be given a chance to know what their sins are and to repent and stop sinning. Only those who refuse to repent and stop sinning will be punished.

When does this happen to everyone? Because a lot of people have died not knowing.


.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Nice to see it when people admit their mistakes.


.

When does this happen to everyone? Because a lot of people have died not knowing.


.

Then what do you do with the scriptures that do show the god of Abraham to be a vicious god?

Matthew 12:47-50
47 “Also, God’s kingdom is like a net that was put into the lake. The net caught many different kinds of fish. 48 It was full, so the fishermen pulled it to the shore. They sat down and put all the good fish in baskets. Then they threw away the bad fish. 49 It will be the same at the end of time. The angels will come and separate the evil people from the godly people. 50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:40-42
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

If they don't mean what they say then just what do they mean?


.

As I already said: Those scriptures are not literal." People have been showing me those scriotures for decades as I have been explaining what they really mean for decades. And always, yes always, they think the are proving someyhing to me that I never considered before.

 

[Skwim]

As I already said: Those scriptures are not literal."

Then because you said "scriptures . . . actually mean something else." how about telling us what those scriptures I posted do mean, as I asked.

People have been showing me those scriotures for decades as I have been explaining what they really mean for decades.

Great! Then you should have no problem whatsoever showing all of us here on RF what they actually mean. And why.

 

[Jenny Collins]

For starters, 2 thessalonians 1:9 says "eternal destruction." That is what fire symbolizes. Will reply to the other scriptures later.

 

[Jenny Collins]

Scripture about cutting hand off is clearly not literal. Hands dont make us stimble and we dont cut them off. It means whatever is a stumbling block we must remove. And what the scripture is supposed to say instead of Hell, is Gehenna which was a garbage dump. Anyway, if you ac ept that it means literal fire, then you must caccept that we should cut our hands off.