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Definition of Magic for debate

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
"Magic is the attempt to either (1) increase and utilize one's free will, or (2) submit ones free will to something viewed as greater."

1. Why call it magic? Free will is more or less unnatural in itself. Obviously it arose from nature, but it allows us to question nature, manipulate it, counter it and use it as we wish. The definition acknowledges that the mind is something more than and separate from the world around it, and can choose how to act.

2. Why two definition? As simple as white v. black magic. The white magician seeks to submit to something higher, consciously or not, such as state, church, god, or even something like materialism or determinism. The black magician seeks to isolate itself from these influences rather than submit to them, to become a separate force.

3. But, do we have free will? The answer seems to be a rather obvious yes. From emotional regulation to modern science, from cognitive therapy to metacognition, it literally all suggests some degree of free will. Perhaps free will is not inherent, no, but the definition accounts for that.
 
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wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Definition of Magic for debate
Depends on the words used, and then the different forms/schools of magic can get very complex in defining them.

Magick (Thelema) is Aleister Crowley's belief about using will as force.

Magic is not knowing how the trick is done. :innocent:
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Depends on the words used, and then the different forms/schools of magic can get very complex in defining them.

Magick (Thelema) is Aleister Crowley's belief about using will as force.

Magic is not knowing how the trick is done. :innocent:

Crowley makes sandwich making magic, which I don't accept. Obviously we aren't discussing stage magic.

It's mostly misdirection and various sleight of hand technqiues.

By what terrible reasoning did you conclude we are discussing stage magic on a religious debate forum? Let's think things through.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
I define "magic" as the application of the energies of consciousness towards the operation of the (usually unseen) laws of nature on its various levels, whether directly, or indirectly (e.g. attempting to manipulate another consciousness to perform an action on your behalf).

The "white magician" IMO rarely attempts to use magic, having understood with wisdom the long-term and widespread effects of magic and their proportional consequences according to the laws of kamma. The "black magician" has a short-term view, performing magic to gratify his or her immediate selfish desires.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Certainly not a definition that I abide by, but running with the premise, some questions for consideration:

You speak of "free will" as being "increased" by magic. How do you quantify free will to measure an increase? Is free will quantifiable at all? If so, isn't it just a "you have it or you don't" or binary variable rather than a continuous variable? If we understand it as a binary variable, how is it possible to do anything other than utilize free will, given it is always "on?"
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
Crowley makes sandwich making magic, which I don't accept.
Unfortunately we can't really know how much Aleister had will power, unless we've witnessed his Magick...

Which is already what you put as your definition of magic. :confused:
Obviously we aren't discussing stage magic.
If that was meant in context of the other reply about magic, 'not knowing how a trick is done'...

Then you've limited the scope of magic, and not seen how far that statement reaches. :innocent:
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
"Magic" (if we aren't talking about stage magic) describes purported human actions that go beyond what we have good reason to think is physically possible.

Magic lives in the intersection between "you can't PROVE it's fake" and "I have no reason to believe it's real."
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Certainly not a definition that I abide by, but running with the premise, some questions for consideration:

You speak of "free will" as being "increased" by magic. How do you quantify free will to measure an increase? Is free will quantifiable at all? If so, isn't it just a "you have it or you don't" or binary variable rather than a continuous variable? If we understand it as a binary variable, how is it possible to do anything other than utilize free will, given it is always "on?"

We do seem to be able to measure free will to ask extent, such as through emotional regulation. We can certainly find ways of telling whether person X or Y is more regulated than the other. It can't be binary because it's a sliding scale, not a yes or no.

"Magic" (if we aren't talking about stage magic) describes purported human actions that go beyond what we have good reason to think is physically possible.

Magic lives in the intersection between "you can't PROVE it's fake" and "I have no reason to believe it's real."

As always you address no aspect of the op, instead striking up your own little discussion instead. Good times :)
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
The "white magician" IMO rarely attempts to use magic, having understood with wisdom the long-term and widespread effects of magic and their proportional consequences according to the laws of kamma.
We all learn from our mistakes, the clauses of Karma isn't to prevent the wise from acting righteously; yet to prevent the ego from challenging.

As we become one with water, its flow doesn't always cause waves; it is the force that is used, which leads to the turmoil.

Thus the master of magic no longer says, "move"; it moves in that direction as it already wanted to. :innocent:
[GALLERY=media, 7883][/GALLERY]
We're inside the Matrix, there is a CPU that listens to faith/trust/will.
2. Why two definition? As simple as white v. black magic.
Because there are multiple quantum dimensions divided by frequency...

Somethings lower frequency (black magic); whilst somethings maintain balance or even increase frequency in some cases (white magic).
3. But, do we have free will?
We're inside a holographic universe, where the whole of this time period has already been seen...

Thus if everything is options given to us, and we don't get to do much other than choose between them; did we really have full control over anything or is it much bigger than we can comprehend in a finite mind. :innocent:
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
... the clauses of Karma isn't to prevent the wise from acting righteously ...
I agree, it's just that the wise seek to gain a more expansive understanding of the consequences of their actions, and are thus more careful when and if they act.

This reminds me of the 31 planes of existence as seen in early Buddhism. The higher one goes in the round of samsara, the more power and sight one gains & possesses ... yet at the same time, there is less motivation to act.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
We do seem to be able to measure free will to ask extent, such as through emotional regulation. We can certainly find ways of telling whether person X or Y is more regulated than the other. It can't be binary because it's a sliding scale, not a yes or no.

Wouldn't that mean they have more "magic" rather than more "free will?" That is, they are better at utilizing the free will they have?
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Magic is the ability to accomplish ones tasks without physical intervention. For instance this response it totally and completely without the use of physical devices, I just think what I want to write and say shazam, and it's sent.
 
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