Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints 'Christian'.

[omega2xx]

Well, I believe that I pretty much DID define a "Christian" as someone who believes in Jesus, didn't I?

(thinking) yes, I do believe I did. I DID also add the 'and claims to be a Christian" to that, because, well...all sorts of people believe in Jesus who don't claim to be Christian. Muslims also believe in Jesus. Not quite the way Christians do, of course, but they do believe in Him. They don't even have problems with the virgin birth. They DO, if I have their beliefs right (and I may not) have problems with the crucifixion/resurrection, but they believe He existed and might even have been the Jewish Messiah.

Again, I COULD have that wrong. Any Muslim reading this who wants to correct me, feel free. I would be grateful. They don't put His teachings at the center of their belief system, though, and they do NOT claim to be Christian.

As to your reference to scripture...I surely did not see the word 'Christian' in there anywhere.

The NT has several letters in it written by apostles to erring churches who were beginning to stray from the 'straight and narrow,' so to speak. In other words, their beliefs weren't, quite, correct. Yet they were....as the disciples of Christ were 'first called Christian' in Antioch (Acts 11:26)...called 'Christian" themselves. So...believing in Jesus is important. Being RIGHT about those beliefs? Not so much. Not to be "Christian."

All that does is mention that other people decided to call this particular group "Christians." Who knows why? Did they call THEMSELVES that? Or, as happened with the Mormons, was the word first applied to them in an extremely mocking manner meant to denigrate and demean, but which was adopted by those followers of Christ as a sort of 'badge of honor?'

That's what happened, with the Baptists, Lutherans, Quakers, the Shakers and the Mormons, come to think of it. It seems a fairly common thing to do, for the despised minority to grab a mocking and supposedly demeaning appellation and turn it around and flaunt it. Certainly the only other two times it was used in the NT, it WAS used in a manner that more than hinted at its demeaning origin.

What the NT does NOT do is associate "Christian" with salvation...or even to believing the 'correct things' about Jesus.

"Christian" means, as you have just indicated, that someone puts the teachings of Jesus ('believes in Jesus") at the center of his belief system, and claims the classification.

Anything else? "True Christian" territory.

Of course the NT associates Christians with salvation. The verse I quoted as a definition(Jn 3:16) says beleif in Jesus results in eternal live---that is salvation. There are many, many many more.

 

[McBell]

I'd have to say that depends upon the word we're talking about. In terms of the word "Christian," you're probably right. In case of other, less subjective words, a definition people can all (or mostly all) agree on is pretty essential for us to be able to communicate effectively with one another.

without looking it up, define the word "the".

 

[Katzpur]

without looking it up, define the word "the".

 

[dianaiad]

What is the reason for learning what the word means?
Is it not to better understand what the person using the word is saying?

In this case it matters not if each person who uses the word means something different by it.
As you will know what is meant by each person when they use the word.

The problem is that of language, and I'm here speaking from the position of a retired English teacher and student of etymology considerably more than I am from my beliefs as a Mormon. Mind you, my position as a Mormon definitely influences my opinion here, because AS a Mormon, the definition of "Christian" impacts my life considerably more closely than it does yours.

"Christian" is an English word. Yeah, we stole it/inherited it/whatever, but big whoop. English is a robber of words. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes, we steal words whenever we can, and we just might track another language down dark alleys, mug it and rifle its pockets for stray vocabulary. This comes from our very irregular beginning as a ******* child of German grammar and French vocabulary. It's why I LIKE English.

So, "Christian" is an English word, used to describe a very broad religious classification under the Abrahamic group. If one group of Christians is allowed to grab it to apply to their...and only their...idea of 'how to believe in Jesus," then what would you call everybody ELSE who also believes in Jesus?

There is no other word.

It is as silly to do this as to claim that ONLY Ford Mustangs can be automobiles. That doesn't, after all, leave the Bugatti anywhere to go, does it?

Then there is this: why is it so important for these folks who want to restrict "Christian" to their own limited view of "believing in Jesus" to do so? There is only one reason...though you are free to figure out another one and tell me, if you would.

that is...to make everybody else 'other.' The FIRST thing the Catholics did with the Reformationists was to declare them 'not Christian." This made it acceptable to hurt them. The Albigensians are a case in point. The Reformationists returned the favor, in spades. Some of 'em still do. "Catholics are not Christian..." and so it was acceptable to grab monasteries, convents, imprison priests, persecute believers...and the Catholics did the same right back as power changed hands.

Now, when Protestants gained power, they then extended the favor to include other Protestants. I have been to the place in Bornmouth where the Pilgrims were jailed before they were allowed to sail west. Once there, our Pilgrim forefathers were not best pleased with the folks of other beliefs that showed up, and in EVERY CASE, the first thing done was to declare them 'not Christian,' which put them in the same classification as every other heathen; not really human.

So...what is the purpose of throwing someone out of the 'Christian' club, so to speak? Really. What is the reason ANYBODY does this?

It is, I submit (and this is where it does impact my life personally) to make that group 'other,' so that one can attack without guilt, and perhaps even attack with approval of ones own group. After all, one does NOT go out and shoot 'fellow Christians,' or do any of the other things that Christian groups have been doing to each other for centuries.

So, yeah....find out what "Christian" means to the one using the word, and then ask why it is so important that he exclude any group that doesn't agree with him ABOUT Christ.

 

[dianaiad]

without looking it up, define the word "the".

Off the top of my head....function word, denoting the unique nature of the noun following it because that noun has already been mentioned "Your turn to make the bed" or is recognized as being unique and everybody already knows what you are talking about: "the President," "the Constitution."

Probably got some of that wrong, though.

 

[dianaiad]

What is the reason for learning what the word means?
Is it not to better understand what the person using the word is saying?

In this case it matters not if each person who uses the word means something different by it.
As you will know what is meant by each person when they use the word.

For certain symbols this is wise: the swastika is a VERY good case in point. However, the purpose of language is to communicate common meanings in order to share information. If a word's meaning changes completely according to who uses it, you may as well babble baby spit. That would make just as much sense.

Mind you,

Of course the NT associates Christians with salvation. The verse I quoted as a definition(Jn 3:16) says beleif in Jesus results in eternal live---that is salvation. There are many, many many more.

Of course it does not. It associates belief in Christ with salvation, but NOT 'Christian.'

 

[McBell]

The problem is that of language, and I'm here speaking from the position of a retired English teacher and student of etymology considerably more than I am from my beliefs as a Mormon. Mind you, my position as a Mormon definitely influences my opinion here, because AS a Mormon, the definition of "Christian" impacts my life considerably more closely than it does yours.

"Christian" is an English word. Yeah, we stole it/inherited it/whatever, but big whoop. English is a robber of words. To paraphrase one of my favorite quotes, we steal words whenever we can, and we just might track another language down dark alleys, mug it and rifle its pockets for stray vocabulary. This comes from our very irregular beginning as a ******* child of German grammar and French vocabulary. It's why I LIKE English.

So, "Christian" is an English word, used to describe a very broad religious classification under the Abrahamic group. If one group of Christians is allowed to grab it to apply to their...and only their...idea of 'how to believe in Jesus," then what would you call everybody ELSE who also believes in Jesus?

There is no other word.

It is as silly to do this as to claim that ONLY Ford Mustangs can be automobiles. That doesn't, after all, leave the Bugatti anywhere to go, does it?

Then there is this: why is it so important for these folks who want to restrict "Christian" to their own limited view of "believing in Jesus" to do so? There is only one reason...though you are free to figure out another one and tell me, if you would.

that is...to make everybody else 'other.' The FIRST thing the Catholics did with the Reformationists was to declare them 'not Christian." This made it acceptable to hurt them. The Albigensians are a case in point. The Reformationists returned the favor, in spades. Some of 'em still do. "Catholics are not Christian..." and so it was acceptable to grab monasteries, convents, imprison priests, persecute believers...and the Catholics did the same right back as power changed hands.

Now, when Protestants gained power, they then extended the favor to include other Protestants. I have been to the place in Bornmouth where the Pilgrims were jailed before they were allowed to sail west. Once there, our Pilgrim forefathers were not best pleased with the folks of other beliefs that showed up, and in EVERY CASE, the first thing done was to declare them 'not Christian,' which put them in the same classification as every other heathen; not really human.

So...what is the purpose of throwing someone out of the 'Christian' club, so to speak? Really. What is the reason ANYBODY does this?

It is, I submit (and this is where it does impact my life personally) to make that group 'other,' so that one can attack without guilt, and perhaps even attack with approval of ones own group. After all, one does NOT go out and shoot 'fellow Christians,' or do any of the other things that Christian groups have been doing to each other for centuries.

So, yeah....find out what "Christian" means to the one using the word, and then ask why it is so important that he exclude any group that doesn't agree with him ABOUT Christ.

OR you can find out what they mean when they use the word and then determine they are not worth talking to about the subject.

 

[McBell]

For certain symbols this is wise: the swastika is a VERY good case in point. However, the purpose of language is to communicate common meanings in order to share information. If a word's meaning changes completely according to who uses it, you may as well babble baby spit. That would make just as much sense.

God
religion
Christian
Muslim
torch
spirit
soul


and you don't want to get me started with phrases

 

[LuisDantas]

I never for an instant think of the LDS and their offshots (controversial as some of them may be) as non-Christian.

Nor do I think there is a whole lot uniting Christians beyond some form of reverence for Jesus.

If you are going to call (say) all numerously significant Baptist churches Christian, there is no good reason to refuse the LDS or SDA that same distinction.

 

[columbus]

But if I tell you what a Christian is, and if Sonny tells you what a Christian is, it seems to me that all you're really learning about the word is that we can't agree what it means.

I learned something very important about God from religionists, like Christians and Muslims.

Ask them if their beliefs are important, and they'll tell you about how huge their religion is. A couple billion adherents each. Ask them what they mean by words like Muslim or Christian and then they shrink dramatically. Catholics are pagans. Shi'ites are polytheists. Etc.

They all splinter into a myriad of cults when you ask them what they mean by their religious affiliation. But they don't stop telling me what God really meant. Because they all think that they know. That is what God wants, apparently.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

I never for an instant think of the LDS and their offshots (controversial as some of them may be) as non-Christian.

Nor do I think there is a whole lot uniting Christians beyond some form of reverence for Jesus.

If you are going to call (say) all numerously significant Baptist churches Christian, there is no good reason to refuse the LDS or SDA that same distinction.

You know what I think it really gets down to? I think it gets down to the fact that certain groups of Christians feel threatened by Mormonism and will do whatever they deem necessary to turn people away from it. Now if a person has a sincere conviction that Jesus Christ is who He claimed to be, if this person feels a genuine pull to the gospel of Jesus Christ and to the idea that Jesus Christ redeemed him from his sins and paved the way for him to return to God's presence someday, he isn't going to even want to consider the idea of a "non-Christian" Church as being the answer to the question of "Which denomination should I join? Who do I want to align myself with? Which doctrines are going to help me reach my goal of best becoming someone who steadfastly follows Him?" It is a simple fact that Mormonism is a growing religion, this even despite the difficulties it's experiencing in retaining new members. Most converts to Mormonism come from other Christian denominations. When someone leaves a Baptist, or Methodist or Lutheran Church and becomes a Mormon, this is often unsettling for those who remain in those denominations. They see Mormonism as "stealing" their members.

What better way to keep this from happening than to portray Mormons as non-Christian? What better way to keep people from even consider looking into Mormonism than to misrepresent its doctrines, history and culture? Make it look as bad a possible and maybe you'll keep a few people from digging just a little bit deeper and discovering that there might actually be something about Mormonism that continues, even after it has been so viciously maligned over its nearly 187 years of existence, to appeal to a wide variety of people. Interestingly enough, it's seldom Catholics who get on this anti-Mormon bandwagon. Maybe it's just that Catholicism is big enough not to feel it necessary to pick on the little guy. But with Mormonism now being the 4th largest Christian denomination in the United States, there is every reason for the more smaller (than Catholicism) mainstream denominations to feel a certain sense of panic. With these folks, the end justifies the means. I'm willing to consider the possibility that some of them are opposed to Mormonism out of a genuine concern that it is not truly Christian, but I am absolutely convinced that in the vast majority of cases, looking for the most damning evidence against it is more a result of fear than anything else, and believing the worst possible things about it is tied more closely to confirmation bias than to genuine commitment to get at the truth.

 

[Katzpur]

I learned something very important about God from religionists, like Christians and Muslims.

Ask them if their beliefs are important, and they'll tell you about how huge their religion is. A couple billion adherents each. Ask them what they mean by words like Muslim or Christian and then they shrink dramatically. Catholics are pagans. Shi'ites are polytheists. Etc.

They all splinter into a myriad of cults when you ask them what they mean by their religious affiliation. But they don't stop telling me what God really meant. Because they all think that they know. That is what God wants, apparently.
Tom

So true! At least up to the last sentence. I really don't think this is what God wants at all.

 

[omega2xx]

For certain symbols this is wise: the swastika is a VERY good case in point. However, the purpose of language is to communicate common meanings in order to share information. If a word's meaning changes completely according to who uses it, you may as well babble baby spit. That would make just as much sense.

Mind you,


Of course it does not. It associates belief in Christ with salvation, but NOT 'Christian.'

If your church doesn't teach that Jesus is Christ, you need to start looking for one that does. It should read Jesus the Christ. Jesus is His name, Chris is His title.

 

[Katzpur]

If your church doesn't teach that Jesus is Christ, you need to start looking for one that does. It should read Jesus the Christ. Jesus is His name, Chris is His title.

What on earth? The Book of Mormon refers to Jesus as the Christ 398 times in its 531 pages. Our leaders refer to Him as the Christ practically every time they mention His name -- which is tens of thousands of times every year. Are you seriously quibbling over the presence or absence of the word "the"?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I am somewhat out of step, and tend to look at how a church acts and behaves rather than the details of their beliefs and dogma.

That's not "out of step" at all!

In fact, in order to ID His disciples, (as opposed to those making false claims,)
Jesus himself mentioned action. He stated at John 13:34-35, ".....By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves."

(He also said to many calling him, "Lord, Lord", "get away from me, you workers of iniquity!" -- Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[dianaiad]

If your church doesn't teach that Jesus is Christ, you need to start looking for one that does. It should read Jesus the Christ. Jesus is His name, Chris is His title.

????

(grin)

I have to admit that right now I'm feeling a bit 'wait...what?" about this sort of thing.

On another forum, a few days ago, a rabid anti-Mormon spent three very long posts and a great deal of diatribe criticizing us for writing/saying "Jesus the Christ" too much. Why not, says she, use "Jesus" like REAL Christians do?

At this point, I figure that no matter what we call Him: Jesus, Jesus Christ, Jesus THE Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son of God...SOMEONE will give us grief about it and say 'see? This PROVES you aren't a real Christian!" the way this woman did.

Very freeing, actually. Since it's not possible to please everybody, and no matter what we do SOMEONE will take issue with it, then we may as well just do and say what we think is right and not worry about you folks.

The only reason I get involved with the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing is because....well...have YOU ever had rocks thrown at you because you weren't a Christian and had no business on a 'good Christian street?"

I have.

Have YOU ever been refused a job because the employers said that Mormons weren't Christians?

I have (and don't get me wrong here: I have NO problem with the owners of an evangelical Christian private school not wanting to hire a Mormon).

My entire high school career was made a misery because a group decided that as a Mormon, I was a good target.

One of my favorite missionary memories is of being shown to the front of a church chapel...ostensibly so that I could 'see better' (in reality it was so that I could be SEEN better, my companion and me). The preacher then spent half an hour pounding the pulpit and telling the congregation about how those handsome young Mormon missionary men were minions of Satan there to seduce their daughters and haul them away to Utah to be slaves of sin.

I didn't know whether to be amused or scared; there was, after all, an entire congregation of people between me and the doors, but...

My companion and I were two very primly dressed 22 year old women in below the knee skirts and sturdy walking shoes. Sorta messed up the preacher's punch line.

The thing is, omega, I don't really care whether anybody thinks that 'Christian' means 'saved,' or not....the problem is when they start insisting that everybody else agree with them so that the way can be cleared to do nasty things to whoever they just kicked out of the club.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

"Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity."

"Mormonism categorizes itself within Christianity, and nearly all Mormons self-identify as Christian."

/case

 

[omega2xx]

What on earth? The Book of Mormon refers to Jesus as the Christ 398 times in its 531 pages. Our leaders refer to Him as the Christ practically every time they mention His name -- which is tens of thousands of times every year. Are you seriously quibbling over the presence or absence of the word "the"?

That was a response to something dianaid said.

 

[omega2xx]

????

(grin)

I have to admit that right now I'm feeling a bit 'wait...what?" about this sort of thing.

On another forum, a few days ago, a rabid anti-Mormon spent three very long posts and a great deal of diatribe criticizing us for writing/saying "Jesus the Christ" too much. Why not, says she, use "Jesus" like REAL Christians do?

At this point, I figure that no matter what we call Him: Jesus, Jesus Christ, Jesus THE Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, the Son of God, the Only Begotten Son of God...SOMEONE will give us grief about it and say 'see? This PROVES you aren't a real Christian!" the way this woman did.

Very freeing, actually. Since it's not possible to please everybody, and no matter what we do SOMEONE will take issue with it, then we may as well just do and say what we think is right and not worry about you folks.

The only reason I get involved with the "Mormons aren't Christian" thing is because....well...have YOU ever had rocks thrown at you because you weren't a Christian and had no business on a 'good Christian street?"

I have.

Have YOU ever been refused a job because the employers said that Mormons weren't Christians?

I have (and don't get me wrong here: I have NO problem with the owners of an evangelical Christian private school not wanting to hire a Mormon).

My entire high school career was made a misery because a group decided that as a Mormon, I was a good target.

One of my favorite missionary memories is of being shown to the front of a church chapel...ostensibly so that I could 'see better' (in reality it was so that I could be SEEN better, my companion and me). The preacher then spent half an hour pounding the pulpit and telling the congregation about how those handsome young Mormon missionary men were minions of Satan there to seduce their daughters and haul them away to Utah to be slaves of sin.

I didn't know whether to be amused or scared; there was, after all, an entire congregation of people between me and the doors, but...

My companion and I were two very primly dressed 22 year old women in below the knee skirts and sturdy walking shoes. Sorta messed up the preacher's punch line.

The thing is, omega, I don't really care whether anybody thinks that 'Christian' means 'saved,' or not....the problem is when they start insisting that everybody else agree with them so that the way can be cleared to do nasty things to whoever they just kicked out of the club.

Evidently I misunderstood something you said. I have not said Mormons are not Christians. I don't dislike Mormons. I had 2 of them come to my house for about a month and have dinner with me as we discussed our differences. I dislike Mormon theology. I dislike it because much of it is not Biblical.

 

[dianaiad]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

"Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity."

"Mormonism categorizes itself within Christianity, and nearly all Mormons self-identify as Christian."

/case

Well, yeah. That's pretty much it.

I rather like the "Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter-day saint movement of Restorationist Christianity." it is precisely correct.

the hierarchical structure goes this way:

Theism
Abrahamic theism
Christianity
Restorationist
Mormonism
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.

Thanks.