Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

[Cassandra]

That is the question I want to ask.

I am not asking if it is "pagan". Putting up a Christmas tree can be called "pagan". Using three as your lucky number is pagan. All kind of things can be called "pagan". Many Jewish customs and symbols go back to paganism as well. That means very little. Then every human being on Earth can be called "pagan" in one way or another.

The question is: Do you believe Satanism was once a Pagan tradition of a people in his own right? I do not mean a minor cult or sect either. Every society harbors groups on the fringe of society who go against the grain and can even do the weirdest things. But that does not make them representatives of their traditions even if they are born in them and use similar symbols and customs. We do not say criminals represent Christianity, because criminals are Christian, engage in Christian celebrations, have Christian names, etc. When you go against broadly accepted ideas or conduct you are no longer representing the tradition. You rather are a "Satan", an opposer. There are always people seeking opposition.It is pagan to allow such opposition if they respects ancestral traditions, but that is not the same as identifying with them. The overwhelming majority of people in Pagan traditions do not.

So what is your take?

 

[1137]

If we accept Satan is a more recent, perverted version of something older than yes, absolutely. Forget all the "Luciferian" connections between like Set, Prometheus, Satan, Odin, etc, but just many of the ideals and symbolism is the same. Serpent worship is one of the oldest things in the world is seems, likely because of the never setting serpent constellation in the northern hemisphere. Rebirth/evolution, individual immortality, and so on go way, way back. In the pyramid texts, the oldest known scriptures in the world, the dead Unas literally becomes deified (by Set) in such a way that he feeds of the innards of the gods, and can wish the death of the very gods.

 

[Cassandra]

If we accept Satan is a more recent, perverted version of something older than yes, absolutely. Forget all the "Luciferian" connections between like Set, Prometheus, Satan, Odin, etc, but just many of the ideals and symbolism is the same. Serpent worship is one of the oldest things in the world is seems, likely because of the never setting serpent constellation in the northern hemisphere. Rebirth/evolution, individual immortality, and so on go way, way back. In the pyramid texts, the oldest known scriptures in the world, the dead Unas literally becomes deified (by Set) in such a way that he feeds of the innards of the gods, and can wish the death of the very gods.

That is like saying people are Pagans because they ride on horse back. And horse back riding is everywhere in Pagan traditions.

Sorry but making all these superficial connections and associations is easy and the Internet is swamped with people creating their own fantasies on the basis of that.

First define Satan and prove that Satan is indeed Seth, and Seth is indeed Prometheus, and Prometheus is Lucifer. And the same people worshiped all of these and used snakes. And that this was not just a snake cult but a real tradition of a people.

Tell me what people, living where, how where they known. Where did they come from. What was their language. Who where their ancestors. That kind of thing. Mostly when people worship one God as highest that is a clear sign of a cult, not a Pagan tradition. Within societies you have all kinds of cults. Cults can easily be exported. You can export being a Scotsman.

For instance we know the Abrahamic/Islamic cult started with Abraham making a pact with a God that bound him and his offspring. The Jewish cult started with Jacob creating a new bond with another God for him and his off-spring. And then Christian cult was started when Jesus created a new covenant with his father (again another God) that bound all his followers. Those are cult practices found within Pagan traditions but rejected as dangerous and wrong. When cults get millions of adherents and start to rule the whole of society they become traditions, but a different kind of traditions than Pagan traditions, because they are based on a bond with a particular God. Pagan traditions are not. Pagan traditions are not bound to any God in particular. They are polytheistic.

 

[1137]

That is like saying people are Pagans because they ride on horse back. And horse back riding is everywhere in Pagan traditions.

Sorry but making all these superficial connections and associations is easy and the Internet is swamped with people creating their own fantasies on the basis of that.

First define Satan and prove that Satan is indeed Seth, and Seth is indeed Prometheus, and Prometheus is Lucifer. And the same people worshiped all of these and used snakes. And that this was not just a snake cult but a real tradition of a people.

Tell me what people, living where, how where they known. Where did they come from. What was their language. Who where their ancestors. That kind of thing. Mostly when people worship one God as highest that is a clear sign of a cult, not a Pagan tradition. Within societies you have all kinds of cults. Cults can easily be exported. You can export being a Scotsman.

I didn't say any of this, just pointed out that these similar ideologies and forms of worship are quite ancient. You're more than welcome to read the pyramid texts, they're online for free. Misrepresenting a members position is a violation of the rules, I suggest you just stick to what one says.

 

[The Adept]

Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[1137]

Reductio ad absurdum.

Can you elaborate?

 

[Mindmaster]

That is the question I want to ask.

I am not asking if it is "pagan". Putting up a Christmas tree can be called "pagan". Using three as your lucky number is pagan. All kind of thins can be called "pagan". Many Jewish customs and symbols go back to paganism as well. That means very little. Then every human being on Earth can be called "pagan" in one way or another.

The question is: Do you believe Satanism was once a Pagan tradition of a people in his own right? I do not mean a minor cult or sect either. Every society harbors groups on the fringe of society who go against the grain and can even do the weirdest things. But that does not make them representatives of their traditions even if they are born in them and use similar symbols and customs. We do not say criminals represent Christianity, because criminals are Christian, engage in Christian celebrations, have Christian names, etc. When you go against broadly accepted ideas or conduct you are no longer representing the tradition. You rather are a "Satan", an opposer. There are always people seeking opposition.It is pagan to allow such opposition if they respects ancestral traditions, but that is not the same as identifying with them. The overwhelming majority of people in Pagan traditions do not.

So what is your take?

I think Satanism is a modern path on all accounts, and although some parody of Satanism existed via hellfire clubs in the past, they weren't full timers. Satanism has evolved from merely being something that was a resistance movement to apparent dogma, to something of a personal enrichment/advancement oriented path. While we borrow "Satan" as a name our idea of the thing has nothing to do with Judeo-Christian conceptions at this point, and certainly has nothing to do with offending them.

Satanism as it stands now disavows tradition basically, and rather demands that things be seen/known with one's own eyes and brain. In it's purest form, it even disavows it's own traditions, lol. (Rejection of even the incidental dogma one gets from forming a path in the first place...)

I don't consider Satanism as any form of paganism because it lacks any of the basic beliefs associated with that notion, whatever else you are on about is just confusing the crap out of me.

 

[Onyx]

Reductio ad absurdum.

Go away.

 

[The Adept]

Can you elaborate?

I could translate?

 

[1137]

Go away.

Do you know what he's talking about?

I could translate?

I just want to know why you said "reducto ad absurdum," there was no context.

 

[Cassandra]

I didn't say any of this, just pointed out that these similar ideologies and forms of worship are quite ancient. You're more than welcome to read the pyramid texts, they're online for free. Misrepresenting a members position is a violation of the rules, I suggest you just stick to what one says.

Finding similarities is easy. We have 99% similarity with chimpanzees as well.

You do not answer my questions. I see nothing that would make Satanism more than a cult with beliefs about Satan being Seth etc. The fact that it is centered around Satan like the Dionysian cult around Dionysus only proves that members are members of a cult challenging main stream traditions rather than following mainstream polytheistic Pagan traditions.

Satanists are centered around Satan. That Satan means opposer, is sign that we deal with counter cult rather than a peoples tradition. Also the fact that many Satanists like to adopt practices generally rejected by main stream society is a tell-tale sign.

What Satanists are basically supporting is that because Christianity depicts Pagans as Satanists, Satanists are a Pagan tradition. But Pagans never felt Satanists, and the ideas and customs I read from Satanists do not represent mainstream Pagan ideas or customs, more like violations of them.

Again. Because there are people in any society that go against the grain, does not make them representatives of that societies traditions. On the contrary. One should not mistake the tolerance of Pagan society for people with different Nature as identification with them. It is just tolerance.

 

[1137]

Finding similarities is easy. We have 99% similarity with chimpanzees as well.

You do not answer my questions. I see nothing that would make Satanism more than a cult with beliefs about Satan being Seth etc. The fact that it is centered around Satan, the Dionysian cult around Dionysus only proves that members are members of a cult challenging main stream traditions rather than following mainstream polytheistic Pagan traditions.

Satanists are centered around Satan. That Satan means opposer, is sign that we deal with counter cult rather than a peoples tradition. Also the fact that many Satanists like to adopt practices generally rejected by main stream society is a tell-tale sign.

What Satanists are basically supporting is that because Christianity depicts Pagans as Satanists, Satanists are a Pagan tradition. But Pagans never felt Satanists, and the ideas and customs I read from Satanists do not represent mainstream Pagan ideas or customs, more like violations of them.

Again. Because their are people in any society that go against the grain, does not make them representatives of that societies traditions. On the contrary.

I'm reporting you for repeatedly debating things I've never said.

 

[Onyx]

Do you know what he's talking about?

Yeah, but I was rude. I'm sorry @The Adept.

 

[1137]

Yeah, but I was rude. I'm sorry @The Adept.

Haha well can you explain? It's getting disheartening that these topics keep popping up with literally no worth while discussion.

 

[The Adept]

In so much as the cults of Jehovah and Allah were anti-the other gods.

 

[Mindmaster]

Finding similarities is easy. We have 99% similarity with chimpanzees as well.

You do not answer my questions. I see nothing that would make Satanism more than a cult with beliefs about Satan being Seth etc. The fact that it is centered around Satan, the Dionysian cult around Dionysus only proves that members are members of a cult challenging main stream traditions rather than following mainstream polytheistic Pagan traditions.

There are no beliefs in Satanism even in a theistic sense, those people would have a direct interaction/interface with Satan so they at least subjectively are directly aware of things.

Satanists are centered around Satan. That Satan means opposer, is sign that we deal with counter cult rather than a peoples tradition. Also the fact that many Satanists like to adopt practices generally rejected by main stream society is a tell-tale sign.

Most Satanists just see Satan as a symbol, and are actually centered around themselves. There are also no cohesive set of practices that all Satanists partake in. Rituals are optional, magick is optional, and even wearing black clothes is optional. One of the Satanists I know is addicted to pink... I mean addicted...

What Satanists are basically supporting is that because Christianity depicts Pagans as Satanists, Satanists are a Pagan tradition. But Pagans never felt Satanists, and the ideas and customs I read from Satanists do not represent mainstream Pagan ideas or customs, more like violations of them.

Again. Because their are people in any society that go against the grain, does not make them representatives of that societies traditions. On the contrary.

Satanists have absolutely no concern of what Christians think on anything, just like they have barely any concern of what we think of them. Neopaganism is a corruption of old beliefs on a technical basis, and really is an injected with nebulous concepts from Eastern traditions rather than having any lineage to any sort of religions in the past. Some pagans (reconstructive) do actually only practice what they've been able to dig up, but those guys are pretty rare.

Satanists don't merely "reject" Christian dogma, an anti-dogma would create a new dogma based on another one. More, they make their own way and have full reign to explore and test these ideas themselves. At its core, it is pure spiritual/intellectual freedom -- there is no tradition that is worth keeping to a Satanist unless they just purely enjoy it.

 

[The Adept]

Do you know what he's talking about?



I just want to know why you said "reducto ad absurdum," there was no context.

A therefor A or A therefor B. So to speak.

 

[1137]

A therefor A or A therefor B. So to speak.

Can you in any way try and coherently tie this in with the OP, or are you trolling?

 

[Mindmaster]

A therefor A or A therefor B. So to speak.

I'm pretty sure that I have no idea what is going on in this post at all, because the points aren't well made. I've posted twice, and I still don't like my responses.

I've pretty much come down to the fact that the entire OP is a false cause fallacy, and really doesn't mean anything.

It's also in the wrong forum. Should be in LHP DIR.

 

[Cassandra]

I didn't say any of this, just pointed out that these similar ideologies and forms of worship are quite ancient. You're more than welcome to read the pyramid texts, they're online for free. Misrepresenting a members position is a violation of the rules, I suggest you just stick to what one says.

Again that means nothing. There is great similarity between all kinds of worship and a loose reference to some old text does not prove a remarkable relationship between you and the people that wrote that text. Basically all religions have huge similarities. Chimpanzees have 99% similarities with humans, but humans distinguish themselves on the basis of that 1%. That why it really is a fallacy to say, this old text has much in common with Satanism.

Besides I abundantly made clear Pagan traditions are mainstream traditions of peoples living together sharing land, customs, language, traditions and societal social norms. Not just ideas. That is modern take on religion. Someone writes a book and then his followers become a cult/sect. But that is not Pagan traditions. Pagan traditions are not made by leaders, but grow naturally throughout history of a people.