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Begging the Question

Zosimus

Active Member
That is not only unpolite, it is also incoherent.
Are you trying to win an award for the number of errors you can squeeze into one sentence?

First of all, it's not unpolite but impolite. Second, the idiom is not only x but also y. Third, you cannot join two complete sentences together with just a comma. Finally, what's wrong with just using the word and? Take a moment, grab your dictionary, and look up the word concision.

It is irrational to doubt that eyes, or senses in general, are reliable and ask another to use them.
No, it is not. Use your eyes, but do not trust them. Anyway, most people here assume that I'm lying about my religious outlook anyway.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
"I have heard a lot of arguments, but I have yet to hear one against YEC that doesn’t start with the assumption that YEC is wrong."

This is exactly what you said, I provided just that. The original point of your post was too retarded to address another way. You should be ashamed of yourself for wasting the few KB necessary to hold your post.
I will not bother to address all of your stupidity. I will merely address the point you made in the last sentence, in which you said "No assumption here."

I refer you to An Essay on Radiometric Dating

You will note that this is no kind of Christian website.

I will content myself with referring to the assumptions of radiocarbon dating.

"Radiocarbon dating depends on several assumptions. One is that the thing being dated is organic in origin. Radiocarbon dating does not work on anything inorganic, like rocks or fossils. Only things that once were alive and now are dead: bones, teeth, flesh, leaves, etc. The second assumption is that the organism in question got its carbon from the atmosphere. A third is that the thing has remained closed to C14 since the organism from which it was created died. The fourth one is that we know what the concentration of atmospheric C14 was when the organism lived and died."

Thus, your claim that radioactive dating does not rely on assumptions is false.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Are you trying to win an award for the number of errors you can squeeze into one sentence?

First of all, it's not unpolite but impolite. Second, the idiom is not only x but also y. Third, you cannot join two complete sentences together with just a comma. Finally, what's wrong with just using the word and? Take a moment, grab your dictionary, and look up the word concision.

Nope. I told you. Any coments about my Englisch are yust evidence to me that you are loosing. I might be wrrong, but it's feel gut.

Unless you also posts in German, Swedish, or Italians forums, tooo. Hope not, I might not be apple to enjoy that.

No, it is not. Use your eyes, but do not trust them. Anyway, most people here assume that I'm lying about my religious outlook anyway.

Obviously. Since they cannot trust what they read :)

Ciao

- ciole
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
I will defer to your expertise in the area of loose.

Obviously, since I know when someone is loosing. Or losing, in your case. Lol.

These criteria are pretty reliable:

1) pointing out errors in the grammar or spelling of non native English speakers, instead of addressing the point

2) threats of an infinite destiny in hell.

You indulge in the first, but not in the latter. Unless you believe that we both will meet in the eternal afterlife.

By the way, shouldn't it be "in the area of loosing"? Please enthrall me with your native language skills.

Ciao

- viole
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Logical arguments are not based on one’s senses. They are based on rational thought.

For example, let’s suppose that I wonder whether truth exists. If I postulate that truth exists, then Q.E.D. But what if I postulate that truth does not exist? Then I am claiming that the phrase “truth does not exist” is a true statement. This is a contradiction. Therefore, truth must exist (proof by contradiction). No sense experience is required to gain this knowledge

My new conclusion is that you are a fool. Deluded in your thinking. Without "sense" of anything, do you really believe that you would ever come to have any thoughts about anything? Take the abstract status of your "mind" within your brain to its most fundamental - your consciousness exists as the very beginning of "you" and you are free to do with the cognitive power of this unfettered "mind" as you wish. One thing, however, there is NOTHING - literally NOTHING to interact with. You've just "come into being" as nothing more than your consciousness and there exists nothing to spur your thoughts, nothing to even wonder the "truth" of. Where do you believe that path leads?

I can tell you... it leads nowhere.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I will not bother to address all of your stupidity. I will merely address the point you made in the last sentence, in which you said "No assumption here."

I refer you to An Essay on Radiometric Dating

You will note that this is no kind of Christian website.

It's not a Christian website... just a random website with a Creationist writing on something they don't understand very well.

I will content myself with referring to the assumptions of radiocarbon dating.

"Radiocarbon dating depends on several assumptions. One is that the thing being dated is organic in origin. Radiocarbon dating does not work on anything inorganic, like rocks or fossils.

Radiocarbon is just one means of using radiometric dating... Radiocarbon is for Carbon 14 isotopes. It's commonly used for biological entities because we are all made of carbon and have a certain percentage of C14 isotopes in our body relative to normal C12 atoms.

There are tens of other ways to do radiometric dating without using carbon at all......

See:

Uranium-lead dating method[edit]
Main article: uranium-lead dating

Uranium-lead radiometric dating involves using Uranium-235 or Uranium-238 to date a substance's absolute age. This scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.[13][18] An error margin of 2–5% has been achieved on younger Mesozoic rocks.[19]

Uranium-lead dating is often performed on the mineral zircon (ZrSiO4), though it can be used on other materials, such as baddeleyite, as well as monazite (see: monazite geochronology).[20] Zircon and baddeleyite incorporate uranium atoms into their crystalline structure as substitutes for zirconium, but strongly reject lead. Zircon has a very high closure temperature, is resistant to mechanical weathering and is very chemically inert. Zircon also forms multiple crystal layers during metamorphic events, which each may record an isotopic age of the event. In situ micro-beam analysis can be achieved via laser ICP-MS or SIMS techniques.[21]

One of its great advantages is that any sample provides two clocks, one based on uranium-235's decay to lead-207 with a half-life of about 700 million years, and one based on uranium-238's decay to lead-206 with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years, providing a built-in crosscheck that allows accurate determination of the age of the sample even if some of the lead has been lost. This can be seen in the concordia diagram, where the samples plot along an errorchron (straight line) which intersects the concordia curve at the age of the sample.

Samarium-neodymium dating method[edit]
Main article: Samarium-neodymium dating
This involves the alpha-decay of 147Sm to 143Nd with a half-life of 1.06 x 1011 years. Accuracy levels of within twenty million years in two-and-a-half billion years are achievable.[22]

Potassium-argon dating method[edit]
Main article: Potassium-argon dating
This involves electron capture or positron decay of potassium-40 to argon-40. Potassium-40 has a half-life of 1.3 billion years, and so this method is applicable to the oldest rocks. Radioactive potassium-40 is common in micas, feldspars, and hornblendes, though the closure temperature is fairly low in these materials, about 350 °C (mica) to 500 °C (hornblende).

Rubidium-strontium dating method[edit]
Main article: Rubidium-strontium dating
This is based on the beta decay of rubidium-87 to strontium-87, with a half-life of 50 billion years. This scheme is used to date old igneous and metamorphic rocks, and has also been used to date lunar samples. Closure temperatures are so high that they are not a concern. Rubidium-strontium dating is not as precise as the uranium-lead method, with errors of 30 to 50 million years for a 3-billion-year-old sample.

Uranium-thorium dating method[edit]
Main article: uranium-thorium dating
A relatively short-range dating technique is based on the decay of uranium-234 into thorium-230, a substance with a half-life of about 80,000 years. It is accompanied by a sister process, in which uranium-235 decays into protactinium-231, which has a half-life of 34,300 years.

While uranium is water-soluble, thorium and protactinium are not, and so they are selectively precipitated into ocean-floor sediments, from which their ratios are measured. The scheme has a range of several hundred thousand years. A related method is ionium-thorium dating, which measures the ratio of ionium (thorium-230) to thorium-232 in ocean sediment.

Radiometric dating - Wikipedia

Only things that once were alive and now are dead: bones, teeth, flesh, leaves, etc.

The second assumption is that the organism in question got its carbon from the atmosphere.

That would be a pretty damn good assumption considering plants literally take the carbon out of carbon dioxide and fix it into their bodies, which is then eaten by all sorts of animals. Not only is it assumption, I bet their is ample amounts of evidence that this is occurring all the time.

A third is that the thing has remained closed to C14 since the organism from which it was created died. The fourth one is that we know what the concentration of atmospheric C14 was when the organism lived and died."

Thus, your claim that radioactive dating does not rely on assumptions is false.

You don't even know what radioactive dating is apparently.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
It's not a Christian website... just a random website with a Creationist writing on something they don't understand very well.



Radiocarbon is just one means of using radiometric dating... Radiocarbon is for Carbon 14 isotopes. It's commonly used for biological entities because we are all made of carbon and have a certain percentage of C14 isotopes in our body relative to normal C12 atoms.

There are tens of other ways to do radiometric dating without using carbon at all......

See:

Uranium-lead dating method[edit]
Main article: uranium-lead dating

Uranium-lead radiometric dating involves using Uranium-235 or Uranium-238 to date a substance's absolute age. This scheme has been refined to the point that the error margin in dates of rocks can be as low as less than two million years in two-and-a-half billion years.[13][18] An error margin of 2–5% has been achieved on younger Mesozoic rocks.[19]

Uranium-lead dating is often performed on the mineral zircon (ZrSiO4), though it can be used on other materials, such as baddeleyite, as well as monazite (see: monazite geochronology).[20] Zircon and baddeleyite incorporate uranium atoms into their crystalline structure as substitutes for zirconium, but strongly reject lead. Zircon has a very high closure temperature, is resistant to mechanical weathering and is very chemically inert. Zircon also forms multiple crystal layers during metamorphic events, which each may record an isotopic age of the event. In situ micro-beam analysis can be achieved via laser ICP-MS or SIMS techniques.[21]

One of its great advantages is that any sample provides two clocks, one based on uranium-235's decay to lead-207 with a half-life of about 700 million years, and one based on uranium-238's decay to lead-206 with a half-life of about 4.5 billion years, providing a built-in crosscheck that allows accurate determination of the age of the sample even if some of the lead has been lost. This can be seen in the concordia diagram, where the samples plot along an errorchron (straight line) which intersects the concordia curve at the age of the sample.

Samarium-neodymium dating method[edit]
Main article: Samarium-neodymium dating
This involves the alpha-decay of 147Sm to 143Nd with a half-life of 1.06 x 1011 years. Accuracy levels of within twenty million years in two-and-a-half billion years are achievable.[22]

Potassium-argon dating method[edit]
Main article: Potassium-argon dating
This involves electron capture or positron decay of potassium-40 to argon-40. Potassium-40 has a half-life of 1.3 billion years, and so this method is applicable to the oldest rocks. Radioactive potassium-40 is common in micas, feldspars, and hornblendes, though the closure temperature is fairly low in these materials, about 350 °C (mica) to 500 °C (hornblende).

Rubidium-strontium dating method[edit]
Main article: Rubidium-strontium dating
This is based on the beta decay of rubidium-87 to strontium-87, with a half-life of 50 billion years. This scheme is used to date old igneous and metamorphic rocks, and has also been used to date lunar samples. Closure temperatures are so high that they are not a concern. Rubidium-strontium dating is not as precise as the uranium-lead method, with errors of 30 to 50 million years for a 3-billion-year-old sample.

Uranium-thorium dating method[edit]
Main article: uranium-thorium dating
A relatively short-range dating technique is based on the decay of uranium-234 into thorium-230, a substance with a half-life of about 80,000 years. It is accompanied by a sister process, in which uranium-235 decays into protactinium-231, which has a half-life of 34,300 years.

While uranium is water-soluble, thorium and protactinium are not, and so they are selectively precipitated into ocean-floor sediments, from which their ratios are measured. The scheme has a range of several hundred thousand years. A related method is ionium-thorium dating, which measures the ratio of ionium (thorium-230) to thorium-232 in ocean sediment.





That would be a pretty damn good assumption considering plants literally take the carbon out of carbon dioxide and fix it into their bodies, which is then eaten by all sorts of animals. Not only is it assumption, I bet their is ample amounts of evidence that this is occurring all the time.
I bet their is.

You don't even know what radioactive dating is apparently.
You don't even know what the topic of the discussion is.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I bet their is.

And now we get to the willful ignorance. No wonder you started bashing me immediately; as soon as science enters the discussion and you get close to getting obvious answers to obvious questions, you'd have to subterfuge the conversation instead of addressing an actual point. You "bet their is" all kinds of radiometric dating. Here is another in precision:

"Potassium-Argon. Potassium is an abundant element in the Earth's crust. One isotope, potassium-40, is radioactive and decays to two different daughter products, calcium-40 and argon-40, by two different decay methods. This is not a problem because the production ratio of these two daughter products is precisely known, and is always constant: 11.2% becomes argon-40 and 88.8% becomes calcium-40. It is possible to date some rocks by the potassium-calcium method, but this is not often done because it is hard to determine how much calcium was initially present. Argon, on the other hand, is a gas. Whenever rock is melted to become magma or lava, the argon tends to escape. Once the molten material hardens, it begins to trap the new argon produced since the hardening took place. In this way the potassium-argon clock is clearly reset when an igneous rock is formed.

In its simplest form, the geologist simply needs to measure the relative amounts of potassium-40 and argon-40 to date the rock. The age is given by a relatively simple equation:

t = h x ln[1 + (argon-40)/(0.112 x (potassium-40))]/ln(2)

where t is the time in years, h is the half-life, also in years, and ln is the natural logarithm."

Radiometric Dating

Dr. Wiens has a PhD in Physics, with a minor in Geology. His PhD thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites, including surface exposure dating. He was employed at Caltech's Division of Geological & Planetary Sciences at the time of writing the first edition. He is presently employed in the Space & Atmospheric Sciences Group at the Los Alamos National Laboratory.


You don't even know what the topic of the discussion is.

The topic of discussion is the use of the "Begging the Question" fallacy in discussions on YEC. The irony being that you are begging the question when it comes to claiming how much I know about the topic at hand.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
It's not a Christian website... just a random website with a Creationist writing on something they don't understand very well.

Quote edited for brevity.
Critical Reasoning 101

Welcome to Zosimus’ critical reasoning primer. Since you don’t seem to have the slightest clue about logic and since I am a critical reasoning teacher, I figured I would write this little post to try to help you get a clue of some sort.

Let’s imagine that you’re going to take a test that involves critical reasoning. It may be the GMAT, GRE, LSAT, or another test. It really doesn’t matter. Most of them are structured in a similar way. To start, let’s look at the simplified problem below:


John lives in Chicago. He is 7’ tall (2.13m). Therefore, he must be great at basketball.

The conclusion above relies on which of the following assumptions?


When doing a problem such as this one, we should always read the question first. This is important because it tells us what we need to do with the information in the stimulus. The question here tells us two important things: we are looking for an assumption and the argument has a conclusion. Therefore, our first goal will be to find the conclusion.

Conclusions generally have the following characteristics:

1. At the end of the stimulus.
2. Contain an indicator word such as therefore, hence, thus, so, etc.
3. Contain a modal verb such as must, will, should, can, may, etc.
4. Contain a form of the verb to be such as be, is, are, was, were, etc.
5. Can pass the why? test.


As you can probably see, the conclusion of the stimulus is: John must be great at basketball. This sentence is at the end, contains an indicator word (therefore), contains a modal verb (must), contains a form of the verb to be (be), and can pass the why? test.

What is the why? test? Basically, we should be able to state the conclusion and use other parts of the argument to answer the question why? In this case, we can say:

John must be great at basketball. Why? Because he is 7’ tall.

Accordingly, we see that the why? test not only confirms that we have the right conclusion but also reveals the reason that supports the conclusion. The statement “He is 7’ tall” is a reason that supports the conclusion. If you know something of logic, you may know these reasons by the word premises. Premises are the reasons that are explicitly stated in the stimulus. You may also note that the stimulus contains the sentence “John lives in Chicago.” Does this answer the why? test? No. Accordingly, this is useless information that we do not need to solve the problem.

The argument also relies on assumptions. For our purposes, assumptions are reasons that are not stated in the stimulus. Like premises, assumptions can be elicited using the why? test. In this case, the argument relies on two assumptions:

1. Tall people are great at basketball.
2. A person who is 7’ tall is a tall person.

Exact methods for discovering assumptions are out of the scope of this article, but for simplicity sake, I’ll simply point out that the conclusion contains new, surprising words (great at basketball), which are not mentioned in the premise. Thus, an assumption is required as a kind of a bridge to connect the facts in the premise to the claims in the conclusion.

Perhaps, however, you are skeptical that these two reasons really are assumptions. There is a simple test to determine whether they are assumptions. It is called the negation test. Basically, if either of the assumptions is negated, the conclusion will be disproved. Let’s try it.

1. Tall people are TERRIBLE at basketball.

Does this statement, if true, disprove the conclusion? Absolutely!

2. A person who is 7’ tall is NOT a tall person.

Does this statement, if true, disprove the conclusion? Without a doubt!


With these principles in mind, let us turn to the post you have made. Your post contains no conclusion—so we’ll have to infer the intent of the author. In this case, I will assume that the author’s conclusion is: Radiometric dating that produces dates older than 6,000 years is correct most of the time. I think we can determine that this claim, if true, would effectively require orthodox Christianity to rethink its position on a number of crucial theological points.

Now, I claim that this conclusion (Radiometric dating that produces dates older than 6,000 years is correct most of the time) relies on the assumption that “The laws of physics did not radically change at the time that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.” How can we determine whether this statement really is an assumption that the argument relies on? That’s right—the negation test.

So, let’s try negating the assumption to see what happens. The negated form is “The laws of physics radically changed at the time that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.” Will this statement, if true, disprove the conclusion? I think it will. Therefore, we have conclusively determined that the statement is an assumption on which radiometric dating is based.

Therefore, it is not possible to use radiometric dating to disprove orthodox Christianity without begging the question
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No, what I said was that science typically looks at something and figures, “Since the half-life of C14 is x, and since we see y daughter product, we can calculate that the radioactive decay of this object has been ongoing for 20,000 years.” Yet surely you can see that this calculation flies in the face of the basic assumption of orthodox Christianity, which postulates that some 5,000-6,000 years ago, Adam ate the forbidden fruit, changing the laws of physics from a previous (unknown) form into the current (known) form.

Accordingly, this argument, evidence, data, or whatever you’d like to call it, does not falsify orthodox Christianity because it commits the logical fallacy of begging the question. Orthodox Christianity is not a subject for scientific inquiry as its primary claims cannot be evaluated empirically.

It doesn't. Very simplistically, it uses scientific method to determine the what may be the answer to a question.

That is not 'begging the question'. Science is limited to that which it can measure and test. That is inherently true, not 'begging the question. Deciding that this necessarily means there is more out there we CAN'T test scientifically, and then going further by stating anything of it's nature...well...that is the very definition of 'begging the question'.
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Occam’s Razor, you said? After William of Ockham (Occam in Latin) who famously said, “For nothing ought to be posited without a reason given, unless it is self-evident (literally, known through itself) or known by experience or proved by the authority of Sacred Scripture.” Interesting. How's that working for you?

No, that’s not the Creationist’s argument. Try again.

William Ockham's religious beliefs are pretty irrelevant, we're talking about the heuristic processes at play here. At this point you are just like a cat batting at anything that moves.

The creationists don't have an argument because to do that you have to have evidence that supports your conclusions. No one has to debunk creationism because it lacks the evidence to prove itself. Evolution (Darwin theory) is still a theory, and there are problems with it but we have the science to determine for example that a certain percentage of genetic material found in a cat or dog is the same as ours. That gives a hard support to the concept of evolution, and that's something that doesn't even exist for creationism. That fact that a certain percentage of genetic material exists in two apparently unrelated species means that "God creating all of the animals at once" type notions are debunked. Once that premise is debunked it calls everything else into question in that regard.

While you post a lot about logic, you seem to use very little of it. As far as its aims being evaluated empirically, that is complete crap -- only in the age of reason has that even changed. They were so obviously wrong about everything that they just quit trying to protest anything, but we're supposed to just trust them on stuff we can't evaluate. This is another logic failure. The only reason these arguments exist for them IS that they are ghost. No one can provide data from the birth of the universe to the degree that answers any of the questions, but don't worry we'll get there. Then they will have nothing...
 
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dust1n

Zindīq
With these principles in mind, let us turn to the post you have made. Your post contains no conclusion—so we’ll have to infer the intent of the author. In this case, I will assume that the author’s conclusion is: Radiometric dating that produces dates older than 6,000 years is correct most of the time. I think we can determine that this claim, if true, would effectively require orthodox Christianity to rethink its position on a number of crucial theological points.

Now, I claim that this conclusion (Radiometric dating that produces dates older than 6,000 years is correct most of the time) relies on the assumption that “The laws of physics did not radically change at the time that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.” How can we determine whether this statement really is an assumption that the argument relies on? That’s right—the negation test.

So, let’s try negating the assumption to see what happens. The negated form is “The laws of physics radically changed at the time that Adam ate the forbidden fruit.” Will this statement, if true, disprove the conclusion? I think it will. Therefore, we have conclusively determined that the statement is an assumption on which radiometric dating is based.

Lol, your complaint is that it is unsafe to assume that the laws of physics radically changed at the time that Adam ate the forbidden in fruit... at that level of skepticism, it would be virtually unsafe to make any assumption necessary to perform basic calculations, or even posit the belief in Adam. There is never not a point in time where it is safe to assume that at any point in time the laws of physics radically change for some unknown reason, and that we simply lack any empirical evidence to the contrary.

Any formulation of logic you use is going to use assumptions. For someone who apparently holds their use of logic in such high regard, you seem to be ignoring the fact that assumptions are pretty much the basic foundation of any logical argument...

"A premise or premiss[a] is a statement that what an argument claims will induce or justify a conclusion.[3] In other words: a premise is an assumption that something is true. In logic, an argument requires a set of (at least) two declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises or premisses along with another declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. This structure of two premises and one conclusion forms the basic argumentative structure."
So congrats...

In order to use radiometric dating, one needs to use the assumption that the laws of physics and everything observable by humans is indeed real, a not a fluke that changes whenever it is convenient for ones own beliefs.

Unfortunately, you haven't realized the consequences of pointing this out... it invalidates that entirety of logic because all logic premises are assumed to be true, and all logic is built upon agreeable premises. You can make any logical argument you want, and I'd have to recognize any legitimate argument as valid, if it is in fact valid, but I could claim that simply none of them are sound in any condition, because they all rely solely on some assumption at some point. For example, the assumption that there is even an Adam that actually exists in the first place to have been created at the time when the laws of physics mysteriously disappeared into a convenient void where no human can access.

Therefore, it is not possible to use radiometric dating to disprove orthodox Christianity without begging the question

And really, this should say, "Therefore, it is not possible to use radiometric dating to disprove orthodox Christianity, without assuming that the laws of physics didn't change at the exact moment it needed to in order to make orthodox Christianity correct and can't be confirmed by any observations of the natural world."
 
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Zosimus

Active Member
It doesn't. Very simplistically, it uses scientific method to determine the what may be the answer to a question.

That is not 'begging the question'. Science is limited to that which it can measure and test. That is inherently true, not 'begging the question. Deciding that this necessarily means there is more out there we CAN'T test scientifically, and then going further by stating anything of it's nature...well...that is the very definition of 'begging the question'.
No, the “very definition of begging the question” is “Any form of argument where the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises.”

I think you need to rethink your argument. You may think that repeating “I know you are, but what am I?” every time someone criticizes your argument is a convincing response. I’m sorry to have to inform you that it isn’t.
 

Zosimus

Active Member
William Ockham's religious beliefs are pretty irrelevant, we're talking about the heuristic processes at play here. At this point you are just like a cat batting at anything that moves.

The creationists don't have an argument because to do that you have to have evidence that supports your conclusions. No one has to debunk creationism because it lacks the evidence to prove itself. Evolution (Darwin theory) is still a theory, and there are problems with it but we have the science to determine for example that a certain percentage of genetic material found in a cat or dog is the same as ours. That gives a hard support to the concept of evolution, and that's something that doesn't even exist for creationism. That fact that a certain percentage of genetic material exists in two apparently unrelated species means that "God creating all of the animals at once" type notions are debunked. Once that premise is debunked it calls everything else into question in that regard.

While you post a lot about logic, you seem to use very little of it. As far as its aims being evaluated empirically, that is complete crap -- only in the age of reason has that even changed. They were so obviously wrong about everything that they just quit trying to protest anything, but we're supposed to just trust them on stuff we can't evaluate. This is another logic failure. The only reason these arguments exist for them IS that they are ghost. No one can provide data from the birth of the universe to the degree that answers any of the questions, but don't worry we'll get there. Then they will have nothing...
If you knew anything about anything, you would realize that your argument is full of holes.

First of all, no evidence is required to advance a theory. Were it so, no one would have been able to postulate the existence of a Higgs boson back in the 1960s because there was no evidence of that particle.

Second, the nonsense that you spew about Darwinism is laughable. You said, “…we have the science to determine for example that a certain percentage of genetic material found in a cat or dog is the same as ours…,” a finding that you think gives “a hard support” to the concept of evolution. Brushing aside the obvious that Darwinism and evolution are two different concepts, let’s evaluate the “hard support” you think you have. You theorize that cats, dogs, and humans share a common ancestor. If that is so, you would expect to find some overlap in the DNA. You have found some overlap in the DNA, so you think that you have “a hard support” for the theory. In reality, you have merely committed a logical fallacy. By way of illustration, I compare your theory to that of the NSA Buddhists. They reason thus: If chanting works, then my life will get better. My life got better (I got a job; I get along better with my mother, wife, husband, boss, whatever; and I am healthier) so chanting has “hard support.” Everybody say nam-myoho-renge-kyo! Well, sorry to break it to you, but neither your hard support nor that of NSA Buddhists is worth a crap.

Finally, your last paragraph is completely incoherent. You said, “The only reason these arguments exist for them IS that they are ghost.” What in the world does that mean? Who exactly is “they”? The arguments? The arguments are ghost? How can an argument be ghost?
 

Zosimus

Active Member
Lol, your complaint is that it is unsafe to assume that the laws of physics radically changed at the time that Adam ate the forbidden in fruit... at that level of skepticism, it would be virtually unsafe to make any assumption necessary to perform basic calculations, or even posit the belief in Adam. There is never not a point in time where it is safe to assume that at any point in time the laws of physics radically change for some unknown reason, and that we simply lack any empirical evidence to the contrary.

Any formulation of logic you use is going to use assumptions. For someone who apparently holds their use of logic in such high regard, you seem to be ignoring the fact that assumptions are pretty much the basic foundation of any logical argument...

"A premise or premiss[a] is a statement that what an argument claims will induce or justify a conclusion.[3] In other words: a premise is an assumption that something is true. In logic, an argument requires a set of (at least) two declarative sentences (or "propositions") known as the premises or premisses along with another declarative sentence (or "proposition") known as the conclusion. This structure of two premises and one conclusion forms the basic argumentative structure."
So congrats...

In order to use radiometric dating, one needs to use the assumption that the laws of physics and everything observable by humans is indeed real, a not a fluke that changes whenever it is convenient for ones own beliefs.

Unfortunately, you haven't realized the consequences of pointing this out... it invalidates that entirety of logic because all logic premises are assumed to be true, and all logic is built upon agreeable premises. You can make any logical argument you want, and I'd have to recognize any legitimate argument as valid, if it is in fact valid, but I could claim that simply none of them are sound in any condition, because they all rely solely on some assumption at some point. For example, the assumption that there is even an Adam that actually exists in the first place to have been created at the time when the laws of physics mysteriously disappeared into a convenient void where no human can access.



And really, this should say, "Therefore, it is not possible to use radiometric dating to disprove orthodox Christianity, without assuming that the laws of physics didn't change at the exact moment it needed to in order to make orthodox Christianity correct and can't be confirmed by any observations of the natural world."
First of all, bro, appeals to Wikipedia are inappropriate. Especially when the Wikipedia entry admits that it’s a stub and that it is desperately in need of someone to fix it. All of the sources for the information are basically dictionaries. You cannot come up with something better than that? Truly pathetic.

Second, your claim that changing laws of physics invalidate all of logic is absurd. Logic has nothing to do with physics.

Finally, you seem to be putting words in my mouth. I have never claimed that the laws of physics weren’t real. The problem is that you think you know what the laws of physics are because you’ve observed some things, but how do you really know what the laws of physics are? In 200 years, everything that you think is true about physics will be considered laughably obsolete. You know this, but you want to run around pretending that the latest scientific fad should enjoy some holy place of worship. Well, I’m not interested in drinking the Kool-aid. Go peddle your cult to someone else.
 
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