Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[savagewind]

I'm sorry, and mean no disrespect, but that makes absolutely no sense to me.

It is because wisdom builds upon wisdom. You have not accepted the prerequisite for it, I am assuming. I do not know what it is, so I can't help you.

He who will endured to the end receives a good name. Correct? If nobody endures to the end, God's name will be mud. I hope this helps.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Jesus was God's chosen name for his Son while living on Earth.
Daniel did Not use the name Jesus - Daniel 12:1 - as the great prince standing up at the future time - Daniel 12:2,13

 

[savagewind]

Jesus was God's chosen name for his Son while living on Earth.

That is just plain not true and you know it! He was HEBREW.

 

[Oeste]

You are welcome to translate "apostasy" any way you like, but in the bible it means only one thing. If you want to make it mean something else...knock your self out...

apostate (n.)

mid-14c., "one who forsakes his religion or faith," from Old French apostate (Modern French apostat) and directly from Late Latin apostata, from Greek apostasia "defection, desertion, rebellion," from apostenai "to defect," literally "to stand off," fromapo- "away from" (see apo-) + stenai "to stand."

I gave you a definition Deeje, it’s you who are trying to give us a translation. I think I’m on pretty solid ground here.

BTW, since you say the bible states otherwise, can you provide us with the Greek or Hebrew word you’re translating into English as “apostate” so readers can actually see whether they agree?

This has nothing to do with the holy spirit.....

If you want to talk about the importance of the meaning of the word "apostasy"...go and start your own thread....OK?

I would never have brought up if you hadn’t first broached the subject at post #657. In fact, apostates and apostasy were the furthest things from my mind.

Also, I’m confused as to why you say this has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit when this Watchtower.org article tells us otherwise:

Source

So first you told us that the Watchtower isn’t a prophet when it says it is, and now you claim apostasy has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit when the Watchtower says it does.

Obviously, this continues to raise some concerns and alarm bells, however unwarranted, regarding your claim to be a Jehovah Witness.

BTW, I’ve been told by other Witnesses that apostates are people who have come to know the truth but then deviate, or turn aside from the light provided by God’s "Spirit directed" organization. Do you agree, or would you still insist this is "off topic" because apostasy "...has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit"?

 

[Deeje]

Deeje,

You may say good people died and bad people were still alive. I think in reality, there are a lot of bad people dies because they are wicked; they died in their wickedness.

Please remember that I was only a teenager when these questions were plaguing me...I have grown up somewhat since then. I understand so much more now after 40 years of study.

Ps 145:20
20 The Lord keeps all who love Him,
But all the wicked He will destroy. NASU

Do you always have such a superficial view of scripture Yoshua? Who are "the wicked" in this scripture?
You do understand that the Psalms are prophetic in many instances and God's destruction of the wicked is the ultimate aim of his original purpose...the very reason for him sending his son as Messiah and bringing humankind back into a peaceful relationship with him....undoing all the damage that Adam's sin brought upon us.

Prov 10:27
27 The fear of the Lord prolongs life,
But the years of the wicked will be shortened. NASU

Same here...in keeping with God's original purpose to "save" the righteous and to "destroy" the wicked, those who are "God-fearing" will live their lives in a way that prolongs it. God's laws to Israel had many health benefits that the nations outside did not enjoy.
e.g today it means not smoking or taking illicit drugs...not drinking to excess, not taking unnecessary risks that put life in jeopardy. Following God's guidelines really does prolong life. The wicked don't follow God's ways at all. Their lives are often shortened by murder and an ungodly lifestyle.

Man may think that when God brings his good people to his side God is unfair. God always has a purpose when there are bad things that happened to good people. Man's thinking is not the same thinking with God. When someone dies or undergo trials, we interpreted it as bad. I believe that spiritual/heavenly and physical are not the same.

This is reason why in 1 Cor. stated this:
2 Cor 4:18
18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. NIV

I again see little comprehension of the big picture in your responses Yoshua. There is a good reason why we have a concept of trials being "bad"....that concept was given to us illegally by our father Adam. Bad is always bad because it was something that God initially withheld from his human children because he knew it would cause them distress if they experienced it.
The above scripture tells us how we cope with evil despite having no 'program' to deal with it. We exercise faith in God's promise of a new world where "righteousness is to dwell" (2 Peter 3:13)

Is this the same answers that JWs told you?

That is such a superficial explanation, it would never have satisfied my curiosity. I wanted to dig deeply into God's word but no one else had the right shovel. When I was handed the right one, gem after gem was uncovered until I felt like the richest person on earth!

Christendom's explanations don't even scratch the surface.

Jesus called His God, Father. Why looking for God's name if God knows who are His children and not His children?

Take a good look at the Hebrew scriptures in the ASV and you will get some idea of how important God's name was to his pre-Christian servants.
In the book of Psalms alone, God's name is used 780 times.729 times in Jeremiah...so they had no problem with God's name.
Jesus prayed that God's name would be "hallowed" or sanctified. Is it today? Even though scholars prefer Yahweh...they still don't say it. How do you sanctify God's name if you never use it?

There is no sanction from God to remove his name from his own book. Men took it upon themselves to do that with the result that the ambiguous terms "God" and "Lord" came to be given Jesus in the wrong way. Christendom does not teach the true meaning of these titles.

Why take so much about God's name when God sent His Son Jesus Christ, above all names? Truly Jesus always pointed it to God, and never Himself because He is God sent, and that is a very logical thing to think about. By the way, I have no problem if I called Him "Jehovah." If there is a KJV that you think that is nearest in translation, then go for it.

I mentioned the KJV because it was the Bible I studied with JW's when I first met them. I did not trust their Bible so I insisted on using my own. They asked me to compare the scriptures in both translations and I came to see which one was true and correct. I don't use the KJV anymore. The NIV is just as bad when it comes to bias in translation.

The relationship is with Jesus Christ, He is the Saviour that God sent. In my ministry, I saw the importance of the name "Jesus" because through His name, every knee shall bow, and even the demons trembled. I saw those things.

Acts 2:21
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. KJV

Acts 4:12
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. KJV

You fail to see that Jesus is a servant of his God (Acts 4:30)....Jehovah is the servant of no one.
It is God who sent his servant to give his life for obedient mankind. God did not send himself.

In Acts 2:2, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton is written in the original text...so "the Lord" here is Jehovah, not Jesus.

And Acts 4:12 highlights the fact that Jesus is the savior...sent by the "only true God" to save mankind. (John 17:3)

There is no way that you can push your doctrine on me.....I grew up with that nonsense....I threw it away.

 

[savagewind]

I understand so much more now after 40 years of study.

From years of inculcation. The reason this is true is the FACT that you may think only governing body thoughts about God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit and God's will be done. Correct? Is that correct?

The wicked don't follow God's ways at all.

What does "at all" mean? That makes no sense at all. For one thing, Jehovah's Witnesses do not follow God's way ALL THE TIME. And for another thing, nobody is wicked all the time or good all the time. What are you trying to say? Is it God's way to take care of one's family and pets? Do the "wicked" do that? Never??????????????????

Their lives are often shortened by murder and an ungodly lifestyle.

Their lives? I person can be murdered only once.
There was a story in a publication of JWS about a JW woman who was pregnant and selling a car. She was split open for the child. I am almost certain this was published by Watchtower. I am sorry I can't find the article.
There is more.
http://www.inquisitr.com/2991701/pa...-killed-second-wife-first-wife-still-missing/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ory-home-grandmother-grim-murder-suicide.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...people-mission-God-cleanse-world-sinners.html
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/fre...hovahs-witness-who-refused-blood-transfusion/

 

[savagewind]

Some people @Deeje might think that checking facts and memorizing is "study", but there is more to it than that. Also, a fact is only a fact if it is true.
Jehovah's Witnesses lean on the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses for their "facts".

Do you fancy yourself a teacher of God's Word to people needing saving? Who are the "wicked" and what does the wicked don't follow God's way at all mean? Is this something the governing body teach, or are you making that up?

Deeje going to someone's door and if the person opening the door could read your mind he will know that he never follows the way of God. Is this possible?

Maybe you should either explain what you mean or please retract that.

Do you mean a person can follow the ways of God only by holding hands with the governing body? How did people follow God before the Watchtower?

Actually, a person is wicked who does not know God (according to JW belief) and he never does the will of God. Then, HOW does he ever accept JW baptism? How does he accept that he should not forsake JW meetings? How does he ever accept a study inculcation session? How does he ever accept a Watchtower or the many thousands of other publications of JWs?

*Edit* @Deeje How does anyone who is not a JW donate money to the society if the "wicked do not do God's will at all"? If someone outside the JW organ. DOES donate money, is it wicked money? The society has implied that Jehovah provides funds to run the organization. According to Deeje (because the wicked do nothing of God's will, but they donate money - I did) they are mixing Jehovah's money with wicked money. Is this a bad association? Why or why not?

 

[savagewind]

Maybe the governing body should let it be known at what point a person is no longer wicked because I am sure that point should be hurried to. Don't you think?

 

[savagewind]

If the wicked don't follow God's way at all and everyone righteous will eventually side with the faithful and discreet slave then that is predestination because all JWs will have been righteous before they knew it, as you say, only righteous people will accept God and wicked people can't.
You are teaching predestination. But, you also say that predestination is not true. That is lying.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

You fail to see that Jesus is a servant of his God (Acts 4:30)....Jehovah is the servant of no one.
It is God who sent his servant to give his life for obedient mankind. God did not send himself.

In Acts 2:2, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton is written in the original text...so "the Lord" here is Jehovah, not Jesus.

What you fail to see is, Joel is prophesying about the end times and about Jesus,

Joel 2:30-32 (ESV Strong's) 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 (ESV Strong's) 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Acts 2:2, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton is written in the original text...so "the Lord" here is Jehovah, not Jesus.

It's no biggie, but it is actually Peter quoting Joel, not Paul.

And Acts 4:12 highlights the fact that Jesus is the savior...sent by the "only true God" to save mankind. (John 17:3)

Acts 4:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

So Act 4:12 doesn't "Really" mean that there is no other name but "Jesus" by which we must be saved? It just "highlights" the fact that He is the savior? And the main point of that verse is that "He was sent by the only true God"?

In Acts 2:2, Paul is quoting Joel 2:32 where the tetragrammaton is written in the original text...so "the Lord" here is Jehovah, not Jesus.

Romans 10:13 (ESV Strong's) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

If placing Jehovah in Romans 10:13 is correct, and it doesn't mean calling on the name of Jesus, why would Paul say,

1 Corinthians 1:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: (?)

Shouldn't he have said, "Jehovah" instead of Jesus?

 

[Deeje]

What you fail to see is, Joel is prophesying about the end times and about Jesus,

Joel 2:30-32 (ESV Strong's) 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood

Lets just explore these verses....
Joel ch 2 begins with this...
"Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand" (ASV)
So whose day is Joel speaking about?

Joel 2:30-32 in the ASV says....
"And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of Jehovah cometh. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call."

So, when Jehovah's name is restored to the text, are we in any doubt whose "day" this is?

Is it a day in which the Lord Jesus is fully involved? Well, since he is the appointed judge and leader of the executional forces on that day, of course he is.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9: (ASV)
"...it is a righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you, 7 and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire, 8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus: 9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might"

When you blur the lines between Father and son by using the ambiguous title "Lord" (and the devil has done just that so successfully) you end up worshipping the wrong "Lord", breaking the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
By obscuring the personal name of the "only true God", (John 17:3) Christendom has turned "the great day of Jehovah" into someone else's day. (John 20:17) It is Jehovah's sovereignty that is vindicated on that day. Jesus never had sovereignty, but upheld his Creator's superior position as his own God and Father. (John 20:17)

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 (ESV Strong's) 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Cor 1:4-9:
"I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge— 6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you— 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord."

Who was Paul thanking? Who was his God?

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (ESV)

Paul was identifying plainly whom his "one God" was....."the Father"....not his "Lord Jesus Christ".

It's no biggie, but it is actually Peter quoting Joel, not Paul.

No it isn't a biggie....I'm sorry I got my apostles mixed up...and it was Acts 2:21 where Peter was quoting Joel 2:32....but he is still telling us to "call on the name of Jehovah".

Acts 4:12 (ESV Strong's) 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

That is correct....Jehovah did not "give" us the name of any other man on earth who qualified to be our savior....just Jesus Christ.

So Act 4:12 doesn't "Really" mean that there is no other name but "Jesus" by which we must be saved? It just "highlights" the fact that He is the savior? And the main point of that verse is that "He was sent by the only true God"?

It means what it says in the context of what the rest of the scriptures teach....Jesus is not Almighty God....he is a creation of Almighty God as he himself says. (Revelation 3:14)

Did anyone else die for us? Is there any other servant "sent" by God to save us? (John 17:3)

Can God be a servant of his equal self? (Acts 4:30)

Phillipians 2:9-11
"Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (ESV)

You can plainly see that the role of the son is subservient to the role of the Father. God exalted his son so that humans would rightly serve the Father through him. Every tongue was to confess Jesus Christ as Lord (not God) "to the glory of God the Father".

Romans 10:13 (ESV Strong's) 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

If placing Jehovah in Romans 10:13 is correct, and it doesn't mean calling on the name of Jesus, why would Paul say,

1 Corinthians 1:2 (ESV Strong's) 2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours: (?)

Shouldn't he have said, "Jehovah" instead of Jesus?

No. For all the reasons given above.

Lets read Romans 10:11-15 for context.....
"For the scripture saith, [a]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [b]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!" (ASV)

Footnotes:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom+10:11-15&version=ASV#en-ASV-28185
[a] Romans 10:11 Isa. 28:16.

Isaiah 28:16:
"therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone of sure foundation: he that believeth shall not be in haste." (ASV)
Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32.

Joel 2:32:
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered".

Romans 10:11-13 is talking about Jehovah.

So Paul knew exactly whose name was to be called upon for salvation "through" Christ...NOT salvation from Christ. He was "sent"....so the one who sent him is the one whose name we need to call upon....Peter also identified his Lord, not as God Almighty, but he said....“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)

 

[Desert Snake]

No it isn't a biggie....I'm sorry I got my apostles mixed up...and it was Acts 2:21 where Peter was quoting Joel 2:32....but he is still telling us to "call on the name of Jehovah".

No. For all the reasons given above.

Lets read Romans 10:11-15 for context.....
"For the scripture saith, [a]Whosoever believeth on him shall not be put to shame. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: 13 for, [b]Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things!" (ASV)

Footnotes:
[a] Romans 10:11 Isa. 28:16.

Isaiah 28:16:
"therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone of sure foundation: he that believeth shall not be in haste." (ASV)
Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32.

Joel 2:32:
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered".

Romans 10:11-13 is talking about Jehovah.

So Paul knew exactly whose name was to be called upon for salvation "through" Christ...NOT salvation from Christ. He was "sent"....so the one who sent him is the one whose name we need to call upon....Peter also identified his Lord, not as God Almighty, but he said....“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:16)

Here we have
Romans 10:13
&
Joel 2:32
In Romans the word used is the one that refers to 'Jesus'. /According to the way the titles are used,,
Now,
in Joel the word used is Jehovah, as you reference/
Unless they contradict, the verse in Romans clearly here is indicating that Jesus is JHVH.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

No. For all the reasons given above.

Isaiah 28:16:
"therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone of sure foundation: he that believeth shall not be in haste." (ASV)
Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32.

Let's look at Isaiah 28:16,

Isaiah 28:16 (ASV) 16 therefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone of sure foundation: he that believeth shall not be in haste.

In that verse "Jehovah" says, "I LAY IN ZION" for a foundation stone". Here, Jehovah says He lays in Zion. It doesn't say, "I have laid in Zion one that will be a foundation stone", or, "I lay him in Zion", it says, "I lay in Zion "FOR" a foundation stone". That verse does not mention a "third" person who is laid in Zion.

And we do know that that verse is speaking of Jesus. So, Jesus is Jehovah!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

That is such a superficial explanation, it would never have satisfied my curiosity. I wanted to dig deeply into God's word but no one else had the right shovel. When I was handed the right one, gem after gem was uncovered until I felt like the richest person on earth!

Christendom's explanations don't even scratch the surface.

Just because it "felt good" and satisfied explanations you were looking for, doesn't mean it's the truth!

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ASV) For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.

 

[Deeje]

Just because it "felt good" and satisfied explanations you were looking for, doesn't mean it's the truth!

Nor does it mean that it isn't. What appears to be right to some is not right to others. The truth is a divider, as it was meant to be. In the first century, it divided those who saw Jesus for what he truly was, from those who swallowed the party line of the Pharisees. Their success in leading the majority of Jews away from their Messiah, was not Jesus' failure. Separation is what it's all about. The sheep are led one way...the goats are led another. Which is which?

Only God and his appointed judge knows. Whichever camp we find ourselves in on judgment day, is where we have placed ourselves by our own decisions. Why do you think that the "good news of the kingdom" had to be preach in all the earth for "a witness to all the nations" before "the end" came? (Matthew 24:14) This is the only "witness" that people will get, but it will be met with much the same response that Noah received in his day. Only members of his immediate family who helped hum to build the ark, survived. (Matthew 24:37-39) There was only one ark, and one family who lived to tell the story. Why did people ignore Noah's warning? They are ignoring the warning again, for all the same reasons.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (ASV) For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables.

Do your own words not also apply to yourself and to your own chosen church system?

At 2 Timothy 4:3-4, Paul was talking about an apostasy that was already making itself manifest even back in the first century. Paul also said....in Acts 20:25-30:
“And now look! I know that none of you among whom I preached the Kingdom will ever see my face again. 26 So I call you to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, 27 for I have not held back from telling you all the counsel of God. 28 Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son. 29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were not sown recently.

And in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, Paul also said:
"However, brothers, concerning the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction......
6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."

If that "lawlessness" was "already at work" when the apostles were alive (in the first century) and they were "acting as a restraint".....when the last apostle (John) died, that restraint was taken away....so, from the second century onward is when Christianity began to introduce the ideas on men. Traditions crept in and men took Christ's church in the direction that he and the apostles had foretold. The devil did exactly the same thing with Judaism. Why do you think it didn't happen? Christendom was born from that apostasy...nothing it teaches is from Christ.

Do you see Christendom obeying the teachings of Jesus?......loving their enemies...preaching about God's kingdom as mankind's only hope?....or is it the teachings of men who corrupted Christianity from those early days, being taught as Bible truth?

We are all free to make our own judgments on those things.....but blind Freddy can see that the "church" has lost its way, disunited, disobedient and fragmented to the point of ridiculous. You can remain part of that system, or you can obey God's command and "get out of" it. (Revelation 18:4-5) I chose to remove myself from that counterfeit system....and come on board an 'ark' that is stable and well stocked with spiritual food....I believe that will result in salvation for the "few" that Jesus spoke of. (Matthew 7:13-14)

You can make your own choices about those things. No one is standing over you with a big stick, making you believe or do, anything.

 

[Deeje]

Here we have
Romans 10:13
&
Joel 2:32
In Romans the word used is the one that refers to 'Jesus'. /According to the way the titles are used,,
Now,
in Joel the word used is Jehovah, as you reference/
Unless they contradict, the verse in Romans clearly here is indicating that Jesus is JHVH.

Sorry, but there is not one verse in the whole of scripture that gives Jesus the name that belongs exclusively to his God and Father.

In the Lord's Prayer Jesus said "hallowed by THY name"...not "hallowed be OUR name".

Almighty God has one name YHWH (Jehovah" Exodus 3:15 ASV)....Jesus has many names all of them given to him by his God...YHWH isn't one of them.

 

[Oeste]

The "weeds" of Jesus' parable were not sown recently.

Neither was the "wheat" of Jesus' parable sown in the 19th century.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

That's exactly what Rutherford did to the Bible Students!

 

[djhwoodwerks]

The sheep are led one way...the goats are led another. Which is which?

Only God and his appointed judge knows.

Are you admitting you don't know if you are in the truth or not, since only God and Jesus know?

Do your own words not also apply to yourself and to your own chosen church system?

They sure do apply to me also, but I don't belong to any church or organization that claims to be God (Guardians Of Doctrine) or "substitutes" for Christ, and that if I don't belong to the group they started, I have no hope of salvation.

Do you see Christendom obeying the teachings of Jesus?......loving their enemies...preaching about God's kingdom as mankind's only hope?

I see it this way, the 'slave' claims that the Covenant Jesus made with the Apostles was "only with them" the anointed, because He was speaking to them, so when Jesus was speaking to the Apostles about preaching the Gospel, it meant for just them to preach, because He was speaking to them.

Jesus has many names all of them given to him by his God...YHWH isn't one of them.

And every name for Jesus is recorded in the Bible, and not one of them was Michael!

 

[james2ko]

Almighty God has one name YHWH (Jehovah" Exodus 3:15 ASV)....Jesus has many names all of them given to him by his God...YHWH isn't one of them.

Since you ignored this part of my post some 28 pages ago, I figured this is a perfect time to resurrect it:

You said: "This [Psalms 110] is a prophecy about the Messiah and his rulership. There are not two Jehovah's at all."[emphasis mine]. I replied :

Yes it is a prophecy about the Messiah, but that does not negate the fact he was also referred to as Jehovah in Psalms 110:5. Evidence of Christ being referred to as Jehovah in Psalm 110:1,5 is in the Pe****ta of Matthew 22:43-45, which identifies David's Lord as Jehovah [Maryah], not once but twice!! source :

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool."

Psalms 110:5 [The or My is grammatically correct] Jehovah at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. (RV)

Mat 22:43 He said to them, "How then does David in the Spirit call Him 'LORD,' saying:
Mat 22:44 'THE LORD [Jehovah-Father] SAID TO MY LORD [Jehovah-Jesus], "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL" '?
Mat 22:45 If David then calls Him [Jesus] 'LORD, [Jehovah]' how is He his Son?" (NKJV)​

David is saying his Jehovah, who is sitting at the Father's (Jehovah) right hand in Psalms 110:1,5 is the one who will judge and strike the nations (vs 6). Christ tells us in Matthew, the Jehovah David was referring to as his Jehovah is none other than Himself!"