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Evidence for and against young earth creationism.

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
Okay. October 2nd at sundown, I begin to celebrate Rosh HaShanah. Humankind will be 5777 years old. 1656 years after Adam and Eve were created, the Flood happened. So 4121 years ago, the earth was destroyed by a Flood.

This is not an argument about creation versus evolution. This is an argument for and against a young earth. I opened up my mind a little and researched evidence of civilizations older than 4121 years, and even older than 5777 years.

I accept that a proper understanding of Genesis 1 doesn't preclude a lengthy period of time for creation. That the 6 days prior to Adam being created time didn't pass at the same rate it does now.

So what I'm saying is, produce for me evidence that can't be denied, that if there was a global flood, that it was significantly longer than 4121 years ago. Or produce for me evidence that can't be denied that civilizations existed prior to 5777 years ago.

Again, this is not an argument about evolution versus creation, but rather an argument about how old is human civilization.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
The Venus of Hohle Fels is the world’s oldest figurine to depict the human form. With the possible exception of the Zoomorphic Lion Man sculpture, it’s also the oldest undisputed figurative prehistoric art yet discovered (The Lion Man, however, depicts a non-human or half-human figure).

The 40,000-year-old statuette is about 6 centimeters (2.4 in) tall and carved from mammoth ivory. Like most Venus figurines, it depicts a voluptuous women with exaggerated, pronounced breasts and buttocks, and a massive, protruding vulva. Like many similar statuettes, this one had no head, but it has a carved ring above the left shoulder with worn surfaces that suggest it was worn as a necklace.

The number of figures found to date and the care our ancestors took in making them suggests that they were extremely important to early humans. Many researchers believe that they served as fertility totems, but the truth of their meaning is still largely unknown.

The Venus was excavated at the Hohle Fels caverns in the Swabian Jura region near the city of Ulm in southwest Germany, which was also the site of the world’s oldest musical instruments until new discoveries in 2012. The figure was found in six pieces about 3 meters (9 ft) under the cave floor amid animal debris, worked bone, and ivory and flint-knapping debris.

The Hohle Fels caverns contain plentiful evidence of prolonged prehistoric human occupation and has been the site of numerous finds, including the Lion Man figure. This sculpture was originally thought to be around 30,000–31,000 years old, but refined carbon-dating of bones found near the figure now put the Lion Man at 40,000 years. It’s also a noteworthy piece because the representation of an imaginary figure in art provides early evidence that humans had already developed complex pre-frontal cortexes.

0444.jpg



Until 2014 the oldest cave paintings known were 30,000–32,000-year-old paintings of Upper Paleolithic animals found in the Chauvet Cave in the valley of the Ardeche River in France. With little evidence to the contrary, it has been widely believed that an explosion of symbolic artistic thinking in early humans began in Europe around this time.

But a new discovery on the Indonesian island of Sulawesi, east of Borneo, challenges this notion. In September 2014, scientists confirmed that some of the cave paintings discovered there could be over 40,000 years old. They consist of stenciled handprints (similar to handprint paintings found elsewhere around the world), and paintings of local animals. One painting of a local animal called a babirusa has been definitively identified as at least 35,400 years old, making it officially the oldest known work of figurative art.

Art probably developed independently all over the world. There has been other evidence that Europe was not the sole place of origin. The presence of red ochre dye (commonly used in cave paintings) has been found in Israel dating to 100,000 years ago, and paint-making containers have been discovered in Africa that also go back as far as 100,000 years. This last example is also the world’s oldest known container, as we’ve previously discussed.

0638.jpg


The oldest masks ever found are a collection of 9,000-year-old stone masks from what is now Israel during the Neolithic era. They were collected from sites in the Judean Desert and the Judean hills and are currently on display in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem.

The masks themselves are stylized faces (at least some of them may have represented skulls), with holes along the edges that may have allowed for them to be worn. The holes may have alternatively been used to thread hair through them for a realistic effect, or cords to hang them from pillars or altars. Researchers are unsure whether they were worn or used ritualistically, but they note that the carved features seem to be designed with human comfort in mind. For example, the eyes are carved to afford a wide field of vision.

Older cave drawings depict people wearing masks. Archaeologists believe that many were made of biodegradable materials, so they are lost forever, making the few that we do find all the more valuable.

0843.jpg


In 2007, archaeologists studying mollusk shells gathered from the island of Java in Indonesia discovered one that appeared to have etchings on its surface. Others had characteristic holes near where the shells joined together, indicating that someone had used tools on them.

In 2014, a team of researchers confirmed that the shell was probably a tool of some sort. The etchings were the work of humans, probably Homo erectus, who had been thought only capable of using stone tools. Even more astonishing, the zigzag pattern of the etchings indicated the oldest known example of abstract representation in hominids to date.

The team, led by Josephine Joordens of Leiden University in the Netherlands, dated the shell to be about 500,000 years old. They established that the marks were carved and not accidental by using a microscope to demonstrate that they were made in a single session with sharp turning points at the corners—a sign of confident agency. They also determined that the holes carved in many of the shells were made with shark’s teeth, which were also found at the site. Because the etchings showed unmistakable signs of weathering, a hoax or recent marking of the shells by researchers was ruled out.

Still, it’s premature to call the evidence conclusive. It isn’t clear that Homo erectus had a prominent presence on the island. The carving may have been the later work of Homo sapiens. Until more examples can be found, no firm conclusion can be made, but even if it doesn’t turn out to be intentionally symbolic, it’s at the very least the oldest doodle ever found.


0939.jpg


The oldest tools ever found were discovered in Gona, Ethiopia and are 2.5–2.6 million years old. Not only does this make them the oldest tools, they are theoldest human artifacts in the world to date.

The tools are referred to as Oldowan, after the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzanio, and consist of pieces of sharp-edged rock pounded off of cores. They are used to chop and to scrape meat from animal bones.

About 2,600 of these tools have been uncovered from the excavation site, but no human remains have been uncovered, leaving the identity of the toolmakers debatable. What is known is that they predate the oldest known remains of genus Homo in the area. Similar tools have been found in other parts of Africa, with the oldest finds dated at about 2.3–2.4 million years ago.

1040.jpg



Source: http://listverse.com/2014/12/28/10-of-the-oldest-artifacts-in-the-world/
Lance LeClaire is a freelance artist and writer. He writes on science and skepticism, atheism, and religious history and issues, and unexplained mysteries and historical oddities, among other subjects. You can look him up on Facebook, keep an eye for his articles on Listverse, or follow his brand-new sometimes-serious, sometimes-satirical blog on atheism and secular issues at lleclaire.wordpress.com.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In Islam view ,there were creatures before the creation of Adam (pbuh) and Eve (pbuh),and may similaire to humans.
You know this kind of agrees with some New Age stuff I read. The human history is more complicated than our current science has evidence for. Interesting to me that Islam says this.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
My opinion is that if one is a young earth believer in these educated modern times, then that person is not really interested in looking at scientific data objectively anyway.
Okay, let me clarify. I should not have said, young earth. By the end of my introduction to this thread, I am interested in seeing scientific and historical evidence that human civilizations predate 5777 years ago. Sapiens has produced a lot of interesting stuff. Instead of mocking someone who sincerely wants to see the evidence, it seems that you can contribute by showing me the evidence. No offense.
 

Blastcat

Active Member
Okay. October 2nd at sundown, I begin to celebrate Rosh HaShanah. Humankind will be 5777 years old. 1656 years after Adam and Eve were created, the Flood happened. So 4121 years ago, the earth was destroyed by a Flood.

This is not an argument about creation versus evolution. This is an argument for and against a young earth. I opened up my mind a little and researched evidence of civilizations older than 4121 years, and even older than 5777 years.

I accept that a proper understanding of Genesis 1 doesn't preclude a lengthy period of time for creation. That the 6 days prior to Adam being created time didn't pass at the same rate it does now.

So what I'm saying is, produce for me evidence that can't be denied, that if there was a global flood, that it was significantly longer than 4121 years ago. Or produce for me evidence that can't be denied that civilizations existed prior to 5777 years ago.

Again, this is not an argument about evolution versus creation, but rather an argument about how old is human civilization.

Please explain what you mean by "evidence that can't be denied"

You can deny anything that you like to deny.
:)
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
Okay, let me clarify. I should not have said, young earth. By the end of my introduction to this thread, I am interested in seeing scientific and historical evidence that human civilizations predate 5777 years ago. Sapiens has produced a lot of interesting stuff. Instead of mocking someone who sincerely wants to see the evidence, it seems that you can contribute by showing me the evidence. No offense.
That has already been done. It is time to close the thread and move on.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
If Adam and Eve were created spontaneously, we would not have the level of genetic diversity within the human gene pool and it's sub-pools that we do. More than likely, the human race would die off after a few generations.
No, for there are such things as mutations and speciation. As I said, this isn't about evolution versus creation, this is about a young age for civilization.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay, let me clarify. I should not have said, young earth. By the end of my introduction to this thread, I am interested in seeing scientific and historical evidence that human civilizations predate 5777 years ago. Sapiens has produced a lot of interesting stuff. Instead of mocking someone who sincerely wants to see the evidence, it seems that you can contribute by showing me the evidence. No offense.
Sapiens has done it pretty well. I will just put some interesting recent excavation news. Here is one that shows that agriculture was being practiced in the Zagros mountains of Persia by 12500 years.

http://www.livescience.com/37963-agriculture-arose-eastern-fertile-crescent.html

The site contained mortars and grinding tools, stone figurines and other tools, suggesting a large social group lived there under fairly stable economic conditions. The team also found thousands of examples of wild barley, wild wheat, lentil and grass pea remains throughout the site, some of the earliest evidence of agriculture in the world.

Based on levels of radioactive isotopes, or atoms of the same elements with different molecular weights, the team estimated that the site was occupied almost continuously between 9,800 and 12,000 years ago.

During early periods, humans were simply gathering wild plants, but evidence for domestication of wild strains of grains such as wild barley and lentils gradually emerge in the middle layers of the tell. By the end of the period, people had begun cultivating truly domesticated crops such as emmer, an early form of wheat.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
You know this kind of agrees with some New Age stuff I read. The human history is more complicated than our current science has evidence for. Interesting to me that Islam says this.
There is verse in Quran mention that there were creatures before Adam(pbuh).
So Angels asked Allah why, He would creat "a creature" kill each other , the angels could NOT know the future.


And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
https://quran.com/2/30
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
So what I'm saying is, produce for me evidence that can't be denied, that if there was a global flood, that it was significantly longer than 4121 years ago. Or produce for me evidence that can't be denied that civilizations existed prior to 5777 years ago.
There seems to be a good post doing exactly what you asked for already for you to respond to but I think it should be pointed out that you’ve kind of got it the wrong way around. The scientific evidence of ancient civilisations isn’t used to make such a definitive statement, the closest being identifying whatever evidence is currently the oldest known example. There is also associated evidence of the precursors to “civilised” human beings and interrelated fauna and flora. All of this evidence strongly suggests a long unbroken continuity. If you’re stating a definitive date for the start (or restart post flood) of human civilisation so shouldn’t you be providing evidence to support that hypothesis? If the human race was wiped out baring a handful of individuals around 4000 years ago there should be clear evidence of both that destruction and the rapid expansion, growth and development to reach where we are today.
 

Brian Schuh

Well-Known Member
There seems to be a good post doing exactly what you asked for already for you to respond to but I think it should be pointed out that you’ve kind of got it the wrong way around. The scientific evidence of ancient civilisations isn’t used to make such a definitive statement, the closest being identifying whatever evidence is currently the oldest known example. There is also associated evidence of the precursors to “civilised” human beings and interrelated fauna and flora. All of this evidence strongly suggests a long unbroken continuity. If you’re stating a definitive date for the start (or restart post flood) of human civilisation so shouldn’t you be providing evidence to support that hypothesis? If the human race was wiped out baring a handful of individuals around 4000 years ago there should be clear evidence of both that destruction and the rapid expansion, growth and development to reach where we are today.
In a private conversation with Sapiens, I admitted that the actual hebrew text of the Torah, nowhere implies that the Flood was global. The word for "earth" in the Flood account simply means the land. In the way that an American would say our land, which would mean the United States, but not necessarily the whole earth. So this flood that allegedly occurred a little over 4000 years ago, probably covered much of the Middle East and possible some surrounding areas. But even taking the Hebrew text of the Torah literally, and seeing the Flood was regional and not global, I still doubt that it happened as late as a little over 4000 years ago. Is there any evidence of a great flood somewhere around the Mesopotamian Valley that could have flooded as far as the Indus Valley and as far as the Nile? Sapiens said that any valley around a water supply is bound to flood.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
So this flood that allegedly occurred a little over 4000 years ago, probably covered much of the Middle East and possible some surrounding areas. But even taking the Hebrew text of the Torah literally, and seeing the Flood was regional and not global, I still doubt that it happened as late as a little over 4000 years ago.
I’m not clear what you’re trying to say now. If the flood wasn’t global, the existence (and continuation) of other civilisations would be irrelevant either way and the timing of any flood event is only relevant if you’re asserting one happened at a particular time (as your OP seemed to imply).

Is there any evidence of a great flood somewhere around the Mesopotamian Valley that could have flooded as far as the Indus Valley and as far as the Nile? Sapiens said that any valley around a water supply is bound to flood.
He’s right - all rivers will flood and sometimes they will flood significantly. We still see that today. I don’t know the regional geography but I doubt the same water source could flood such an extensive area though I guess it’s possible for there to be flooding from multiple rivers/coasts at the same time if there was a period of especially wet weather.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened and acted as a trigger for “Great Flood” stories, building on the truth with dramatic exaggeration and various mystical elements. This seems to be the pattern for lots of old stories and myths. Flooding is one of those major life events that will inevitably be written about and I believe there are flood stories that are similar to the Biblical one but pre-date it (I’d have to look up to confirm). The idea of a single global or even regional flood event of that nature remains physically impossible via any known conventional means and I’m not aware of any physical evidence any such event took place at any time and I think the unbroken continuity of human civilisation if fairly well established with zero indication of the kind of massive break the Biblical story tells of (even reduced to a regional event).
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
In a private conversation with Sapiens, I admitted that the actual hebrew text of the Torah, nowhere implies that the Flood was global. The word for "earth" in the Flood account simply means the land. In the way that an American would say our land, which would mean the United States, but not necessarily the whole earth. So this flood that allegedly occurred a little over 4000 years ago, probably covered much of the Middle East and possible some surrounding areas. But even taking the Hebrew text of the Torah literally, and seeing the Flood was regional and not global, I still doubt that it happened as late as a little over 4000 years ago. Is there any evidence of a great flood somewhere around the Mesopotamian Valley that could have flooded as far as the Indus Valley and as far as the Nile? Sapiens said that any valley around a water supply is bound to flood.
There is no evidence for a flood such as you describe.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Okay. October 2nd at sundown, I begin to celebrate Rosh HaShanah. Humankind will be 5777 years old. 1656 years after Adam and Eve were created, the Flood happened. So 4121 years ago, the earth was destroyed by a Flood.

This is not an argument about creation versus evolution. This is an argument for and against a young earth. I opened up my mind a little and researched evidence of civilizations older than 4121 years, and even older than 5777 years.

I accept that a proper understanding of Genesis 1 doesn't preclude a lengthy period of time for creation. That the 6 days prior to Adam being created time didn't pass at the same rate it does now.

So what I'm saying is, produce for me evidence that can't be denied, that if there was a global flood, that it was significantly longer than 4121 years ago. Or produce for me evidence that can't be denied that civilizations existed prior to 5777 years ago.

Again, this is not an argument about evolution versus creation, but rather an argument about how old is human civilization.

Doesn't the 40,000 year mark some quote here as the oldest evidence , tie in with Biblical calculations for the age of humanity? I thought it was pretty close
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
In a private conversation with Sapiens, I admitted that the actual hebrew text of the Torah, nowhere implies that the Flood was global. The word for "earth" in the Flood account simply means the land. In the way that an American would say our land, which would mean the United States, but not necessarily the whole earth. So this flood that allegedly occurred a little over 4000 years ago, probably covered much of the Middle East and possible some surrounding areas. But even taking the Hebrew text of the Torah literally, and seeing the Flood was regional and not global, I still doubt that it happened as late as a little over 4000 years ago. Is there any evidence of a great flood somewhere around the Mesopotamian Valley that could have flooded as far as the Indus Valley and as far as the Nile? Sapiens said that any valley around a water supply is bound to flood.

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/...t-that-could-fill-our-oceans-three-times-over

consider also that the Bible references primarily 'springs from the deep' as the source of the flood, not rain
 
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