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Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Many of the prophecies are shaky. One of the most forced for me is Isaiah's. A child predicted to be a sign for King Ahaz becomes the Messiah? And born of a virgin? Not a Messianic prophecy to anyone but Christians. Several other forced prophecies have to make a person question and doubt the validity of the message being presented. Why? Because there's a lot of religions and they all claim divine origins. They all have heavenly beings and great prophets, and all tell a different story. So... are all the other prophets and founders of other religions liars, lunatics or who they said they are. Or, were only myth and legendary beings made up by men?

Despite that, Not only Isaiah, but also Hosea and Micah all prophesied during Ahaz' time, and idolatry is what marked Ahaz' reign.
Ahaz allowed non-biblical sacrificing to the extent of offering up his own sons - 2 Kings 16:3-4; 2 Chronicles 28:3-4.
Ahaz' rule was Not blessed but flooded with troubles.
Ahaz' heart should have been strengthened by Isaiah's message that God would Not allow Judah to be destroyed, and a man, Not of the Davidic line, be placed on the Davidic throne line. - Isaiah 7:2-12.
After only 16 years of misrule Ahaz died, and his body was Not placed in the royal burial places of the kings - 2 Kings 16:20; 2 Chronicles 28:27
Because of the old Hebrew prophecies, it was the first-century people - Luke 3:15 - who were in expectation about Messiah's arrival at that time.
Nothing, nor anyone, can stop the international spreading about Jesus being King of God's Kingdom for 1,000 years as foretold at Matthew 24:14
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

@NotOfTheWorld

Kindly clarify, do you believe Jesus was/is god or son of god in literal and physical terms? Please
Jesus can neither be a god nor a son of god in literal and physical terms. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was delivered from the Cross alive but in near-dead condition. He was kept secretly in a solitary tomb that belonged to one of his friends .Jesus died a natural death in India at the age of about 120 years.
Regards
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.
Overwhelming or underwhelming? Why do people doubt? Because who wants to follow strict religious laws if they aren't from a real God. God spoke then. God caused an earthquake and dead people got up and walked around. Jesus walked on water and rose from the dead. Yeah, that would be convincing if I saw it happen. But, when a religious person today tells me about hearing God's voice, that God or an angel or Mary appeared, why do I doubt them? Because a lot of people in a lot of religions see things and say things. They all can't be true. You know what would be a great proof, if all Christians believed the same thing. Not because some preacher told them, but because the one Holy Spirit taught them. Didn't Jesus say the Spirit would guide them into all truth? Where's that one truth? Christianity is all over the place with their beliefs.

And then, what about actually living like Jesus said? Turn the other cheek. Love your enemies. Give to those that ask. Go the extra mile. A proof would be His followers doing miracles like He did. Can you heal the sick? It's one of the gifts of the Spirit isn't it? Does God want His people to be healed? I'm sure He does. But why then is there so many sick and crippled children? Why are most of the "miracles" at healing services people that have a bad back or can't lift their arms over their heads anymore? Or, the guy that has a bad knee and all of a sudden he can dance and jump for joy? Give me a break, but it looks fake. Pray for the gift of healing and start fixing kids with cancer and other diseases. Yeah, you couch potato Christian. You can do. All you need is to really believe in the things you profess to believe in. You do that and I'll be astonished at the power of God.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Wasn't Einstein saying that one can not read the gospel accounts without feeling the actual presence and personality of Jesus that no myth person would have ?______ So, Einstein was Not saying ' believe ' just because someone else thinks you should believe.
I have three books on Einstein and religion, and I never saw any statement from him that even gets close to that. Einstein repeatedly said he believed in "Spinoza's God", and Spinoza is almost as far from basic Christianity as is atheism since he was a pantheist.

So, could you please find your source and link us here to it?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
Albert Einstein said, " I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene "( Jesus ).
When asked if he viewed Jesus as an historical person Einstein responded, " Unquestionably! No one can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word No myth is filled with such life. "
I feel that way when I read Robert Bakker's Raptor Red.

As gospel writer John wrote that No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12
Except he's either foolish or lying. Read the OT. Plenty of people have seen God. Even Jesus notes at one point during the Sermon on the Mount that anyone pure of heart can see God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Except he's either foolish or lying. Read the OT. Plenty of people have seen God. Even Jesus notes at one point during the Sermon on the Mount that anyone pure of heart can see God.

Yes, read the OT. Did you notice Exodus 33:20 ?

Where does it say 'anyone' pure of heart can see God - Matthew 5:8
Gospel writer John wrote at 1 John 3:1-3 about those who are termed as ' sons of God' ( Jesus' brothers of Matthew 25:40 )
Those ' sons of God ' - Romans 8:14; Romans 8:15-17- are Jesus' spiritual brothers who will be the saints or holy ones - Daniel 7:18
No man (physical body) can see God can live, but those resurrected ' brothers' of Jesus will have 'spirit bodies' in the heavens.
Those 'adopted sons' resurrected to heaven will be the pure-of-heart ones that can see God. - Revelation 2:10; Revelation 20:6
Whereas the majority of people will live here on earth in perfectly healthy physical bodies.
Before his downfall Adam talked with God, so righteous mankind will obtain that same original healthy human perfection as Adam originally had and talk with God, but there is No mention of Adam actually physically seeing his God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I have three books on Einstein and religion, and I never saw any statement from him that even gets close to that. Einstein repeatedly said he believed in "Spinoza's God", and Spinoza is almost as far from basic Christianity as is atheism since he was a pantheist.
So, could you please find your source and link us here to it?

Google Einstein's beliefs. I never said Einstein was Christian, but recognized Jesus as a no-myth life.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I have three books on Einstein and religion, and I never saw any statement from him that even gets close to that. Einstein repeatedly said he believed in "Spinoza's God", and Spinoza is almost as far from basic Christianity as is atheism since he was a pantheist.

So, could you please find your source and link us here to it?

I have not done the research to confirm, but this from www.einsteinandreligion.com -

The following comes from "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck,"The Saturday Evening Post, Oct. 26, 1929, p. 17. The questions are posed by Viereck; the reply to each is by Einstein. Since the interview was conducted in Berlin and both Viereck and Einstein had German as their mother tongue, the interview was likely conducted in German and then translated into English by Viereck.


Some portions of this interview might seem questionable, but this portion of the interview was explicitly confirmed by Einstein. When asked about a clipping from a magazine article (likely the Saturday Evening Post) reporting Einstein's comments on Christianity taken down by Viereck, Einstein carefully read the clipping and replied, "That is what I believe." See, Brian, Denis Einstein — A Life
ir
(John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New York, 1996) pp. 277 - 278.


"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"


"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."


"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?


"Emil Ludwig's Jesus," replied Einstein, "is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."

"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"


"Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus."


"Ludwig Lewisohn, in one of his recent books, claims that many of the sayings of Jesus paraphrase the sayings of other prophets."


"No man," Einstein replied, "can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he."
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Google Einstein's beliefs.
Why?
Why would anyone care about EInstein's beliefs about stuff he doesn't know any more about than I do?
I never said Einstein was Christian, but recognized Jesus as a no-myth life.
What is a "no-myth" life?
I'm sure Jesus' life was myth free. The stories told later, not so much.
Tom
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Why?
Why would anyone care about EInstein's beliefs about stuff he doesn't know any more about than I do?
What is a "no-myth" life?
I'm sure Jesus' life was myth free. The stories told later, not so much.
Tom

Einstein was considered a smart person. As an intelligent person he concluded that Jesus was an historical person.
What stories told later ? The 66 books of Bible canon were completed by the year 100 as being the Word of God - 2 Timothy 3:16-17
I believe the apostle John was the last one to write, Jesus' brothers James and Jude also wrote. They were Not strangers.
What they wrote has corresponding cross-reference verses or passages connected to the old Hebrew Scriptures.
In other words, what the Bible writers wrote are in harmony with each other.
Jesus' recorded words are often prefaced with the words, " it is written...." meaning already written down in the old Hebrew Scriptures.
So, Jesus based his beliefs by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
Jesus was never out to convert the world but to inform the world - Luke 4:43.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, Jesus based his beliefs by his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures as the basis for his teachings.
.
I do not think so. That is what the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses do.

John 5:19 John 6:38

Jesus spoke God's words. Are you teaching something different? 2 John 1:10
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

@NotOfTheWorld

Kindly clarify, do you believe Jesus was/is god or son of god in literal and physical terms? Please
Jesus can neither be a god nor a son of god in literal and physical terms. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he was delivered from the Cross alive but in near-dead condition.
Pilate believed that Jesus was an innocent person so he had arranged the crucifixion of Jesus in a way that he survives.

He was kept secretly in a solitary tomb that belonged to one of his friends .Jesus died a natural death in India at the age of about 120 years.
Regards
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
I have three books on Einstein and religion, and I never saw any statement from him that even gets close to that. Einstein repeatedly said he believed in "Spinoza's God", and Spinoza is almost as far from basic Christianity as is atheism since he was a pantheist.

So, could you please find your source and link us here to it?

Here is the link to the Saturday Evening Post article.

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/wp-content/uploads/satevepost/what_life_means_to_einstein.pdf
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I have not done the research to confirm, but this from www.einsteinandreligion.com -

The following comes from "What Life Means to Einstein: An Interview by George Sylvester Viereck,"The Saturday Evening Post, Oct. 26, 1929, p. 17. The questions are posed by Viereck; the reply to each is by Einstein. Since the interview was conducted in Berlin and both Viereck and Einstein had German as their mother tongue, the interview was likely conducted in German and then translated into English by Viereck.


Some portions of this interview might seem questionable, but this portion of the interview was explicitly confirmed by Einstein. When asked about a clipping from a magazine article (likely the Saturday Evening Post) reporting Einstein's comments on Christianity taken down by Viereck, Einstein carefully read the clipping and replied, "That is what I believe." See, Brian, Denis Einstein — A Life
ir
(John Wiley & Sons, Inc., New York, 1996) pp. 277 - 278.


"To what extent are you influenced by Christianity?"


"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."


"Have you read Emil Ludwig's book on Jesus?


"Emil Ludwig's Jesus," replied Einstein, "is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot."

"You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"


"Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus."


"Ludwig Lewisohn, in one of his recent books, claims that many of the sayings of Jesus paraphrase the sayings of other prophets."


"No man," Einstein replied, "can deny the fact that Jesus existed, nor that his sayings are beautiful. Even if some them have been said before, no one has expressed them so divinely as he."
Thanks for this as I was not at all familiar with that interview.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Google Einstein's beliefs. I never said Einstein was Christian, but recognized Jesus as a no-myth life.
Yes, I can see this, and let me just say that I was not saying nor implying that Einstein didn't believe Jesus existed, but I have to admit I am surprised with how strong a feeling he had about Jesus. In a sense I probably shouldn't be surprised as Einstein was a believer in non-violence as Jesus appears to have been as well.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What I find interesting about the article is the fact that it was written when he lived and not years or decades later whereas my sources were written. He was an amazing intellect, no doubt, but certainly not perfect both in his personal live nor with some of this theories, such as the Steady-State Theory, which the Big Bang Theory overturned, and his dissing of quantum mechanics ("God does not play at dice"), which we now know helps to explain the activity of sub-atomic particles.

Thanks again.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
What I find interesting about the article is the fact that it was written when he lived and not years or decades later whereas my sources were written. He was an amazing intellect, no doubt, but certainly not perfect both in his personal live nor with some of this theories, such as the Steady-State Theory, which the Big Bang Theory overturned, and his dissing of quantum mechanics ("God does not play at dice"), which we now know helps to explain the activity of sub-atomic particles.
Thanks again.

But, didn't Einstein quickly abandon the idea of the steady-state theory ?
To entertain an idea is one thing, but to abandon an idea is another.
If Einstein was alive today, then don't you think he would be formulating different thoughts using current knowledge.
Because of what I have read in Scripture - see Romans 6:7, I think Einstein will have a future resurrection and we can speak directly to him.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But, didn't Einstein quickly abandon the idea of the steady-state theory ?
To entertain an idea is one thing, but to abandon an idea is another.
If Einstein was alive today, then don't you think he would be formulating different thoughts using current knowledge.
Because of what I have read in Scripture - see Romans 6:7, I think Einstein will have a future resurrection and we can speak directly to him.
No, he never accepted the BB, but we need to remember that what was lacking up to his death was the evidence that later confirmed the BB. Up until then, it was only a hypothesis.

Yes, I do believe he undoubtedly would have changed some of his positions in light of new evidence.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.

#1: The Scripture

Now, this is an obvious one. Obviously the Scriptures. I know, it's not the best start, but it's laying down the foundations. Let's start with the prophecies.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . list goes on an on.
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

There, after e got all of those clobber passages out of the way, if you're still not convinced, let's just look for a moment at the similarities of the gospels proclaimed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I added in this bit because it's important to note that many people point out contradictions in the Bible. (Really, they aren't contradictions, but just aren't specific quoting, noted by the punctuation in early Scripture, but that's not important) The gospels are similar in a huge variety of ways, but just different enough to tell they had different witnesses.

#2 Who could He be?

So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

-A liar
-A delusional psychotic
-Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
-A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
-The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world

Well let's assess the first possibility, that he is a liar.

There's a simple answer to this one: he couldn't be a great teacher if he was liar. Yes, theoretically, he could just make up some phony bologna parables and life lessons and pretend to follow him, but there's key point that takes that out: all those around saw that He had committed no sin. That would mean he followed some moral philosophy, and it would make perfect sense if it would be what He preached.

So now that we saw that He wasn't a liar, let's go on to the next possibility- delusions.

A simple answer for this as well. In all of the times the disciples and citizens of each town saw him, there was no evidence to show that he suffered from any mental disorder. The only argument for this would be that, supposedly, the burning passion for God's house is only a symptom o his disorder. Except all that was described that in an act of burning desire to purify God's house, He trashed the area in righteous anger. He did not attack anyone, and if he did it was to get them out of the temple.

Now let's look at the third possibility-He never made claims of Messiah-ship.

To give a rebuttal to this point, we must give a quick look at Jesus dying at the cross. Just a quick fact: two atheist historians concluded that Jesus's dying on the cross is an actual certainty. Well, why did He die on the cross? Because of His claims of Messiah-ship.

Now, let's look at the fourth possibility- A spiritual soul, not understood fully.

This is a fair point. You cannot fully understand Jesus, His teachings, and His glory, and you can't really know what was going on in His head. You must rely on scripture alone, and deductive reasoning. As He was spiritual and faithful towards the Lord in heaven, showing capabilities of amazing things, if He was just a prophet or spiritual but not the Son of God, then He could not be a true prophet or spiritual being, because He would be a cold liar. God would have eventually told Him straight out that He wasn't the Christ and to stop acting like He was, and revealed to everyone that He wasn't.

That leaves only one possibility left: He is the chosen Messiah.

#3- The Tomb

Yes, it is obviously not the best piece of evidence, but it is noteworthy. The empty tomb of Christ in Israel has brought a lot of questions, and criticism. Let's look at this criticism individually.

-It is the wrong tomb.

Couldn't be. When Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, Jesus's clothes were laid on the ground.

-The Romans Took The Body

Why would they? If they took the body, they would help give faith in the one belief they wanted people not to believe in with a burning passion.

-The disciples took the body.

How could they? The Romans were guarding the tomb. No one could have gotten in, and no one could have gotten in.

-Jesus simply fainted, and woke up a while after.

It would hardly seem plausible for a man with nails dug into his arms and legs, beaten, whipped, and stabbed in the side to be able to get up, move a hundred-pound boulder, and walk miles upon miles away and not be caught or die from pain and exhaustion.

#4- Saul's Convictions

This is a simple one, but during the time Saul had not been converted, he had been killing Christians for their beliefs. During this time, he had seen Jesus with his own eyes, and believed, which sparked his repentance. This means Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. Not a legend.



I'm going to abruptly end this now. Ready for hate replies.

Please consider that to the average atheist, making a point by quoting the Bible, will sort the same effect as on the average a-MickeyMousist when quoting Walt Disney.

Ciao

- viole
 
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