Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

[ukok102nak]

quite fascinating
so nobody knows the truth behind your so called
a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.
oneself, in particular.
who overwhelmin
believed in its own belief and faith
such as this
:read:
The mystical side is that we are all One in Consciousness, or the Source, or again, god, which I don't care for, its been so abused that its lost any true meaning. So we as the mind body organism are just one creation of that which has arisen from the Source of Consciousness. All the religions have their story or myths of this very thing that happen since the so called big bang, they personalize the Source and call it God, those who have been here now and in the past who have Awakened to this truth have also been personalized as Saviors who are One with God, usually their father being God.

But the truth is that we are all One with the Source, most of us are still asleep and don't realize this, this inner feeling is what attack many to religions and deep understanding, its our inner Self the Consciousness that is being attracted back to its Self, just as the rivers are attracted back to the ocean, its Source.

Well that is what resonates with myself, I don't have a belief in that, just as I don't need a belief that the sun will rise each and every morning. I hope this clarifies what I am trying to share.

as they say
as it is written carefully check
every detail on it
and kindly correct us if we are wrong
:read:
A number of prehistoric structures have been proposed as having had the purpose of timekeeping (typically keeping track of the course of the solar year). This includes many megalithicstructures, and reconstructed arrangements going back far into the Neolithic period.

A mesolithic arrangement of twelve pits and an arc found inWarren Field, Aberdeenshire, Scotland, dated to roughly 10,000 years ago, has been described as a lunar calendar and dubbed the "world's oldest known calendar" in 2013
~;> MEANING TIME WONT WAIT
FOR ANYONE UNTO THE VERY LAST THING
THAT IS
WHICH EXIST WITHIN THIS REALM
AND
EVEN STARS (LITERALLY) MAY DIE
SO ITS BETTER
TO SAY SOMETHING THAT IS UNDENIABLE AND REASON IT ALL . . . WHY (its my will to better ask question first and not the question will ask me until the end)

meaning everyone has their own understanding from everything that are within the surrounding of its very existence
such as you
for you never intend to say a thing from what your reality is telling unto
the real thing that is deep inside you
as it is
whos the real you
from the past and until now
so as it is written carefully check
every detail on it
and kindly correct us if we are wrong
:read:
Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaks evil of his brother, and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law, and judges the law: but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who are you that judge another?

13 Go to now, all of you that say, To day or tomorrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas all of you know not what shall be on the next day. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appears for a little time, and then vanishes away.

so if one is denying its understanding
and the knowledge from what they
really believe in
with accordance unto their
good faith
then
its settled from the start unto the last part


:ty:



godbless unto all always

 

[ukok102nak]

:happy: atleast i could overwhelming
say and tell all this things from every details on what is actually really happened
for everything what i've heard and from what i've seen unto all the people whom i loved who also loved me and even unto those who not loving me but i accept and never them deny as long as they never deny themselves
before and after i say and i tell this
as it is written ... .

. ... and
i will say it again
that we will never deny every post here in religious forum and even unto the outside world (we used to determined this term as those who were not familiar unto what we really meant to say)
whether its against our belief and faith or
it gets along with everyone's opinion
but
if someone is ignoring one statement
then its freewill i must say


:ty:



godbless
unto all always

 

[LuisDantas]

As I have asked before why did the conspirators make Jerusalem go up in smoke? And knock down every stone.

You did not answer the question made, far as I can tell.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm going to stop replying, you can't really prove a religion that stems from the heart. God bless.

That sure wasn't your position at the start of this thread. From where I sit, it was only once your "proof" was shown to be lacking that you decided that you don't need proof.

 

[ukok102nak]

:happy: see as what weve heared
everyone has their proof
to say upon writtings
so that someone could provided a better understanding unto each other
and
from one another unto the next generation

hoping
that not even a single hair would lossen upon every persons head
that is
why we write unto every possible means
such as handwritten nor pointing our fingers unto every available keyboards
or recording them as possible as we could until today
for now with a helping hand of this modern technological advancement
we evolved through wisdom and with this knowledged shall increase

indeed it is
that is what wisdom and understanding united unto one
overwhelmin thoughts and ideas where knowledged is concerned
in every details that was
known as

Words can be violent too.

:ty:



godbless
unto all always

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What's the proof that Josephus was a historical person, and that he wrote truth and not fiction?

What is the proof that Josephus was Not an historical person ?

Besides Josephus, a number of early non-Christian sources name Jesus. ( Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger )

 

[URAVIP2ME]

While many historians accept the short references in Josephus to John the Baptist and Jesus the brother of James, I think there are reasons to doubt they were in the original works. I've also heard it argued that it is very likely that the passage about Jesus was inserted by a Christian copyist or commentator much later (as it is in a different style, and is inserted awkwardly in the narrative). Apparently, the earliest reference to the passage was by Eusebius, writing in the early 300s CE.
As it was, Josephus's Antiquities (where the longest passage appears) was published in 94 CE, or about 60 years after Jesus' reputed death, and he was trying to satisfy his Roman patron. What's more, if the passage was inserted by someone in the Church in the 200s or 300s, then it's clear that it is not a support of a historical Jesus at all.

Aren't the seven public figures that Luke names well known to historians including Pontius Pilate - Luke 3:1-2, so why wouldn't the Jewish high priest and historian Josephus (c.37-100) also be familiar ?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Aren't the seven public figures that Luke names well known to historians including Pontius Pilate - Luke 3:1-2, so why wouldn't the Jewish high priest and historian Josephus (c.37-100) also be familiar ?

using the names of known people validates otherwise uncorraborated texts? I don't think so.
In the mid-300 CE, when Christians were finally not only avoiding persecution and in fact becoming the official state religion, you would think that the church fathers would have wanted to get hold of all the officials records about the period of time that Jesus lived--census records, the records of Pilate and the other Roman governors, and so on, to find every nugget they could about Jesus...

And yet, at best there are only 2nd and 3rd-hand accounts, and nothing clearly taken from official records of the time. That, by itself, I think speaks volumes about the legitimacy of the records about Jesus.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

using the names of known people validates otherwise uncorraborated texts? I don't think so.
In the mid-300 CE, when Christians were finally not only avoiding persecution and in fact becoming the official state religion, you would think that the church fathers would have wanted to get hold of all the officials records about the period of time that Jesus lived--census records, the records of Pilate and the other Roman governors, and so on, to find every nugget they could about Jesus...
And yet, at best there are only 2nd and 3rd-hand accounts, and nothing clearly taken from official records of the time. That, by itself, I think speaks volumes about the legitimacy of the records about Jesus.

Albert Einstein said, " I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene "( Jesus ).
When asked if he viewed Jesus as an historical person Einstein responded, " Unquestionably! No one can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word No myth is filled with such life. "

 

[paarsurrey]

Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

@NotOfTheWorld

Kindly clarify, do you believe Jesus was/is god or son of god in literal and physical terms? Please

Regards

 

[columbus]

Albert Einstein said, " I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene "( Jesus ).
When asked if he viewed Jesus as an historical person Einstein responded, " Unquestionably! No one can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word No myth is filled with such life. "

You know what one of the biggest differences between nontheists and theists is?
We nontheists are less inclined to put our faith in humans.
I don't much care about Einstein's opinion on a subject outside his area of expertise. Advanced physics(by the standards of the day), sure. Religion, culinary treats, child rearing? Not at all, because I don't share the religious beliefs in prophets. And I am not inclined to "believe" in anything just because someone thinks I should.
Tom

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Albert Einstein said, " I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene "( Jesus ).
When asked if he viewed Jesus as an historical person Einstein responded, " Unquestionably! No one can read the gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word No myth is filled with such life. "

It's important to note that while Einstein believed Jesus was a historical character with teachings recorded in the gospel, he didn't believe Jesus was the son of God or preformed miracles. In fact he didn't believe in a personal God at all, but more of a pantheistic Spinozan God.

"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously"
"I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."

He also doubted part of the gospels came from Jesus own mouth. Including denying that Jesus said he was God.

"I seriously doubt that Jesus himself said that he was God, for he was too much a Jew to violate that great commandment: Hear O Israel, the Eternal is our God and He is one!' and not two or three."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

You know what one of the biggest differences between nontheists and theists is?
We nontheists are less inclined to put our faith in humans.
I don't much care about Einstein's opinion on a subject outside his area of expertise. Advanced physics(by the standards of the day), sure. Religion, culinary treats, child rearing? Not at all, because I don't share the religious beliefs in prophets. And I am not inclined to "believe" in anything just because someone thinks I should.
Tom

Wasn't Einstein saying that one can not read the gospel accounts without feeling the actual presence and personality of Jesus that no myth person would have ?______ So, Einstein was Not saying ' believe ' just because someone else thinks you should believe.

According to Scripture, Jesus recorded words were Not saying put faith in humans but in his God - John 4:23-24
Not just because one should believe just for the sake of believing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

It's important to note that while Einstein believed Jesus was a historical character with teachings recorded in the gospel, he didn't believe Jesus was the son of God or preformed miracles. In fact he didn't believe in a personal God at all, but more of a pantheistic Spinozan God.
He also doubted part of the gospels came from Jesus own mouth. Including denying that Jesus said he was God.

There is No Scripture where Jesus said he was God.
Jesus never said he was God.
As gospel writer John wrote that No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12
People saw Jesus. Saw Jesus and lived - Exodus 33:20

 

[buddhist]

What is the proof that Josephus was Not an historical person ?

Besides Josephus, a number of early non-Christian sources name Jesus. ( Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger )

I have no personal proof of the existence or non-existence of Jesus or Josephus or any of those other names. Remember, "evidence" is not proof.

 

[columbus]

Wasn't Einstein saying that one can not read the gospel accounts without feeling the actual presence and personality of Jesus that no myth person would have ?

Why would I care about Einstein's feelings? He is a physicist.
I get a very different feeling from the NT.

But unlike most Abrahamic religionists, I don't have your faith in humans. I have more faith in god than humans claiming to speak for god.
Tom

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There is No Scripture where Jesus said he was God.
Jesus never said he was God.
As gospel writer John wrote that No man has seen God at any time - John 1:18; John 6:46; 1 John 4:12
People saw Jesus. Saw Jesus and lived - Exodus 33:20

You'll have to take that up with the trinitarians. I just wanted to give a balanced perspective on Einstein's beliefs. Because he wasn't a Christian, practicing Jew or even a monotheist. So looking at his quotations should have that context.

 

[CG Didymus]

Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.

#1: The Scripture

Now, this is an obvious one. Obviously the Scriptures. I know, it's not the best start, but it's laying down the foundations. Let's start with the prophecies.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . list goes on an on.
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

There, after e got all of those clobber passages out of the way, if you're still not convinced, let's just look for a moment at the similarities of the gospels proclaimed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I added in this bit because it's important to note that many people point out contradictions in the Bible. (Really, they aren't contradictions, but just aren't specific quoting, noted by the punctuation in early Scripture, but that's not important) The gospels are similar in a huge variety of ways, but just different enough to tell they had different witnesses.

#2 Who could He be?

So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

-A liar
-A delusional psychotic
-Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
-A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
-The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world

Well let's assess the first possibility, that he is a liar.

There's a simple answer to this one: he couldn't be a great teacher if he was liar. Yes, theoretically, he could just make up some phony bologna parables and life lessons and pretend to follow him, but there's key point that takes that out: all those around saw that He had committed no sin. That would mean he followed some moral philosophy, and it would make perfect sense if it would be what He preached.

So now that we saw that He wasn't a liar, let's go on to the next possibility- delusions.

A simple answer for this as well. In all of the times the disciples and citizens of each town saw him, there was no evidence to show that he suffered from any mental disorder. The only argument for this would be that, supposedly, the burning passion for God's house is only a symptom o his disorder. Except all that was described that in an act of burning desire to purify God's house, He trashed the area in righteous anger. He did not attack anyone, and if he did it was to get them out of the temple.

Now let's look at the third possibility-He never made claims of Messiah-ship.

To give a rebuttal to this point, we must give a quick look at Jesus dying at the cross. Just a quick fact: two atheist historians concluded that Jesus's dying on the cross is an actual certainty. Well, why did He die on the cross? Because of His claims of Messiah-ship.

Now, let's look at the fourth possibility- A spiritual soul, not understood fully.

This is a fair point. You cannot fully understand Jesus, His teachings, and His glory, and you can't really know what was going on in His head. You must rely on scripture alone, and deductive reasoning. As He was spiritual and faithful towards the Lord in heaven, showing capabilities of amazing things, if He was just a prophet or spiritual but not the Son of God, then He could not be a true prophet or spiritual being, because He would be a cold liar. God would have eventually told Him straight out that He wasn't the Christ and to stop acting like He was, and revealed to everyone that He wasn't.

That leaves only one possibility left: He is the chosen Messiah.

#3- The Tomb

Yes, it is obviously not the best piece of evidence, but it is noteworthy. The empty tomb of Christ in Israel has brought a lot of questions, and criticism. Let's look at this criticism individually.

-It is the wrong tomb.

Couldn't be. When Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, Jesus's clothes were laid on the ground.

-The Romans Took The Body

Why would they? If they took the body, they would help give faith in the one belief they wanted people not to believe in with a burning passion.

-The disciples took the body.

How could they? The Romans were guarding the tomb. No one could have gotten in, and no one could have gotten in.

-Jesus simply fainted, and woke up a while after.

It would hardly seem plausible for a man with nails dug into his arms and legs, beaten, whipped, and stabbed in the side to be able to get up, move a hundred-pound boulder, and walk miles upon miles away and not be caught or die from pain and exhaustion.

#4- Saul's Convictions

This is a simple one, but during the time Saul had not been converted, he had been killing Christians for their beliefs. During this time, he had seen Jesus with his own eyes, and believed, which sparked his repentance. This means Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. Not a legend.



I'm going to abruptly end this now. Ready for hate replies.

Many of the prophecies are shaky. One of the most forced for me is Isaiah's. A child predicted to be a sign for King Ahaz becomes the Messiah? And born of a virgin? Not a Messianic prophecy to anyone but Christians. Several other forced prophecies have to make a person question and doubt the validity of the message being presented. Why? Because there's a lot of religions and they all claim divine origins. They all have heavenly beings and great prophets, and all tell a different story. So... are all the other prophets and founders of other religions liars, lunatics or who they said they are. Or, were only myth and legendary beings made up by men?

 

[CG Didymus]

I thought we were doing well and then you go and ruin it! This is Isaiah talking. Its his book of prophecies, remember!!


You see, this is weird, because Isaiah is clearly referring to Israel but MMLJ usually talk about Jesus. Not sure what happened there...


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


No, Isaiah is referring to Israel here.


The Messiah has nothing to do with the new covenant. That's just silly.


Its a nice thought, but the verse doesn't actually say that. It has G-d seeing that there is no one to pray for Israel, and so G-d does the saving without anyone praying for it. Isn't that a great kindness?


What a mess! This is Isaiah talking again. He's the one who's spreading these wonderful prophecies to a downtrodden people. Don't make stuff up! Read the words!!!


Well, its true that the Messiah will come on a specific date, as it would be impossible for someone to not do an act in a finite period of time. But that has nothing to do with Daniel


You silly guy, you. That's David's home town, not the Messiah's!! The Messiah is often called the "son of David", so he's also the son of the guy from Bethlehem. What a silly mistake.

Well, you're not wrong exactly, but I wonder if you really understood what Zecharia was saying.


This was a parable. I think you may have missed that.


You may want to go through that passage again. This passage is talking about false prophets trying to blend into society during a time that people will reject false prophets.


I think you didn't read the verse well. It says that G-d will send and angel (probably Elijah considering the last verse) to clear house. And then G-d will enter the House. Nothing there about a Messiah entering the Temple with authority.


Didn't really see anything important there.


As has been claimed about Muhammad and the Bab. Maybe they're all telling the truth?


Well, let's just be clear. The people who wrote the gospels wouldn't have really known about people's reactions since they're writing way after the fact.


Oh, he definitely claimed it.


That doesn't follow at all.

Just want to say, that I'm just trying to help people fix their faith.

Stop it. You're just be silly. If all you say is true, then Christians read whatever they wanted into Jewish Scripture to make him sound like the One, Only, True, Messiah and Savior for all of humankind... not to mention the second part of a triune Godhead... that I sure is clearly spelled out in your Scriptures. Just look closer, I'm sure it's in there somewhere. Besides, if what you say is true, it makes it sound like early Christians made it all up. Now that would just be silly. Actually Tumah, great posts. I was a naive believer back in the mid-70's... until I read the so called "OT" for myself. So many out of context quotes all over the NT.

At work there's a couple of young Christians. I've asked a few basic questions and found they are very naive like I was. They fall in love with Jesus... are taught all these "proof" verses and assume their teachers are telling the truth. Of course, they believe they have they eyes and ears to hear the real truth and the Holy Spirit to guide them. They accuse everyone else of being "blind", but who are the blind ones? Who are the misguided ones? Thousands of sects and denominations and non-denomination and whatever else they call themselves clearly shows, they don't even know. But, I'll tell you one thing...Boy, it felt good and believable to me for a couple of years. To bad I had to spoil it all by investigating further into what I was being taught. Take care Tumah, you're another one that I really appreciate.

 

[paarsurrey]

Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

@NotOfTheWorld

Kindly clarify, do you believe Jesus was/is god or son of god in literal and physical terms? Please
Jesus can neither be a god nor a son of god in literal and physical terms. Jesus did not die on the Cross, he died a natural death in India at the age of about 120 years.
Regards