Overwhelming Historical Proof: Why do you doubt Jesus?

[Animore]

But do you agree my option '-A great spiritual soul not always fully understood' merits addition to your list of possibilities? The not 'fully understood' can logically also include the writings compiled into the Bible.

It is a fair point, yes. I'll get back to you.

 

[McBell]

It seems you're blind. The scripture is my historical proof, but just for you, I'll add more. I'll get back to you.

Scripture is not "historical proof."

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

It is difficult to call any of the documents in the New Testament "historical," and to cite them as evidence of the historical existence of the individuals and events recounted is problematic at best. If one sets aside the New Testament (whichever version) and the histories of the Church, there is precious little evidence of any of the events described; that is, there is no external evidence of Jesus or his followers until the early 100s C.E. at best. It is believed that the Gospels were written between 40 and 100 years after Jesus' reputed life and death, but there is no indisputable physical evidence of their existence until much later than that. The other chapters of the NT are at best historical in the sense that they reflect the thoughts and experiences of Paul and others in the first decades after the purported death of Jesus.

 

[von bek]

And I understand that. Nevertheless, the prophecies are quite specific, especially the prophecy foretelling His crucifixion. Modern-day society doesn't just do that anymore. God bless.

Modern day society doesn't do what? Crucifixion? Give prophecies?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

While I believe that there may have been someone who did inspire the Jesus stories, as for the most part what he is described as doing is really no different than any typical shaman, and we do know people who get vocal about peace and unity are prone to meeting violent ends, things such as human parthenogenesis, the dead coming back to life, and all these "miracles" are just not things that happen in real life, but are only found in stories, commonly the religious stories of countless cultures over the ages. As the Jesus story goes in the Bible, there really isn't anything new that some other virgin-birthed, miracle performing, slain and resurrected messiah and god didn't do before the Jesus stories came to be.

 

[columbus]

Everyone, before you start setting your keyboard on fire because I said, "God bless" I did not say it as an act of mockery, I simply said it because I truly wish for my God in heaven's loving-kindness to be upon you. Cheers.

Hang around a bit.
That doesn't set keyboards on fire around here.
I always capitalize Him when I am referring to anybody's version of god image because it is the polite thing to do.
Tom

 

[illykitty]

Thank you for pointing that out.

I think he means there's more than those four options. Here's my thoughts for instance:

-He didn't exist. He's a complete fabrication by people who wanted to create a new religion.
-He existed but was just some guy (or maybe a cult leader) and people deified him. People over time created myths about him and so on. Then a bunch of people voted on which myths they would codify as the religion (because as we know, there's some that didn't make it through) and the result are present day Christianities.

There many other possibilities of what people might think. Heck one of the possible thought is that people have no thoughts about him at all. Seems a bit limited to think that those four are the only options, but that wouldn't fit the narrative...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm trying to find the "historical" part of this "proof"

That's only because it's totally absent, rendering the "proof" totally worthless. Who would have guessed?

 

[TruthEnder]

I, for one, am overwhelmed by this historical proof of Jesus. Why do I doubt Jesus anyway?

I'll come back to this question with more insight.

 

[Animore]

I have edited in more historical evidence, archaeological evidence, and ruled in another possibility of Him being a prophet or someone spiritual but not the Christ.

 

[Animore]

I, for one, am overwhelmed by this historical proof of Jesus. Why do I doubt Jesus anyway?

I'll come back to this question with more insight.

Check the edit.

 

[Animore]

That's only because it's totally absent, rendering the "proof" totally worthless. Who would have guessed?

Check the edit.

 

[Animore]

*yawn*
I am still waiting for you start with the "historical" part...
You have not presented anything in which to rebut.
With you taking this long to start with the "historical" part, I am having serious doubts about the "overwhelming" part.....

Thus far your thread title looks to be nothig but a bait and switch

Check the edit.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Check the edit.

As I said: worthless.

 

[Animore]

While I believe that there may have been someone who did inspire the Jesus stories, as for the most part what he is described as doing is really no different than any typical shaman, and we do know people who get vocal about peace and unity are prone to meeting violent ends, things such as human parthenogenesis, the dead coming back to life, and all these "miracles" are just not things that happen in real life, but are only found in stories, commonly the religious stories of countless cultures over the ages. As the Jesus story goes in the Bible, there really isn't anything new that some other virgin-birthed, miracle performing, slain and resurrected messiah and god didn't do before the Jesus stories came to be.

I gave my thoughts on that in my edit.

 

[Animore]

As I said: worthless.

Then clearly you're as stubborn as a mule.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please read this in full. Take your time. It's not a challenge just giving you an insight.

Hello everyone. This is my first. Please don't hate. I've come not just to establish an old-fashioned debate, but to help some people establish some faith and maybe help someone through a tough time. First off, obviously, the debate is going to be centered around Jesus, the existence of Him (I say Him because it is my OP, and it is my personal beliefs that He is God) as God, as well as the Son of God, as well as overwhelming historical, theological, archaeological, and scientific evidence favoring the proof of God. Let's start with the simple one.

#1: The Scripture

Now, this is an obvious one. Obviously the Scriptures. I know, it's not the best start, but it's laying down the foundations. Let's start with the prophecies.

The Messiah will be the offspring (descendant) of the woman (Eve) Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4
The Messiah will be a descendant of Abraham, through whom everyone on earth will be blessed Genesis 12:3; 18:18 Acts 3:25,26
The Messiah will be a descendant of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2 and Luke 3:33
The Messiah will be a prophet like Moses Deuteronomy 18:15-19 Acts 3:22,23
The Messiah will be the Son of God Psalm 2:7 Matthew 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22
The Messiah will be raised from the dead (resurrected) Psalm 16:10,11 Matthew 28:5-9; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:4-7; John 20:11-16; Acts 1:3 and 2:32
The Messiah crucifixion experience Psalm 22 (contains 11 prophecies—not all listed here) Matthew 27:34-50 and John 19:17-30
The Messiah will be sneered at and mocked Psalm 22:7 Luke 23:11,35-39
The Messiah will be pierced through hands and feet Psalm 22:16 Luke 23:33 and 24:36-39;
John 19:18 and 20:19-20,24-27
The Messiah’s bones will not be broken (a person’s legs were usually broken after being crucified to speed up their death) Psalm 22:17 and 34:20 John 19:31-33,36
Men Will Gamble for the Messiah’s clothing Psalm 22:18 Matthew 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23,24
The Messiah will accused by false witnesses Psalm 35:11 Matthew 26:59,60 and Mark 14:56,57
The Messiah will be hated without a cause Psalm 35:19 and 69:4 John 15:23-25
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend Psalm 41:9 John 13:18,21
The Messiah will ascend to heaven (at the right hand of God) Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9; 2:33-35; 3:20-21; 5:31,32; 7:55-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20,21; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Pet 3:22 . . . list goes on an on.
The Messiah will be given vinegar and gall to drink Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:29,30
Great kings will pay homage and tribute to the Messiah Psalm 72:10,11 Matthew 2:1-11
The Messiah is a “stone the builders rejected” who will become the “head cornerstone” Psalm 118:22,23 and Isaiah 28:16 Matthew 21:42,43; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6-8
The Messiah will be a descendant of David Psalm 132:11 and Jeremiah 23:5,6; 33:15,16 Luke 1:32,33
The Messiah will be a born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke 1:26-35
The Messiah’s first spiritual work will be in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-7 Matthew 4:12-16
The Messiah will make the blind see, the deaf hear, etc. Isaiah 35:5-6 Many places. Also see Matthew 11:3-6 and John 11:47
The Messiah will be beaten, mocked, and spat upon Isaiah 50:6 Matthew 26:67 and 27:26-31
The “Gospel according to Isaiah” Isaiah 52:13-53:12 Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
People will hear and not believe the “arm of the LORD” (Messiah) Isaiah 53:1 John 12:37,38
The Messiah will be rejected Isaiah 53:3 Matthew 27:20-25; Mark 15:8-14; Luke 23:18-23; John 19:14,15
The Messiah will be killed Isaiah 53:5-9 Matthew 27:50; Mark 15:37-39; Luke 23:46; John 19:30
The Messiah will be silent in front of his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 26:62,63 and 27:12-14
The Messiah will be buried with the rich Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:59,60; Mark 15:46; Luke 23:52,53; John 19:38-42
The Messiah will be crucified with criminals Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32,33
The Messiah is part of the new and everlasting covenant Isaiah 55:3-4 and Jeremiah 31:31-34 Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; Hebrews 8:6-13
The Messiah will be our intercessor (intervene for us and plead on our behalf) Isaiah 59:16 Hebrews 9:15
The Messiah has two missions Isaiah 61:1-3 (first mission ends at “. . . year of the LORD’s favor”) First mission: Luke 4:16-21; Second mission: to be fulfilled at the end of the world
The Messiah will come at a specific time Daniel 9:25-26 Galatians 4:4 and Ephesians 1:10
The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:1 and Luke 2:4-7
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem riding a donkey Zechariah 9:9 Matthew 21:1-11
The Messiah will be sold for 30 pieces of silver Zechariah 11:12,13 Matthew 26:15 with Matthew 27:3-10
The Messiah will forsaken by His disciples Zechariah 13:7 Matthew 26:31,56
The Messiah will enter the Temple with authority Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12 and Luke 19:45

There, after e got all of those clobber passages out of the way, if you're still not convinced, let's just look for a moment at the similarities of the gospels proclaimed in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I added in this bit because it's important to note that many people point out contradictions in the Bible. (Really, they aren't contradictions, but just aren't specific quoting, noted by the punctuation in early Scripture, but that's not important) The gospels are similar in a huge variety of ways, but just different enough to tell they had different witnesses.

#2 Who could He be?

So it always has come down to five possibilities of who Jesus is...

-A liar
-A delusional psychotic
-Someone who never made claims of Messiahship
-A great spiritual soul, not fully understood.
-The one true Messiah, the Christ come into the world

Well let's assess the first possibility, that he is a liar.

There's a simple answer to this one: he couldn't be a great teacher if he was liar. Yes, theoretically, he could just make up some phony bologna parables and life lessons and pretend to follow him, but there's key point that takes that out: all those around saw that He had committed no sin. That would mean he followed some moral philosophy, and it would make perfect sense if it would be what He preached.

So now that we saw that He wasn't a liar, let's go on to the next possibility- delusions.

A simple answer for this as well. In all of the times the disciples and citizens of each town saw him, there was no evidence to show that he suffered from any mental disorder. The only argument for this would be that, supposedly, the burning passion for God's house is only a symptom o his disorder. Except all that was described that in an act of burning desire to purify God's house, He trashed the area in righteous anger. He did not attack anyone, and if he did it was to get them out of the temple.

Now let's look at the third possibility-He never made claims of Messiah-ship.

To give a rebuttal to this point, we must give a quick look at Jesus dying at the cross. Just a quick fact: two atheist historians concluded that Jesus's dying on the cross is an actual certainty. Well, why did He die on the cross? Because of His claims of Messiah-ship.

Now, let's look at the fourth possibility- A spiritual soul, not understood fully.

This is a fair point. You cannot fully understand Jesus, His teachings, and His glory, and you can't really know what was going on in His head. You must rely on scripture alone, and deductive reasoning. As He was spiritual and faithful towards the Lord in heaven, showing capabilities of amazing things, if He was just a prophet or spiritual but not the Son of God, then He could not be a true prophet or spiritual being, because He would be a cold liar. God would have eventually told Him straight out that He wasn't the Christ and to stop acting like He was, and revealed to everyone that He wasn't.

That leaves only one possibility left: He is the chosen Messiah.

#3- The Tomb

Yes, it is obviously not the best piece of evidence, but it is noteworthy. The empty tomb of Christ in Israel has brought a lot of questions, and criticism. Let's look at this criticism individually.

-It is the wrong tomb.

Couldn't be. When Mary Magdalene found the tomb empty, Jesus's clothes were laid on the ground.

-The Romans Took The Body

Why would they? If they took the body, they would help give faith in the one belief they wanted people not to believe in with a burning passion.

-The disciples took the body.

How could they? The Romans were guarding the tomb. No one could have gotten in, and no one could have gotten in.

-Jesus simply fainted, and woke up a while after.

It would hardly seem plausible for a man with nails dug into his arms and legs, beaten, whipped, and stabbed in the side to be able to get up, move a hundred-pound boulder, and walk miles upon miles away and not be caught or die from pain and exhaustion.

#4- Saul's Convictions

This is a simple one, but during the time Saul had not been converted, he had been killing Christians for their beliefs. During this time, he had seen Jesus with his own eyes, and believed, which sparked his repentance. This means Jesus did indeed claim to be the Messiah. Not a legend.



I'm going to abruptly end this now. Ready for hate replies.

This would all have to rest on if the opposing party believes scripture is a common foundation to build our debate on. Since scripture isn't a universal means to establish debates (but personal, by no means), are there other sources that support your points about whether he is delusional, teacher, messiah, or true messiah?

Then, once you find the sources that "say" this, can you cross-reference these claims with miracles that take place that are not based on synchronicity and a person's belief?

For example, I am a Spiritualist (I commune with the spirits for lack of better words). I follow The Buddha (not formally a Buddhist yet), I believe that our source of knowledge and what we perceive as the heart are from the mind. That's our foundation.

I can give you testimony of my grandmothers holding me back from getting hit by a car. I can give you a testimony that my prayers to the spirits helped my father in his health from liver failure.

What does that mean to you in a debate?

Even more so, I can give you sutras (Buddha's discourses) that explain the nature of life and where our motivations etc come from. I can explain the role of what a Buddha is from a Mahayana perspective. I can even relate it to reality.

What does this mean to you?

In the former, I can't give you outside sources that support my point just as you can't with god. Spirits and god (and Jesus/spirit/god) does not exist the way we can prove it historically. We can only say "other people say this" or say "because X happened then it must be true."

What does that mean to other people here that will challenge your OP?

On the other hand, I can back up Buddhist teachings with outside sources and how it relates to reality even if people don't see it from the teachings of The Buddha.

That can't be done in Christianity. Buddhism is a mind-faith. Christianity is a heart-faith.

So to say you can claim Jesus/spirit/god exists historically is a claim just as Paul made a claim and every other person.

Once we realize these spirit-tual beliefs are personal and not objective (like Buddhism), then we don't need to find ways for others to understand why and how they exist and are true. They come from us (or from god or from Joe Smoe). Once we stop making people understand spirit-uality, then what is there more to say?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Personally, I am not going to go back and keep rereading edits--which you have not clearly marked--on your OP to find out if and/or how you responded to various people's questions/points.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then clearly you're as stubborn as a mule.

Does your flavor of Christianity understand the difference between attacking the claim and attacking the person?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What if Jesus existed, but the legend you are referring to was created afterwards?
What if it were a sort of docudrama, fiction wrapped around actual events?

The character Jesus described by Christians isn't necessarily, or even plausibly, limited to Lewis' "Lord, Liar, Lunatic".
Legend is the most plausible explanation to those of us more interested in reality than ideological theology.

Welcome to RF. Nice to meet you.
Tom

That's actually a good and interesting book by the way.