"Mother of God"

[metis]

One of the catch phrases that one hears if one attends a Catholic Church is "Mother of God", as pertaining to Mary, Jesus' mother.

Quite a few years ago I was talking with a colleague who was and is Baptist and who is actually pretty theologically astute, and in conversation I mentioned the Catholic's belief in Mary being the "Mother of God", and he was taken aback by that. Knowing that he believed in the "trinitarian concept", I found it sort of humorous that this seemed to floor him, and he had no response back.

So, for especially those whom are trinitarians, does this terminology set well with you?

 

[rusra02]

One of the catch phrases that one hears if one attends a Catholic Church is "Mother of God", as pertaining to Mary, Jesus' mother.

Quite a few years ago I was talking with a colleague who was and is Baptist and who is actually pretty theologically astute, and in conversation I mentioned the Catholic's belief in Mary being the "Mother of God", and he was taken aback by that. Knowing that he believed in the "trinitarian concept", I found it sort of humorous that this seemed to floor him, and he had no response back.

So, for especially those whom are trinitarians, does this terminology set well with you?

Just one more twisted doctrine, based on the false doctrine of the trinity.

 

[Shiranui117]

One of the catch phrases that one hears if one attends a Catholic Church is "Mother of God", as pertaining to Mary, Jesus' mother.

Quite a few years ago I was talking with a colleague who was and is Baptist and who is actually pretty theologically astute, and in conversation I mentioned the Catholic's belief in Mary being the "Mother of God", and he was taken aback by that. Knowing that he believed in the "trinitarian concept", I found it sort of humorous that this seemed to floor him, and he had no response back.

So, for especially those whom are trinitarians, does this terminology set well with you?

Of course. Many Protestants tend closer towards Nestorianism (the belief that Jesus is made up of two persons, one human and one divine that kinda happen to share a body), so it's no surprise that this would have shocked your Baptist friend.

Calling Mary "Mother of God" isn't saying that she created God. Rather, it's simply saying that Jesus didn't stop being God the Son when He became human. He was God before He was born of Mary, and He was still God after being born of Mary. Therefore, it is proper to call her "Mother of God"--or, as the Greek word Theotokos can also be translated, "Birth-giver of God". This is also a title that we have written evidence of as early as 250 AD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

 

[Etritonakin]

Mary is referred to by one in scripture as "the mother of my Lord".

She is the mother of Christ in an earthly sense -though it should be easily understood that he existed as the Word before becoming flesh for a time.

She is certainly important and was given a great honor.

I disagree, however, with the idea of praying to her -or even the idea that she is presently aware to be able to hear prayers.

We are instructed by Christ to pray directly to the Father -in the name of the Son.
Nowhere are we instructed to pray to any other.

Furthermore, it is made clear in scripture that no man has ascended to heaven except Christ. Though the spirits of the dead go to God who gave them, they are not aware -are as asleep -until resurrected later at the return of Christ for those in Christ -and a thousand years later for the rest of the dead.
The dead in Christ -those who sleep -will rise first -and be caught up with the living -meet Christ in the air -and then reign with him on Earth.

Some say the thief on the cross is in heaven with Christ -but Christ said "paradise" -not heaven -and Christ did not even ascend that day.
The thief died. The thief is still dead. However, from his point of view, there will be no passage of time between falling asleep and waking again when resurrected to the paradise the earth will become.

The meek shall inherit the earth.

 

[Aštra’el]

Though there would be several generations between them, I would go with "Tiamat". The mother archetype is unfitting, however. Rather, primordial Creation and Destruction would be better fitting... a deific archetypal combination eventually inherited by YHWH... with one profound difference being that Tiamat embodies Chaos and YHWH embodies Order.

 

[Estro Felino]

Calling Mary "Mother of God" isn't saying that she created God. Rather, it's simply saying that Jesus didn't stop being God the Son when He became human. He was God before He was born of Mary, and He was still God after being born of Mary. Therefore, it is proper to call her "Mother of God". This is also a title that we have written evidence of as early as 250 AD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium

Even if I don't disagree with what you said, we have to underline that the dogma "Mother of God" is the solely key to really understand Christianity. And it has nothing to do with the Trinity.
You are wrong when you say that Mary didn't create God. She did create God because she believed in the divinity of man, through the choice of love. So, by this way, she was able to incarnate God in her womb ...because Love is a choice. Mary was not a passive, obedient servant: she is the first human who actively used her free will to change the human nature into a divine one, because she is the embodiment of the fullness of times.
Jesus is the fruit of Her love...and is God in the human form.
People don't understand this, because they believe Christianity is theocentric. Jesus' message is totally anthropocentric...and I want to quote an excellent Italian Catholic bishop. He says " Jesus has somehow eliminated the sacred, because He said that the sacred is actually the human".

 

[Brickjectivity]

So, for especially those whom are trinitarians, does this terminology set well with you?

Its a supremely weird concept to most US churches. It conjures up images of gorillas hitting rocks with sticks. That may sound ironic to some who feel its an important doctrine. We (Brick of the long past) would not know the term 'Nestorianism' either and would consider it to be a silly word, probably invented by a 'Katholick' to justify their own position by placing conversation out of reach -- you know to thicken the books to the point that you can't remember the beginning by the time you're in the middle.

 

[Shiranui117]

Even if I don't disagree with what you said, we have to underline that the dogma "Mother of God" is the solely key to really understand Christianity. And it has nothing to do with the Trinity.
You are wrong when you say that Mary didn't create God. She did create God because she believed in the divinity of man, through the choice of love. So, by this way, she was able to incarnate God in her womb ...because Love is a choice. Mary was not a passive, obedient servant: she is the first human who actively used her free will to change the human nature into a divine one, because she is the embodiment of the fullness of times.
Jesus is the fruit of Her love...and is God in the human form.
People don't understand this, because they believe Christianity is theocentric. Jesus' message is totally anthropocentric...and I want to quote an excellent Italian Catholic bishop. He says " Jesus has somehow eliminated the sacred, because He said that the sacred is actually the human".

You can believe whatever you want, and I don't have a problem with it. But please don't make it sound like the Catholic Church teaches what you're saying. It doesn't, and you risk misinforming and misleading people. Even if an Italian bishop teaches what you do, that in no way makes it official Catholic teaching. If a bishop teaches as you do, he will likely be removed from his bishopric and excommunicated for heresy.

What I have said is in perfect accordance with the Council of Ephesus, which is the Third Ecumenical Council, whose teaching is upheld as infallible by the Catholic Church. According to the Church, Mary did NOT create God. God is the eternal Creator, and man is the created, not the other way around. Mary gave birth to the pre-existing and eternal Word. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 495. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One of the catch phrases that one hears if one attends a Catholic Church is "Mother of God", as pertaining to Mary, Jesus' mother.

Quite a few years ago I was talking with a colleague who was and is Baptist and who is actually pretty theologically astute, and in conversation I mentioned the Catholic's belief in Mary being the "Mother of God", and he was taken aback by that. Knowing that he believed in the "trinitarian concept", I found it sort of humorous that this seemed to floor him, and he had no response back.

So, for especially those whom are trinitarians, does this terminology set well with you?

It's a silly debate on the play of words, to put it bluntly. If the trinity is true, and Jesus is god, he still has a human mother. Given the fact he has a human mother and he is god, she is the "Mother of God."

Unless they should say "Mother of Jesus"? To a trinitarian, would that make a difference? Or is it because Catholics say it its a big issue?

Whats the problemo?

 

[Aštra’el]

Jesus is not YHWH

 

[Estro Felino]

You can believe whatever you want, and I don't have a problem with it. But please don't make it sound like the Catholic Church teaches what you're saying. It doesn't, and you risk misinforming and misleading people. Even if an Italian bishop teaches what you do, that in no way makes it official Catholic teaching. If a bishop teaches as you do, he will likely be removed from his bishopric and excommunicated for heresy.

What I have said is in perfect accordance with the Council of Ephesus, which is the Third Ecumenical Council, whose teaching is upheld as infallible by the Catholic Church. According to the Church, Mary did NOT create God. God is the eternal Creator, and man is the created, not the other way around. Mary gave birth to the pre-existing and eternal Word. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 495. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p2.htm

Well...I thought it was obvious that what I said is just my personal opinion, and has nothing to do with the Catholic doctrine. But you're right, I should have said it...and it's good you underlined it, to avoid misunderstandings.
Even if I was raised Catholic (and I attended Catechism classes), I always underline I'm a Pelagian, so I believe exclusively in those concepts which don't contradict the radical doctrine of free will. According to this doctrine, God has never interfered with human history, so He didn't even decide or plan Jesus' coming.
By the way, being a heretic is not a bad thing..it's something that makes me proud, because "heresy" means choice in Greek...so I have deliberately chosen this doctrine, and I deeply respect your Catholic beliefs...also because I don't possess the absolute truth.

 

[psychoslice]

For me personally Mother Mary is a nice little belief, but that is all it is.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Though there would be several generations between them, I would go with "Tiamat". The mother archetype is unfitting, however. Rather, primordial Creation and Destruction would be better fitting... a deific archetypal combination eventually inherited by YHWH... with one profound difference being that Tiamat embodies Chaos and YHWH embodies Order.

Imagine we live and exist in the eye of a giant storm, and there is no way to penetrate it. From time to time it deposits a cow or some other useful item such as the occasional house. We have to stay calm as crystals since we're fragile as fudge, milk the cow and sleep in the house. If that storm moves then so do we. Is this how you envision Mary? She is the living storm?

 

[Aštra’el]

Imagine we live and exist in the eye of a giant storm, and there is no way to penetrate it. From time to time it deposits a cow or some other useful item such as the occasional house. We have to stay calm as crystals since we're fragile as fudge, milk the cow and sleep in the house. If that storm moves then so do we. Is this how you envision Mary? She is the living storm?

No. There is no "Mary mother of God". No human was ever the mother of YHWH, at least, not in my spiritual-religious system.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No. There is no "Mary mother of God". No human was ever the mother of YHWH, at least, not in my spiritual-religious system.

You can't keep a tilly in a tutu shop. If that is directed at me I don't think it is answering the question, because I haven't seen anyone in the thread suggesting the Jesus is YHWH. I may have overlooked it. It is a common misconception but not one I entertain. I don't even think the NT suggests it.

Though there would be several generations between them, I would go with "Tiamat". The mother archetype is unfitting, however. Rather, primordial Creation and Destruction would be better fitting... a deific archetypal combination eventually inherited by YHWH... with one profound difference being that Tiamat embodies Chaos and YHWH embodies Order.

I still find this interesting. I will look up the concept of Tiamat etc.

 

[Kapalika]

I don't see much value in Christianity in general, but I will add that at least Catholics see the value of the feminine in divinity. There is, IMO, a "mother of God" which I see as Kali Maa, the mother and wife of Shiva. Unfortunately much of the world is poached in patriarchy and sees femininity as unable to be divine.

There is a mother of God, as women give birth to *everything*. What you see that as... as either Mary of Kali or whatever... it doesn't matter... it just matters that you see female as important as it's counterpart of male in daily life as well as divinity.

 

[metis]

Just one more twisted doctrine, based on the false doctrine of the trinity.

So @Shiranui117 post is wrong? How?

 

[Brickjectivity]

I don't see much value in Christianity in general, but I will add that at least Catholics see the value of the feminine in divinity. There is, IMO, a "mother of God" which I see as Kali Maa, the mother and wife of Shiva. Unfortunately much of the world is poached in patriarchy and sees femininity as unable to be divine.

There is a mother of God, as women give birth to *everything*. What you see that as... as either Mary of Kali or whatever... it doesn't matter... it just matters that you see female as important as it's counterpart of male in daily life as well as divinity.

So Mary is, you suppose, the representative in Christianity of some feminine aspect of divinity? This is because she is female and because Jesus the Father are male? I do not think this is how many Christians think about Mary. I think there are tiny connections to the Jewish ideas about masculine and feminine that people often don't notice, and I think only the liturgical churches usually have an appreciation of a divine feminine if at all. They have the prayers to Mary and female saints.

 

[metis]

It seems that if one believes in the Trinity, namely that Jesus is God, and since Mary gave birth to Jesus, does that not make Mary the "Mother of God"? Isn't this just connecting the dots? If not, why not?

 

[Aštra’el]

If that is directed at me I don't think it is answering the question, because I haven't seen anyone in the thread suggesting the Jesus is YHWH. I may have overlooked it. It is a common misconception but not one I entertain. I don't even think the NT suggests it.

It wasn't directed towards anyone. All I was saying is... in my spiritual-religious system, Mary might have been the mother of Jesus, but Jesus (if Jesus existed) is not viewed as God. I use the title "God" to refer to YHWH, though I would use the title "god" or "goddess" to refer to other deities... many of which Christians might understand as "demons" or "angels". Jesus (if Jesus even existed) is viewed as a mortal in my spiritual religious system... a teacher and prophet- but not a god. So, Jesus would not be viewed as God (or a god) and thus the term "Mary Mother of God" is not a phrase I would use within my spiritual-religious system.