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Trapped People

Bird123

Well-Known Member
There are practices in my Faith such as not drinking alcohol...no use of illegal drugs..No sex outside marriage ... No partisanship in politics...No gambling.. , etc. these are "rules" I've adopted since becoming a Baha'i some forty years ago. I've had no desire to be "free" from these "rules" and am quite happy how my life has turned out.

So we're aware of how people live around us and we sometimes consider them unwholesome and maybe sad for them especially when it's obvious. But since we don't accept a personage like the "Devil" that is say at war with God we don't believe the people are possessed or damned as such. They have the potential to change and grow as we do...


I think it's all about learning. People can be restricted by rules, however some need to make that bad choice in order to learn that it is a bad choice. If they are prevented from learning for whatever reason, anger and hurt will encompass their life.

I was giving advice to a teenager one day. I asked them. Do you want to learn the hard way or the easy way. They said they wanted to learn the hard way. Some just must Live the lessons to ever learn them.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
When I was a super-Conservative Baptist, there was no desire for freedom, as it was believed we were the ones who were free while the rest of the world was enslaved to sin.


Since you said WAS, I assume that you did widen that view to allow the light of reality to shine in on you. Good for you! It probably wasn't the easiest thing to do.

My next question: Do your old Super-Conservative Baptist friends now look down on you??
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I understand where you coming from; and, I don't feel it's all that simple, though.
Having been taught since birth is a powerful force in all religions. On the other hand, one should always reach a stage where they become more than the sum of their teachings. If one fails to do this, how can one fully express that which is special of themselves.

If one feels they reach their full expression of themselves within their religion, how would that be wrong? I mean, I couldn't express my full self in Catholicism because I felt I was sinning even when I never sinned. I was always in the Church praying-which is a blessing-and the catch-22, it makes you feel you are a sinner before you enter the sanctuary.

However, my feelings and the way I view spirituality and where I find wholeness is completely different than a Catholic. We both express our full selves. If we do so in a healthy manner, without using our experiences to judge right/wrong, what is wrong with being free to express oneself in religion?

This is without your personal experiences. Just in general. I mean, I can see how Catholicism makes people feel that they are sinning--but that's my experience. Catholicism doesn't teach that. So, I can't use that as a reason why others can't feel that expression in Catholicism. I can only share how I feel about it.

You made the comment they do not know to question. Perhaps, parents should teach their children to question everything. To question is the start on the journey to Discovery. Sure, it might be easier to raise kids that do not question but to teach kids not to question limits them from the truth and knowledge yet undiscovered. I think views should be limitless.

I guess it goes back to whether it is healthy or not. My friend was born in the Jewish tradition, she was raised Catholic, and I don't think she would be alive (she has life/death chronic conditions) if she didn't have her faith. I feel it limits her and she feels that she doesn't want to question her faith. She says it makes her doubt it. That's not wrong. I'm the opposite. If I don't question, I feel trapped.

However, when she doesn't question, she feels supported and secured. Even though that is odd to me how is that wrong objectively to be secured and supported in your faith by not questioning it? What is the worst that can happen in a healthy religious household if the family doesn't teach their children to question their beliefs? What is the benefit for them not for us?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
My next question: Do your old Super-Conservative Baptist friends now look down on you??
Haven't seen them since. But a guy I thought was my friend in high school did tell me I was demonically possessed and become the first of many people to tell me I'm going to Hell.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?



Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
They are so anxious to get out from under their yoke that they often accuse those who do no share their beliefs of not doing so just so that they may have those freedoms.
 

Kent856

Member
The rules i follow are restrictive... Of course they are. Rules place restrictions on what we can and can't do. However, i willingly obey these rules because i know the outcome will be better for me if i do.
Sometimes i want to break the rules, because in the society I live in moral rules aren't really subscribed to at all.

Also I don't feel any bad feelings to anyone else whatsoever. I choose my path you choose yours.
 

Eliab ben Benjamin

Active Member
Premium Member
Only one set of rules conflicts with my life (occupation) .. Sabbath .. and being on call 24/7.

You see i am the Biomedical Engineer for the ICU and NICU, so should there be a life
support problem I am called in 24/7 ...
Saving lives seems a more than acceptable consequence of my choice to on rare
occasion break Sabbath laws ... Grin, the biggest consequence is the arguments
with management when i refuse to put those days on my timesheet, or as they suggest,
put the time on another day....
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I understand where you coming from; and, I don't feel it's all that simple, though.


If one feels they reach their full expression of themselves within their religion, how would that be wrong? I mean, I couldn't express my full self in Catholicism because I felt I was sinning even when I never sinned. I was always in the Church praying-which is a blessing-and the catch-22, it makes you feel you are a sinner before you enter the sanctuary.

However, my feelings and the way I view spirituality and where I find wholeness is completely different than a Catholic. We both express our full selves. If we do so in a healthy manner, without using our experiences to judge right/wrong, what is wrong with being free to express oneself in religion?

This is without your personal experiences. Just in general. I mean, I can see how Catholicism makes people feel that they are sinning--but that's my experience. Catholicism doesn't teach that. So, I can't use that as a reason why others can't feel that expression in Catholicism. I can only share how I feel about it.



I guess it goes back to whether it is healthy or not. My friend was born in the Jewish tradition, she was raised Catholic, and I don't think she would be alive (she has life/death chronic conditions) if she didn't have her faith. I feel it limits her and she feels that she doesn't want to question her faith. She says it makes her doubt it. That's not wrong. I'm the opposite. If I don't question, I feel trapped.

However, when she doesn't question, she feels supported and secured. Even though that is odd to me how is that wrong objectively to be secured and supported in your faith by not questioning it? What is the worst that can happen in a healthy religious household if the family doesn't teach their children to question their beliefs? What is the benefit for them not for us?


I guess I am worried about the Brainwashing factor. What a person believes is often what they become. Can they become who they were meant to be, convinced throughout childhood beliefs that might limit their actions and choices? Can true diversity ever be express when there are limits to our thinking?

Perhaps there are many lessons to be learned limited such as how to think for oneself. Maybe when one follows long enough they get tired of it then learns to guide their own choices.

Contentment is great and I know many people have that through their religions. On the other hand, since there is always more knowledge to learn, discover, and acquire, can one really ever be content? My hunger to know keeps me moving forward.

Yes, I am like you. I would feel trapped if I could not question everything. Yes, there are many issues around religion.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
The rules i follow are restrictive... Of course they are. Rules place restrictions on what we can and can't do. However, i willingly obey these rules because i know the outcome will be better for me if i do.
Sometimes i want to break the rules, because in the society I live in moral rules aren't really subscribed to at all.

Also I don't feel any bad feelings to anyone else whatsoever. I choose my path you choose yours.

Ah yes, what are your "feelings" and "thoughts" about "anyone" who has left your organization or teaches against your organization?
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Haven't seen them since. But a guy I thought was my friend in high school did tell me I was demonically possessed and become the first of many people to tell me I'm going to Hell.

Well, if you question them at all that is what you get. I have even been called satan himself. Hmmm? Now where did I leave my pitchfork?

I have a friend who is a pastor of a small church. He kept asking me to go to his church. He really only wanted more donations. I asked him what he would do if I started asking a bunch of questions that he would have trouble answering. He said they would usher me out of church. So, they are not interested in truth. They just want their view.

I do think it is sad people get in the shape they do. Everyone should at least be open to hear and consider the views of others. I have to believe at some point in everyone's life truth does become more important. Time will tell.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
They are so anxious to get out from under their yoke that they often accuse those who do no share their beliefs of not doing so just so that they may have those freedoms.


Yes, pointing those fingers puts the attention away from themselves. It is sad.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
The rules i follow are restrictive... Of course they are. Rules place restrictions on what we can and can't do. However, i willingly obey these rules because i know the outcome will be better for me if i do.
Sometimes i want to break the rules, because in the society I live in moral rules aren't really subscribed to at all.

Also I don't feel any bad feelings to anyone else whatsoever. I choose my path you choose yours.


Yes, everyone should be allowed to learn their own lessons.

As for rules, when one understands all sides, rules are not needed. Intelligence will choose the best choice. To me, it's all about learning and really Understanding.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Only one set of rules conflicts with my life (occupation) .. Sabbath .. and being on call 24/7.

You see i am the Biomedical Engineer for the ICU and NICU, so should there be a life
support problem I am called in 24/7 ...
Saving lives seems a more than acceptable consequence of my choice to on rare
occasion break Sabbath laws ... Grin, the biggest consequence is the arguments
with management when i refuse to put those days on my timesheet, or as they suggest,
put the time on another day....


I saw this TV commercial where a father was asking for a sick day off taking care of his kid. He took the cold medicine instead. There are jobs that have no time off. In your case, think of the kindness you are doing by working. After all, you prevent others from breaking their Sabbath laws.

It would be different if you were just after money. There are many people who must work on Holidays as well. Life does not stop for Sabbath or Holidays.

Hmmm? Think of all those pastors working on the Sabbath. Hey! That's their job! See, no rule is 100 percent without exceptions.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Thank you for having more of an inquisitive rather than debating
I guess I am worried about the Brainwashing factor. What a person believes is often what they become. Can they become who they were meant to be, convinced throughout childhood beliefs that might limit their actions and choices?

The issue with that thought, though, is assuming that religious indoctrinated people are limited because they were not give choices outside of their religious paths. I see this in a couple of ways. Is it healthy? Whose choice is it anyway?

If the indoctrination isn't healthy-say priests yelling at congregants and threatening them to hell, then, yes, I can see why a lot of people leave religion. However, that is not what religion is about. Unless that congregant doesn't believe the actual faith regardless of the people, I don't see his reason for leaving the Church unless it was just a decision or something he experience that he didn't like (among other healthy or unhealthy decisions). However, I never actually heard anyone leave the Church and any religion "just because."

Then you have to think of "whose chose is it anyway?" Are they brainwashed or do some of them actually choose to stay in their cultured or adopted faith because it gives them a connection with family and their community as a whole?

It's not just about the person, though. Many cultures build their foundation off of their faith. A couple of people here say they are atheist or non-religious and they still practice the teachings of their religion they still have because it is part of tradition and family.

So, there are a lot of factors involved. Some people feel limited and leave family/religion. I mean, when I went to the Church, an African American male (I'm African American) said, "so you went to a white Church, huh?" He seriously meant I disowned "our" religion and tradition handed down to us. Basically, I disowned the community. This was a stranger.

It really depends on whether one is in a healthy environment and/or how that person sees his religion in relation to himself, his family, and his environment. Outside of that, I can see your point.

Can true diversity ever be express when there are limits to our thinking?
Not everyone desires diversity in thought. I mean, my friend doesn't want to study other religions because she felt it would confuse her faith-even though she has practiced since birth. It's not limitation from her point of view and I understand why. Just for me, I find it weird but that's my morals not a universal moral that everyone should abide by or else.

In my opinion, if we are limited in thinking, then diversity in thought is hard if not impossible. I feel every religious should have some knowledge and/or experience in other faiths to really appreciate their own. I have a Jehovah Witness friend and her trainee who asked me about my faith. We talked about Paganism (at the time) and The Buddhist faith. They looked it up. We exchanged our religions and our realities.

Another JW asked me the same thing as I used to always see her at the bus stop every morning to work. We talked, she was interested, and, of course told me about her beliefs. It was respectful.

Bahai, at least online I haven't met any Bahai in person, seem to be open to diversity as well.

So, it depends on the people (in JW case) and it depends on the religion and its tenants (Baha'i case).

Perhaps there are many lessons to be learned limited such as how to think for oneself. Maybe when one follows long enough they get tired of it then learns to guide their own choices.

That depends on if you limit religious people as if they cannot make their own choices. The Buddhist school I follow doesn't allow me to make any choice I want to. I am limited in that the focus of how I become free (unlimited) is addressing the workings of the mind (rather than heart as in, say, Christianity). It doesn't feel like limitation because the mind does a lot of things and when we understand it, being religious is being free.

That's how religion, I feel, should be. It should make you free. I gravitate to freedom of expression. If I don't have that within religion, it doesn't work.

Even though Buddhism is strict, we still make our own choices. That is the point of it, actually. In Christianity, it is actually the same way (depending on denomination is depending on the severity of it). The actual teachings of Christ does not promote obedience (do this or else) it promotes worship and reverence that benefits the believer ( if you follow me, I give you this). The former, I see in Islam, the latter, in Christianity and like faiths.

The issue is the denomination not the religion and sacred text. In Christianity, OT god killed so many people and his intention was for the good of the people. Jesus Christ warned against disobeying his father. It put more emphasis on the believer's heart rather than the believer's actions as in the OT.

It's another way of saying "free will." They have freedom of choice. They choose to follow Christ and with that comes responsibilities (not rules and regulations). If I had a job, with that comes responsibilities. Same as religion. Unless someone corrects me, Muslim is the only religion I know that focus more on obedience.

Contentment is great and I know many people have that through their religions. On the other hand, since there is always more knowledge to learn, discover, and acquire, can one really ever be content? My hunger to know keeps me moving forward.

Some people are actually content in the real sense of the word. They (as I mentioned with the JW above) acquire and discover. It depends on the denomination and religion rather than a generalization of religion and the religious as a whole.

My friend feels content via security, support, and relationship with her culture.

I feel secure by freedom of expression, understanding how I think and how it influences who I am and what I perceive myself-basically, reality.

Others may be secure in their morals even though they don't call it religious.

That security, support, or however they name it, lets them be content. There isn't one way to be content. There is no "we vs. them." Diversity in thought doesn't separate people but accept and if possible experience the differences from their perspective. It's a beautiful thing to really experience the sacraments of Christ and still not believe in the Church. Like falling in love and then breaking up on good terms.

If we are promoting diversity, there are many steps to do so without imposing that others are limited while we are not. We are not the center of the universe. :)
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
@Bird123 Take your time. You don't have to comment on everything. I do get what you're saying. I just feel that even though we feel religion is limiting, not everyone in religion feels that way. As long as its healthy and it's their choice to stay within their faith, I don't see a problem objectively and morally speaking. It just conflicts with my morals. Nothing bad. Just different.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If people of religion are locked into a set of rules from their holy books in order to be Righteous, does it make them angry when others do not follow those rules? Do they see people who do not follow as evil or being the devil?
When people get away with that which God condemns, when they flout the rules you're taught are crucial to happiness, prosperity and harmony, and yet appear happy, prosperous and harmonious, it's exceedingly annoying and calls into question your whole system of morality.

Such people must be in league with the Devil, they must be exterminated -- think of the children!
Do they secretly desire their freedom from these rules???? Would they be brave enough to admit that???? Are they Trapped by what others think of them????
We hate them for their freedom!
 
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