• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?

Is the holy spirit a person?

In so many scriptures where Jesus is seen "at the right hand of God", can anyone provide a scripture that says the holy spirit is ever seen at his left hand?

If both the Father and son have personal names as well as titles, can anyone provide a personal name for the holy spirit?

Are the scriptures written to support the idea that the holy spirit is the third part of the triune godhead?

Is the holy spirit ever called "God"?

We see in the scriptures that there is "God the Father" but can anyone provide a reference to "God the Son"? or "God the Holy Spirit"?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Should I have made this a little easier?
Less questions perhaps?
looksmiley.gif
Or should I just wait until the time difference catches up?

I look forward to the trinitarians jumping on this opportunity to prove their case?
128fs318181.gif
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Should I have made this a little easier?
Less questions perhaps?
looksmiley.gif
Or should I just wait until the time difference catches up?

I look forward to the trinitarians jumping on this opportunity to prove their case?
128fs318181.gif

Dont you love when this happens? And I havent seen this topic explored on RF. :shrug:
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
It is often said that God is outside time and space.
So I have always seen the Holy Spirit as the Active element of God that is always with us. He is the one who guides, comforts and councils us through our thoughts. He is our connection to God.
I see neither God nor the Holy spirit as people nor necessarily having a names.

Although I am a member of the Anglican church, I tend to not to be strongly triuneistic.
But I do see the holy spirit as a direct extension of God.
I have no difficulty seeing Jesus, as in some way, a son of God and our teacher.
I am less sure of his part in a trinity.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Should I have made this a little easier?
Less questions perhaps?
looksmiley.gif
Or should I just wait until the time difference catches up?

I look forward to the trinitarians jumping on this opportunity to prove their case?
128fs318181.gif
Maybe under "Biblical Debates" you'll have better luck. But for me, I've questioned why if God is Spirit and is everywhere, why would God need another supposedly equal part that is also Spirit? And, if God has no physical body then how is Jesus "fully" God? Did Jesus have a physical body before he was born? If so, then did it dismantled itself and start over again inside of Mary? After the body died, was the resurrection body made of the same biological material? If so, how did it go through walls? If so, how did it rise into the sky and keep breathing?

Or, is it all mythology with the point being to get people to believe that God is watching, so do as He says. But since you can't do as He says, then believe on His son's sacrifice. If you do the sin debt you incurred all by your self and the sin debt you inherited from God's first humans is paid. And then, you can go live with God in the sky forever. In the meantime, while Jesus is hanging out in the sky somewhere at the right hand of His Father, then the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, will be with you. And, if you should wonder why God, himself, can't be with us, or why Jesus can't be with us, don't worry The Holy Spirit is fully God and fully Jesus. If you've seen the Spirit, you've seen the Father and Son. So love one another and go through all kinds of pain and suffering... knowing that you'll be rewarded by an invisible three-part God. You know, I can't see why people can't see this simple truth?

Oh, one more "truth". God the Father or Jesus, one of them created a spirit-being that turned bad... and they knew he was going to turn bad. So we have the air filled with God the Father, I guess Jesus and His physical body too, don't ask me how he can be everywhere at once, then we have the Holy Spirit, I suppose occupying the same space in the universe as God the Father and Jesus... and then the evil angel who pretty much can be everywhere too? Ok, may it's not so simple a truth.
 

Treasure Hunter

Well-Known Member
In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?

Is the holy spirit a person?

In so many scriptures where Jesus is seen "at the right hand of God", can anyone provide a scripture that says the holy spirit is ever seen at his left hand?

If both the Father and son have personal names as well as titles, can anyone provide a personal name for the holy spirit?

Are the scriptures written to support the idea that the holy spirit is the third part of the triune godhead?

Is the holy spirit ever called "God"?

We see in the scriptures that there is "God the Father" but can anyone provide a reference to "God the Son"? or "God the Holy Spirit"?
Defining the Holy Spirit is counterproductive. It's easy to define something in a way that allows us to already know and have it. This frees us from the burden of seeking it.

The real Holy Spirit is something we have to struggle and search for.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?

Is the holy spirit a person?

In so many scriptures where Jesus is seen "at the right hand of God", can anyone provide a scripture that says the holy spirit is ever seen at his left hand?

If both the Father and son have personal names as well as titles, can anyone provide a personal name for the holy spirit?

Are the scriptures written to support the idea that the holy spirit is the third part of the triune godhead?

Is the holy spirit ever called "God"?

We see in the scriptures that there is "God the Father" but can anyone provide a reference to "God the Son"? or "God the Holy Spirit"?
when I was younger, the concept of three as one, was confusing
as if the God might be a split personality trying to reconcile Himself unto Himself

I would suggest....the Holy Spirit is the list of character traits that holds the other two in guidelines
hence a reconciliation
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Defining the Holy Spirit is counterproductive. It's easy to define something in a way that allows us to already know and have it. This frees us from the burden of seeking it.
The real Holy Spirit is something we have to struggle and search for.

And where do we 'struggle and search' for God's holy spirit but through the pages of Scripture - Luke 11:13 B; Acts of the Apostles 17:11
As we search through Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25 we can understand that God's spirit is neuter "it" - Psalms 104:30
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
when I was younger, the concept of three as one, was confusing
as if the God might be a split personality trying to reconcile Himself unto Himself
I would suggest....the Holy Spirit is the list of character traits that holds the other two in guidelines
hence a reconciliation

' List of character traits ' ? or, God's powerful force that He uses - Psalms 104:30
God's holy spirit is neuter "it" - Numbers 11:17; Numbers 11:25
In the King James translation at Romans 8:16 and Romans 8:26 God's spirit is also neuter as "itself" as it is neuter from the Greek Scriptures.
Corrupted translators try to change ' it to him ' even though the ancient manuscripts use the neuter.
 

idea

Question Everything
when I was younger, the concept of three as one, was confusing
as if the God might be a split personality trying to reconcile Himself unto Himself

I would suggest....the Holy Spirit is the list of character traits that holds the other two in guidelines
hence a reconciliation

Not all Christians subscribe to the trinity idea... That idea came from the Nicaea council...

God is our Heavenly Father - the Father of our spirits
Jesus is a different being - he is the son of God, our older brother.

both God and Jesus have physical bodies similar to our own (we are made in their image etc.) The Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit does not have a physical body - this allows the Spirit to talk with our own spirit. When we feel prompted to do something good, or feel uneasy / warned of something that is wrong →this is the Spirit talking with us.

It is the still small voice that answers prayers, and carries messages between us and God. To feel the Spirit you have to be still, be willing to listen and follow the promptings you get, and recognize the different ways in which spiritual communication happens - not always through words, most often through feelings.

1 Kings 19:
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lordwas not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
 
Last edited:

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Not all Christians subscribe to the trinity idea... That idea came from the Nicaea council...

God is our Heavenly Father - the Father of our spirits
Jesus is a different being - he is the son of God, our older brother.

both God and Jesus have physical bodies similar to our own (we are made in their image etc.) The Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit does not have a physical body - this allows the Spirit to talk with our own spirit. When we feel prompted to do something good, or feel uneasy / warned of something that is wrong →this is the Spirit talking with us.

It is the still small voice that answers prayers, and carries messages between us and God. To feel the Spirit you have to be still, be willing to listen and follow the promptings you get, and recognize the different ways in which spiritual communication happens - not always through words, most often through feelings.

1 Kings 19:
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lordwas not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
well I don't see it quite that way.

it is written....God is Spirit
and Jesus would indeed be....Elder Brother

but I do not believe God has a physical body
He is spirit
the sons of God are spirit

Jesus may well have walked like any other man......but then again
He walked on water
and He took His body upward with Him when He left
and we all know what is above our heads
Man does not think of heaven as some kingdom in the clouds
I don't either

Whatever did Jesus do with His body?......we might never know
and I don't think it matters

when we meet God and heaven.....it will be in spirit
mind to mind.....heart to heart
no words
 

idea

Question Everything
well I don't see it quite that way.

it is written....God is Spirit
and Jesus would indeed be....Elder Brother

but I do not believe God has a physical body
He is spirit
the sons of God are spirit

Jesus may well have walked like any other man......but then again
He walked on water
and He took His body upward with Him when He left
and we all know what is above our heads
Man does not think of heaven as some kingdom in the clouds
I don't either

Whatever did Jesus do with His body?......we might never know
and I don't think it matters

when we meet God and heaven.....it will be in spirit
mind to mind.....heart to heart
no words

This might be a little off topic, but...

Jesus had a body when he was resurrected - he ate with them
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

God also has a body - there are many scriptures which talk about his hands, face, feet, back parts - that Jesus looks like his dad, that our bodies are fashioned like God's body etc. etc.
God created man, in the likeness of God made he him: Gen. 5:1 , Gen. 9:6 .
Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing: Gen. 18:33 → God comes and goes
I have seen God face to face: Gen. 32:30 .
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet: Ex. 24:10 .
written with the finger of God: Ex. 31:18 . ( Deut. 9:10 . )
Lord spake unto Moses face to face: Ex. 33:11 .
thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen: Ex. 33:23 .
With him will I speak mouth to mouth: Num. 12:8 .
every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God: Matt. 4:4 .
he that hath seen me hath seen the Father: John 14:9 (for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have: Luke 24:39 .)
the Son of man standing on the right hand of God: Acts 7:56 .
predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: Rom. 8:29 .
Christ, who is the image of God: 2 Cor. 4:4 .
Who, being in the form of God: Philip. 2:6 .
our vile body … fashioned like unto his glorious body: Philip. 3:21 .
the express image of his person: Heb. 1:3 .
men, which are made after the similitude of God: James 3:9 .
when he shall appear, we shall be like him: 1 Jn. 3:2 .
they shall see his face: Rev. 22:4 .

The point of the resurrection is to gain a perfect body → in heaven, we will have physical bodies.

Why do you think evil spirits are so set on possessing everything from pigs to people? It's because they don't have a physical body → not having a physical body is their curse.

Our current bodies are imperfect and frustrating at times, but imagine the potential of a perfect body - without a body you could not feel the wind on your face, give someone a hug, enjoy a good piece of chocolate etc. etc. bodies are wonderful things!


*** Back on topic***
It is a huge sacrifice that the Holy Spirit has given up their body for a time (I do not believe eternally) so that they can communicate directly with our spirit. This is the unique position of the Holy Spirit - they are the messenger, or conduit through which we can communicate with God and receive promptings from God.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
In so many threads discussing the trinity, one of the members seems to be a little overlooked, so I thought it might be fruitful to discuss the holy spirit as "God".

Who or what is God's holy Spirit?
I think the Holy Spirit is Jesus.
For more details and Scriptures see my post here.
This is what I think Jesus was telling His disciples in "proverbs" (John 16:25).
That He was not just the body and mind, but He was the Holy Spirit of the Father also.
Ask yourself, how can Jesus have been IN the Father and the Father IN Jesus simultaneously as He said in John 14:11?
A possible way is if the Holy Spirit of the Father that dwelt in His body (aka temple) was radiating outside of His body as well?
This definitely seems possible when you consider the lady who was healed by touching the hem of His garment:

Luke 8:43-48 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, 44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched. 45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me? 46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that VIRTUE is gone out of me. 47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately. 48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

VIRTUE = DUNAMIS which has also been translated as POWER, MIGHT, STRENGTH & MIRACLES.

I also just noticed this verse which seems to say exactly what I'm proposing:

Luke 6:19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went VIRTUE (Dunamis) out of him, and healed them all.

This was not what I had intended to write but it will do for now.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
It is often said that God is outside time and space.
So I have always seen the Holy Spirit as the Active element of God that is always with us. He is the one who guides, comforts and councils us through our thoughts. He is our connection to God.
I see neither God nor the Holy spirit as people nor necessarily having a names.

Although I am a member of the Anglican church, I tend to not to be strongly triuneistic.
But I do see the holy spirit as a direct extension of God.
I have no difficulty seeing Jesus, as in some way, a son of God and our teacher.
I am less sure of his part in a trinity.

As one raised in the Anglican Church I agree with what you say here. I never could see the trinity in the Bible. At best there was duality, but the third 'person' was invariably MIA.
297.gif
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Maybe under "Biblical Debates" you'll have better luck. But for me, I've questioned why if God is Spirit and is everywhere, why would God need another supposedly equal part that is also Spirit? And, if God has no physical body then how is Jesus "fully" God? Did Jesus have a physical body before he was born? If so, then did it dismantled itself and start over again inside of Mary? After the body died, was the resurrection body made of the same biological material? If so, how did it go through walls? If so, how did it rise into the sky and keep breathing?

You raise some great questions
128fs318181.gif
...ones I asked myself before I really studied the Bible apart from Christendom's teachings. The church could never answer those questions satisfactorily. I went searching for answers that made sense and were from God's word.

I came to see that there is a spiritual being who is the Creator of everything. He has immense power than emanates from him to accomplish his will. That power is God's holy spirit. It is the exercise or implementation of God's power, but it is not a person, nor is it God. It itself empowers others....even sinful humans.

God does not have a physical body, but it seems as if he has a spiritual body that is immaterial. No one has ever seen him apart from spirit beings. (John 5:37) No one can. (Col 1:15)

Before coming to be born as a human, Jesus too possessed a spirit body. The person of God's firstborn son was somehow transferred into the womb of a Jewish maiden and brought to birth just like any other human.....but this person had lived before, in another realm, for eons of time. He was unique, but he was fully human...and completely mortal.
Since the Bible tells us that God is immortal, there is no way that Jesus could be both "fully God and fully man". Immortals cannot die, and mortals cannot kill God.
17.gif


Spirit beings in the Bible at times manifested themselves in material bodies of flesh. They ate and drank and spoke with God's human servants, then when their mission was accomplished, they simply dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm....a realm no human can fully explain since none of us have ever been there. The body that Jesus was raised in was spiritual, he too had the power to materialize and dematerialize at will, hence his ability to appear to his disciples and disappear before their eyes.
Jesus could not just materialize a human body to accomplish his role as redeemer because he had to be a son of Adam to pay the ransom price demanded under the law. (1 Cor 15:45)

Or, is it all mythology with the point being to get people to believe that God is watching, so do as He says. But since you can't do as He says, then believe on His son's sacrifice. If you do the sin debt you incurred all by your self and the sin debt you inherited from God's first humans is paid. And then, you can go live with God in the sky forever. In the meantime, while Jesus is hanging out in the sky somewhere at the right hand of His Father, then the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, will be with you. And, if you should wonder why God, himself, can't be with us, or why Jesus can't be with us, don't worry The Holy Spirit is fully God and fully Jesus. If you've seen the Spirit, you've seen the Father and Son. So love one another and go through all kinds of pain and suffering... knowing that you'll be rewarded by an invisible three-part God. You know, I can't see why people can't see this simple truth?

Yep, a somewhat concise description of what most in Christendom believe. It has snatches of truth but is inaccurate in its overall presentation however.

To understand why Jesus was sent to die, you must first understand the concept of atonement or redemption. In the Law of Moses, a person could be sold into slavery to cover a debt. A relative or other person could redeem that person and free them from slavery if they paid his debt in full. Atonement is literally "at-one-ment", meaning that something of an equivalent value was handed over. In the case of Jesus, Adam lost perfect sinless life for all his children, so in order to redeem them, God sent one whose life was the equivalent of what Adam lost. A sinless life was offered for a sinless life. Since all of Adam's children now had the defect of sin, there was no one among them to pay the price and free them from slavery to sin and death. Hence a sinless life had to come from outside the now defective human race.

In the Bible Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he atones for what Adam forfeited for his children. Adam himself paid for his sin with his own life, but Jesus rescued his children by voluntarily offering his own life for them. It was not their fault and God made the way to rectify the situation whilst keeping his perfect law.

Oh, one more "truth". God the Father or Jesus, one of them created a spirit-being that turned bad... and they knew he was going to turn bad. So we have the air filled with God the Father, I guess Jesus and His physical body too, don't ask me how he can be everywhere at once, then we have the Holy Spirit, I suppose occupying the same space in the universe as God the Father and Jesus... and then the evil angel who pretty much can be everywhere too? Ok, may it's not so simple a truth.

LOL...nicely stated...you hit the dilemma right on the head.

The only thing I will pick out of that is that God knew that a bad spirit would corrupt his creation. I believe that God can know whatever he wants, but that when he created free willed creatures, he did not want micro-manage their actions. What he did was state penalties for certain actions and warn them not to transgress.
We are told in the scriptures that we will "reap what we have sown"....even if we initially didn't intend to do the wrong thing. If you plant carrots and then change your mind, beets won't come up. Carrots is what you will have to eat. Free will is ours to exercise, even in a bad way. It tells God who we are and when he exercises his power in the future to bring all things back to square one, he will have chosen the citizens of his kingdom without having to force them to do anything. They will all be obedient to their Father out of love for him and appreciation for his wisdom in separating humans for life or death. There is no heaven or hell, there is just the natural result of the exercise of God's perfect justice.

That puts the onus right back onto our shoulders. We are the captain of our own ship...we drive it, and no one else, so we can't shift the blame to others or even the devil when we give in to sin. No one can force us to do anything against our will....not even our Creator. And the thing is...he doesn't want to. He wants obedience to come from the heart as we trust him to know what he's doing and to keep us informed about his intentions towards this earth and all who inhabit it.

The future is looking bleak from a human standpoint but from the Christian view, everything is right on schedule. The "last days" will come to their end, mankind will be judged as either worthy or unworthy of everlasting life, right here on planet Earth, and we can all get on with what God originally intended for this vast universe....the sky is literally the limit.
loveshower.gif
 
Last edited:

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Not all Christians subscribe to the trinity idea... That idea came from the Nicaea council...

Yep...agree with that.
128fs318181.gif


God is our Heavenly Father - the Father of our spirits
Jesus is a different being - he is the son of God, our older brother.

Jesus is definitely the "brother" of the chosen ones who will rule with him in his kingdom, (Revelation 20:6; Matthew 25:40) but he is King to the subjects of that kingdom. He is also their High Priest. (Hebrews 3:1)

both God and Jesus have physical bodies similar to our own (we are made in their image etc.)

Where does this idea come from? Spirit being have no visible form.
Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". Can Jesus be an image of an invisible God and still be a material being of flesh and blood? Being made in God's image means that we possess his moral attributes...something missing in the animal kingdom.
The body that Jesus was raised in, is not the body that was sacrificed. A sacrifice was destroyed when it was offered up to God, just as Jesus human body was disposed of by his Father. (Acts of the Apostles 2:31)

The Holy Ghost, or Holy Spirit does not have a physical body - this allows the Spirit to talk with our own spirit. When we feel prompted to do something good, or feel uneasy / warned of something that is wrong →this is the Spirit talking with us.

l agree with this up to a point. God's spirit can direct us in many ways but there is no "Holy Ghost"....there is God's holy spirit and it is not a person.
As post #8 brings out...the spirit is spoken of as an "it" in Numbers 11:25. One could never refer to part of God as an "it".

It is the still small voice that answers prayers, and carries messages between us and God.

It is the power of God's will in action. But our prayers can only go to God through Jesus Christ. (John 14:13-14)

To feel the Spirit you have to be still, be willing to listen and follow the promptings you get, and recognize the different ways in which spiritual communication happens - not always through words, most often through feelings.

I have to disagree here again. "Feelings" are not a reliable guide at all. So many have "felt" the holy spirit or thought that they did, but that is not the way the holy spirit operated in the first century...it was by the results of actions taken by the disciples that determined whether it was from God or not. Holy spirit did not produce failures ever. So many who claim the gifts of the spirit today are devoid of positive results and when there are, they can be attributed to the placebo effect. God does not work that way. The results of the operation of God's spirit were always positive. No disappointments.
220.gif


1 Kings 19:
11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Yes Elijah's experience was a powerful demonstration of the immense power of God. It showed him that there was no power in existence stronger than his God, and that he did not have to fear the anger of a wicked queen. God would deal with her in his own way and time.
 

JesusBeliever

Active Member
You raise some great questions
128fs318181.gif
...ones I asked myself before I really studied the Bible apart from Christendom's teachings. The church could never answer those questions satisfactorily. I went searching for answers that made sense and were from God's word.

I came to see that there is a spiritual being who is the Creator of everything. He has immense power than emanates from him to accomplish his will. That power is God's holy spirit. It is the exercise or implementation of God's power, but it is not a person, nor is it God. It itself empowers others....even sinful humans.

God does not have a physical body, but it seems as if he has a spiritual body that is immaterial. No one has ever seen him apart from spirit beings. (John 5:37) No one can. (Col 1:15)

Before coming to be born as a human, Jesus too possessed a spirit body. The person of God's firstborn son was somehow transferred into the womb of a Jewish maiden and brought to birth just like any other human.....but this person had lived before, in another realm, for eons of time. He was unique, but he was fully human...and completely mortal.
Since the Bible tells us that God is immortal, there is no way that Jesus could be both "fully God and fully man". Immortals cannot die, and mortals cannot kill God.
17.gif


Spirit beings in the Bible at times manifested themselves in material bodies of flesh. They ate and drank and spoke with God's human servants, then when their mission was accomplished, they simply dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm....a realm no human can fully explain since none of us have ever been there. The body that Jesus was raised in was spiritual, he too had the power to materialize and dematerialize at will, hence his ability to appear to his disciples and disappear before their eyes.
Jesus could not just materialize a human body to accomplish his role as redeemer because he had to be a son of Adam to pay the ransom price demanded under the law. (1 Cor 15:45)



Yep, a somewhat concise description of what most in Christendom believe. It has snatches of truth but is inaccurate in its overall presentation however.

To understand why Jesus was sent to die, you must first understand the concept of atonement or redemption. In the Law of Moses, a person could be sold into slavery to cover a debt. A relative or other person could redeem that person and free them from slavery if they paid his debt in full. Atonement is literally "at-one-ment", meaning that something of an equivalent value was handed over. In the case of Jesus, Adam lost perfect sinless life for all his children, so in order to redeem them, God sent one whose life was the equivalent of what Adam lost. A sinless life was offered for a sinless life. Since all of Adam's children now had the defect of sin, there was no one among them to pay the price and free them from slavery to sin and death. Hence a sinless life had to come from outside the now defective human race.

In the Bible Jesus is called "the last Adam" because he atones for what Adam forfeited for his children. Adam himself paid for his sin with his own life, but Jesus rescued his children by voluntarily offering his own life for them. It was not their fault and God made the way to rectify the situation whilst keeping his perfect law.



LOL...nicely stated...you hit the dilemma right on the head.

The only thing I will pick out of that is that God knew that a bad spirit would corrupt his creation. I believe that God can know whatever he wants, but that when he created free willed creatures, he did not want micro-manage their actions. What he did was state penalties for certain actions and warn them not to transgress.
We are told in the scriptures that we will "reap what we have sown"....even if we initially didn't intend to do the wrong thing. If you plant carrots and then change your mind, beets won't come up. Carrots is what you will have to eat. Free will is ours to exercise, even in a bad way. It tells God who we are and when he exercises his power in the future to bring all things back to square one, he will have chosen the citizens of his kingdom without having to force them to do anything. They will all be obedient to their Father out of love for him and appreciation for his wisdom in separating humans for life or death. There is no heaven or hell, there is just the natural result of the exercise of God's perfect justice.

That puts the onus right back onto our shoulders. We are the captain of our own ship...we drive it, and no one else, so we can't shift the blame to others or even the devil when we give in to sin. No one can force us to do anything against our will....not even our Creator. And the thing is...he doesn't want to. He wants obedience to come from the heart as we trust him to know what he's doing and to keep us informed about his intentions towards this earth and all who inhabit it.

The future is looking bleak from a human standpoint but from the Christian view, everything is right on schedule. The "last days" will come to their end, mankind will be judged as either worthy or unworthy of everlasting life, right here on planet Earth, and we can all get on with what God originally intended for this vast universe....the sky is literally the limit.
loveshower.gif
Hi there Deeje,
I really got a lot from your post, thanks for sharing! :)
 

idea

Question Everything
Jesus is definitely the "brother" of the chosen ones who will rule with him in his kingdom, (Revelation 20:6; Matthew 25:40) but he is King to the subjects of that kingdom. He is also their High Priest. (Hebrews 3:1)

Yes, Jesus fulfills many different roles - the most important of which is being the Savior of the world and the Son of God.

Where does this idea come from? Spirit being have no visible form.
Colossians 1:15 calls Jesus "the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation". Can Jesus be an image of an invisible God and still be a material being of flesh and blood? Being made in God's image means that we possess his moral attributes...something missing in the animal kingdom.
The body that Jesus was raised in, is not the body that was sacrificed. A sacrifice was destroyed when it was offered up to God, just as Jesus human body was disposed of by his Father. (Acts of the Apostles 2:31)

Many accounts are given (and I quoted a few of them earlier) of people conversing, and seeing the physical God - seeing his finger, his feet, etc. You believe that people are moral? The natural man is an enemy of God - we do not have God's perfect character or morals, we do have His physical image - hands/feet etc. Jesus' human body was not disposed of - "spirit hath not flesh as ye see me have", his perfect body was one of the glories of his resurrection.

God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ are not some imaginary, non-material / non-tangible entities. They are real, physical beings that you can talk with, walk with etc.

I have to disagree here again. "Feelings" are not a reliable guide at all.

Love is a feeling. The most important things to rely on are feelings... Are you afraid of your feelings?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
As one raised in the Anglican Church I agree with what you say here. I never could see the trinity in the Bible. At best there was duality, but the third 'person' was invariably MIA.
297.gif
Hey there Deeje, Some quotes about the "Spirit" are from the Jewish side of the Bible. Why didn't Jews ever think of the "Spirit" as an equal but separate part of a Godhead? Plus, they never thought of the Messiah as "God" either. And because of the various meetings held by early Christians, even they had to hammer out a few things about who and what was going on. After deciding that God must be a Trinity, that was the only thing that made sense, they had to figure out what to do about Mary? Since she was the mother of Jesus, and since Jesus is God, then she must be the Mother of God. But no way could she be tainted by "original sin" so maybe, she was "immaculately" conceived? Must be, there is no other way to explain it.

Because of the road the early Church did go down, I have to question all those decisions they made, including making God a trinity. Even a duality doesn't work for me, unless you make it a good vs. evil duality. But there is a trinity I like... the one Hindu's have... Brahma at the top, with Vishnu and Shiva under him and they delegate things out to all the lessor gods. But I don't think they have a separate "Spirit of Brahma" or a "Son of Brahma" in their mix of gods do they? And yet, they are called "poly-theistic" and Christians aren't? Or maybe they are, I suppose some Jews might think the Trinity is a little toward the poly-theistic side.

Thanks Deeje for you answers in your other posts and for not ducking the tough questions. Hopefully you'll get some more people responding.
 
Top