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Is Jesus God?

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Why do you think a sinless Jesus was being deceptive at all? He instantly appeared to them in a room from thin air (Joh 20:19,26). A clear indication of his spirit form. He also appeared to them in the form of flesh and bone. The logical conclusion is he had the power to transform himself from spirit to flesh and bone and vice versa.
Well, I believe He was divine, and that as such, He could appear anywhere at will. Why go back and forth if He could do that?
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Well, I believe He was divine, and that as such, He could appear anywhere at will. Why go back and forth if He could do that?

You answered your own question. He could appear anywhere and go back and forth between the two states at will because He was divine.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You answered your own question. He could appear anywhere and go back and forth between the two states at will because He was divine.
Yeah, but I don't think He was ever without His body of flesh and bones once He was resurrected. He could just do things we are unable to explain a body with flesh and bones could do. Maybe we're sort of saying the same thing. I don't know.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but I don't think He was ever without His body of flesh and bones once He was resurrected. He could just do things we are unable to explain a body with flesh and bones could do. Maybe we're sort of saying the same thing. I don't know.

The resurrected Christ is also the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17). This explains why He could do things flesh and bones cannot, like dwell in each Christian simultaneously (Gal 2:20). I believe this one scripture refutes the trinity doctrine, as the resurrected Christ and the hs are one and the same, not two separate entities.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Christ is also currently a life-giving spirit
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
The resurrected Christ is also the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17). This explains why He could do things flesh and bones cannot, like dwell in each Christian simultaneously (Gal 2:20). I believe this one scripture refutes the trinity doctrine, as the resurrected Christ and the hs are one and the same, not two separate entities.

The resurrected Christ is also the holy spirit (2 Co 3:17).

No he's not. It Jesus "thee Holy Spirit"? No. Is Jesus a spirit that is Holy Spirit. That would be different. The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Can the Holy Spirit work through people? Of course, God's Spirit can work through anyone, apostles, Jesus and even angels.

"Spirit" can also be written differently, like "soul" can too. Spirit can be written as "mind" or a way of thinking.. Look at 2 Cor 3v17
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"

That verse is not saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The Lord is "that" spirit. Well, what spirit? Re-read it again. Doesnt match up with your context does it....

This explains why He could do things flesh and bones cannot, like dwell in each Christian simultaneously (Gal 2:20).

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Again, look at the context. What kind of mind do we have? Do we have the mind of Christ? Do we think of heavenly things? Christ lives in me doesnt actually mean Jesus is living in my body. We know that Jesus is in heaven and not coming back to earth unto the Father sends him.

I believe this one scripture refutes the trinity doctrine,
I think any bible doctrine refutes the trinity doctrine. I agree.

as the resurrected Christ and the hs are one and the same, not two separate entities.
Well the HS is not a person, it's the power of God. It is not Jesus, but the HS can work in Jesus or the power of God our Creator can work in Jesus, which we see all through scripture.
 

Notaclue

Member
No he's not. It Jesus "thee Holy Spirit"? No. Is Jesus a spirit that is Holy Spirit. That would be different. The Holy Spirit is the power of God. Can the Holy Spirit work through people? Of course, God's Spirit can work through anyone, apostles, Jesus and even angels.

"Spirit" can also be written differently, like "soul" can too. Spirit can be written as "mind" or a way of thinking.. Look at 2 Cor 3v17
"Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"

That verse is not saying that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. The Lord is "that" spirit. Well, what spirit? Re-read it again. Doesnt match up with your context does it....



"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Again, look at the context. What kind of mind do we have? Do we have the mind of Christ? Do we think of heavenly things? Christ lives in me doesnt actually mean Jesus is living in my body. We know that Jesus is in heaven and not coming back to earth unto the Father sends him.


I think any bible doctrine refutes the trinity doctrine. I agree.


Well the HS is not a person, it's the power of God. It is not Jesus, but the HS can work in Jesus or the power of God our Creator can work in Jesus, which we see all through scripture.



32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

both Lord and Christ.


1Cor.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Peace.




 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

both Lord and Christ.


1Cor.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Peace.




32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
both Lord and Christ.

Great verses, thank you. Just goes to show you that Jesus did recieve the Holy Spirit to do the things that he did throughout his life. The apostles recieved the Holy Spirit too, along with other people.

1Cor.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So what are you saying? What does Spirit in these verses say to you? Just curious.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
That verse is not saying that Jesus is the [to] Holy Spirit. The Lord is [ho] "that" spirit. Well, what spirit? Re-read it again. Doesnt match up with your context does it....

1. It most certainly does match the context and grammar. The two Greek definite articles "to" and "ho" are both in the nominative case. The nominative is used to identify "what" the subject is. The passage very clearly reads--the (ho-nominative) Lord is the (to-nominative) spirit. Indicating Jesus is the holy spirit. As opposed to the article "that" which is used to point to someone other than the subject. For example:

Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that (to-accusative)of Abel.​

The subject here is Jesus. The term "that" is in the accusative pointing to Abel, not Jesus. In an attempt to make the hs and Christ two separate persons, the KJV translators inserted the English article "that" in 2 Co 3:17. Both articles should have been translated as "the". The vast majority of translations have the grammatically correct article "the" in both appearances of the definite article in vs 17, except the KJV and few others.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Again, look at the context. What kind of mind do we have? Do we have the mind of Christ? Do we think of heavenly things? Christ lives in me doesnt actually mean Jesus is living in my body. We know that Jesus is in heaven and not coming back to earth unto the Father sends him.

2. The holy spirit is distributable. A portion of it can be given or live inside many individuals. Being that the scriptures clearly state Christ is the hs, we can safely conclude He has supernaturally distributed a portion of Himself to each Christian.

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Well the HS is not a person, it's the power of God. It is not Jesus, but the HS can work in Jesus or the power of God our Creator can work in Jesus, which we see all through scripture.

3. The scriptures above do not say the spirit "in" Christ, as you propose. It plainly states the spirit "of" Christ.The Holy Spirit is the resurrected Christ. The are one in the same. It is not a separate entity. Thus making two not three beings in the Godhead.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

both Lord and Christ.


1Cor.12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Peace.

Great verses, thank you. Just goes to show you that Jesus did recieve the Holy Spirit to do the things that he did throughout his life. The apostles recieved the Holy Spirit too, along with other people.

Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Read the verses carefully. The passages reflect the glorified Jesus receiving the promise of the hs from the Father. What promise of the hs did He receive? The promise that He will be the hs (2 Co 3:17) and would be distributed to all of his witnesses (Gal 4:6; Rom 8:9)!

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Christ is the life giving holy spirit.
 
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Notaclue

Member
Great verses, thank you. Just goes to show you that Jesus did recieve the Holy Spirit to do the things that he did throughout his life. The apostles recieved the Holy Spirit too, along with other people.



So what are you saying? What does Spirit in these verses say to you? Just curious.


2Cor.1:20. For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. 21Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God 22Who also hath sealed us, and given the pledge of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph.1:10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of (the)promise,14Which is the earnest(pledge) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


When we are on earth we have the (Spirit) as a guarantee of our future inheritance, which is the Tree of Life(Eternal Life).



2Cor.11:2. For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

Eph.5:25. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by(through) the word, 27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Eph.5:30. For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

When you receive the Holy Spirit you are sealed. Which is the guarantee of your future inheritance(Eternal Life).


Peace.








 

Notaclue

Member
Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

Read the verses carefully. The passages reflect the glorified Jesus receiving the promise of the hs from the Father. What promise of the hs did He receive? The promise that He will be the hs (2 Co 3:17) and would be distributed to all of his witnesses (Gal 4:6; Rom 8:9)!

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING BEING." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Christ is the life giving holy spirit.


Jn.17:1. When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you – 2 just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. 3. Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. 4 I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev.22:1. Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

glorify thou me with thine own self

1Jn.1:5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

God is Light.

They will need no light of lamp(Lamb).


Jn.17:5 glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created.


2Cor.5:18. Now all things are of(the) God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.


Peace.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Jn.17:1. When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you – 2 just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. 3. Now this is eternal life – that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. 4 I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

22And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. 23And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev.22:1. Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

glorify thou me with thine own self

1Jn.1:5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

God is Light.

They will need no light of lamp(Lamb).


Jn.17:5 glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Gen.1:1 In the beginning God created.


2Cor.5:18. Now all things are of(the) God, the One having reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation.


Peace.

Posting verses without your interpretation is like attempting to solve a rubiks cube.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
1. I don't see where I attempted to show eternal and everlasting were interchangeable using synonyms. You were the one illogically proposing they were equivalent, but not similar. I went on to demonstrate in point 1 how equivalent is a synonym of similar source. You get your facts confused more often than not.

I think you get your facts confused more often than not. I did not state they were equivalent but not similar, I stated they were similar but not equivalent, and that the two are not the same. I even gave an example:

Look, I have a $20.00 bill that I printed in my garage. Is it similar to other $20.00 bills?

Yes.

Is it equivalent?

No.​

That was a clear example. They are similar because they look the same, but they are not equivalent because they don’t have the same value. But what was your response?:

1. And I'm trying to convey the fact you are utilizing synonyms in an attempt to define two different, abstract English terms. Attempting to compare a quantifiable, physical object (money) with an abstract, qualitative concept (everlasting/eternal life) is apples to oranges.

The problem of course is that I never attempted to compare the "abstract with the physical". What I was doing was comparing "similar to equivalent" which is NOT a comparison between the physical and abstract.

Case in point--- discussing Rev 3:14 on another thread, in a desperate attempt to prove me wrong, you erroneously quoted Daniel Wallace's objective genitive definition, when we were discussing the subjective genitive. see point 8 here

A few comments on this “desperate attempt” here:

1. We were discussing subjective and objective genitives, and all the quote from Wallace means is that I am seeing this verse in the objective. If we were both looking at Rev. 3:4 solely in the subjective we wouldn’t have much of a disagreement…but I don’t look at it that way.

2. I’m really not sure what this other thread, on which we agreed to disagree, has to do with this thread. Pointing out your errors on other threads does not make my arguments on this thread more correct or vice versa. That would be a logical fallacy, since we could both be wrong.

3. Even if I was wrong (which given the context I consider unlikely) you would be essentially asking readers to engage in an inductive fallacy called a hasty generalization. In other words: “If the weatherman was wrong about today, he must be wrong about tomorrow as well”.

4. If you really want to show where I was wrong and you were right, this is the post where it happened:

james2ko said:
Jehovah and Jesus are not pronouns. They are nouns.
oeste" said:
LOL! Agreed!! That's I get for posting after 1 am. I'm visualizing my elementary school teacher, Mrs. Murphy, sending me to the blackboard to diagram another ?!::!* sentence - a traumatic exercise no child should ever be forced into.
See? There it is, nice and clear, and something we can both agree on.

I dug up post 1757 to prove how you have a knack for creating false arguments. I don't have time to dig for more posts.
I don't see where you have "proved" I have a knack for making false arguments. I think the only thing you've proved is that you disagree with them, and the only "knack" I've seen is a tendency to rebut positions I've never held.

3. No. Actually one scriptural example should be suffice.

URAVIPTOME already gave one, and I don't really have the time to search for her post.

No, not "based on some philosophical theory" but on a standard English dictionary, just like I stated numerous times before. "Eternal" and "Everlasting" are English words, not Greek, so English definitions will apply. Neither word is redefined by the Greek. The translator's job is to find an applicable word in the target language, based on the context and usage in the source. That's it. The translator doesn't redefine English when he translates. . If the English word or words had multiple definitions before the translation, they will still have multiple definitions after.

4. Imposing theoretical, standard English definitions on a Greek word will eventually lead to doctrinal confusion. That is precisely what you are doing.

My whole argument has been that we use standard English definition on English words, not Greek words. I’m also insistent regarding the reverse…that we impose Greek definitions on Greek words, and not English.

There are certain words that we “borrow” from other languages, like “gumbo” (Bantu), “safari” (Swahili), “a la carte” (French), and “delicatessen” (German) where the source language gets carried into the target language, Unfortunately “eternal” and “everlasting” are English words not borrowed from ancient Greek.

If a source and target language have a singular etymology for a word, that's great! But if the source word has one word that can be defined variably in the target, that does not mean the source language gets to redefine the target. While there is certainly inspired scripture, there is no "inspired language" that takes precedence over other languages, which appears to be what you're arguing for here.

5. Neither does it mean that we redefine the source (Greek or Hebrew) language's definition by creating a doctrinal position based on the target (English) language's definition, which is what you are doing.

You're arguing against a position I haven't taken; against an assertion I've never made. I have never suggested we redefine Greek or Hebrew through English. However you've certainly taken the converse...that we redefine English according to Greek.

6. We need to define words in their source language's context before assigning a target language definition. If an accurate target definition cannot be found, I believe it should be left untranslated. This will encourage more diligent study. But the majority of the time, the closest target language term is inserted, which can and has led to doctrinal confusion. Case in point--there are three different Greek terms translated "hell" (tartaroo, hades, gehenna) even though the three Greek terms have totally different meanings.

Wow! We've reached agreement on something! Yes, James2ko, we can agree on stuff. Not often perhaps, but it’s possible. :)

7. Sorry but I don't have the time to dig and find all of your posts. Nevertheless, it really doesn't matter which biblical source language you choose, neither one of these two English terms correctly define the source language definition from which they were translated.

It wouldn't matter if the English words have an equivalent word in modern, Kione, or Classical Greek. English words are first and foremost defined in English. Neither "eternal" or "everlasting" are Greek words.

8. But those English words are used to translate a Greek term that is missing the "forever in the past" connotation . That connotation was contrived and assigned to the English terms by philosophers and scholars.

Now you’re confusing me. The English word “Eternal” certainly has the connotation of “forever in the past” while “everlasting” does not. I graphically displayed this in post 1836.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
9. You posted a theologian/philosopher's definition of eternal and everlasting. And now you are denying it?

Deny? Where did I say I was denying my own post??? I’m stating the theologian/philosopher did not give a philosophical but theological definition.

10. The English definition of everlasting and eternal do not correctly reflect the Greek or Hebrew term's definition. Hence the English terms are theoretical representations of the Greek term.

English words represent English definitions, not Greek, Hebrew or any other language definition (unless it’s a borrowed word). Hence, English words are doing exactly what they were designed to do.

11. The problem here is the two English words (everlasting, eternal) do not correctly reflect the Greek term's definition. Yet you insist the two words are distinctly accurate representations of the Greek term.
No...I've never insisted that eternal and everlasting are accurate representations of a Greek term. That's something a translator or translation committee might do, not me.

It's late and I can hardly keep my eyes open. I'm enjoying our discussion and will do my best to comment tomorrow.
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Deny? Where did I say I was denying my own post??? I’m stating the theologian/philosopher did not give a philosophical but theological definition.



English words represent English definitions, not Greek, Hebrew or any other language definition (unless it’s a borrowed word). Hence, English words are doing exactly what they were designed to do.


No...I've never insisted that eternal and everlasting are accurate representations of a Greek term. That's something a translator or translation committee might do, not me.

It's late and I can hardly keep my eyes open. I'm enjoying our discussion and will do my best to comment tomorrow.

I see we are on an unproductive merry go round basically repeating our points. I'll have mercy and let you off the hook this one time :). Enjoy your day...
 

Yoshua

Well-Known Member
1. Your answer implicates the Christian religion as the true religion. But it does not address my question.--Why are there so many different Christian denominations claiming the full truth while utilizing the same Bible---word of God---yet having different doctrines?
Hi James,

This is because of people are led with deception in regard with Christianity. In the Bible, Jesus warned us that there are many who will claim He is Jesus plus the false teachers. They may have the same Bible but preaching false Jesus. Many will hear the word of God but not all of them will become fruitful, and continue their walk in the truth of the gospel. Many are led into cult teachings and false gospel.
2. Do you agree or disagree with Mr. Wallace's interpretation of Php 2:5-6 or not?
Yeah. I accepted his interpretation. Now, if you are forcing me to tell that my interpretation is incorrect, then I will ask you to summarize to me where am I incorrect in compare with your interpretation.

Thanks
 

james2ko

Well-Known Member
Hi James, This is because of people are led with deception in regard with Christianity. In the Bible, Jesus warned us that there are many who will claim He is Jesus plus the false teachers. They may have the same Bible but preaching false Jesus. Many will hear the word of God but not all of them will become fruitful, and continue their walk in the truth of the gospel. Many are led into cult teachings and false gospel.

You said, "The basis is still the truth that lies inside the word of God—the Bible." Which leads me back to the original question which you continue to dodge, which one of the thousands of denominations within the Christian religion has the full truth?

Yeah. I accepted his interpretation. Now, if you are forcing me to tell that my interpretation is incorrect, then I will ask you to summarize to me where am I incorrect in compare with your interpretation.

Good. So you admit you were wrong. Nothing wrong with that. My original interpretation matched Mr. Wallace's and Mr. Martin's, your original interpretation did not. You posted a quote from the living bible in reference to Php 2:5-7 stating:

"who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God", source

This means you once agreed with the LB's interpretation. Based on the grammar of Php 2:5-7 and the usage of the term "harpagmos" elsewhere in scripture, Mr. Wallace and Mr. Martin disagrees with yours and the LB's interpretation in that Christ was not clinging to his rights as God, but instead chose not to grasp at being equal with the Father. Big difference between the two. The former indicates Christ was equal to God. The latter indicates He was not. Mr Wallace, Mr Martin, and I agree with the latter. And now you do also. Nothing wrong with growing in grace and knowledge :)
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
I see we are on an unproductive merry go round basically repeating our points. I'll have mercy and let you off the hook this one time :). Enjoy your day...
LOL, you are fun to talk with James! I will be merciful also, and allow you off the hook. Just don't tell anyone or they'll expect me to do it with them all the time :) And thank you...I did have a very good weekend and hope you did as well.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
He could, I'm sure, but why would it make sense for Him to do so? Why would He have intentionally deceived people by telling them that He was not merely a spirit but had a body of flesh and bones?

Why do you think a sinless Jesus was being deceptive at all? He instantly appeared to them in a room from thin air (Joh 20:19,26). A clear indication of his spirit form. He also appeared to them in the form of flesh and bone. The logical conclusion is he had the power to transform himself from spirit to flesh and bone and vice versa.

It would be deceptive because of what he stated:

"Look at my hands. Look at my feet. You can see that it's really me. Touch me and make sure that I am not a ghost, because ghosts don't have bodies, as you see that I do." (Luke: 24:39).

This one verse thoroughly refutes the notion that Jesus rose as a spirit creature who would later haunt the apostles.

I remember preparing dinner and setting it on the table. I then went to my computer to check on a recipe when I heard some paper rattling. Thinking my little nephew might be into something, I asked "Are you eating my cookies?"

"No", he replied.

When I went into the kitchen I saw the opened package and asked why he had lied to me. "But I didn't" he responded. "I'd already finished the cookies by the time you asked".

If Jesus's answer to the apostles is correct because he had just finished transforming himself from spirit to flesh, his answer would be every bit deceptive as my nephew's.
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
You said, "The basis is still the truth that lies inside the word of God—the Bible." Which leads me back to the original question which you continue to dodge, which one of the thousands of denominations within the Christian religion has the full truth?

I won't answer for Yoshua, but I will give you my opinion on this:

The truth is Jesus Christ: “I am the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6), and the term "Christian" means a follower of Christ. So to the extent you follow Christ you have the truth (1 John 4:15). True religion focuses on a relationship with God (see: http://www.gotquestions.org/true-religion.html). It doesn't come from setting up orphanages and widow houses (James 1:27), instead these things come as a natural outflow of one's relationship with God.

Good. So you admit you were wrong. Nothing wrong with that. My original interpretation matched Mr. Wallace's and Mr. Martin's, your original interpretation did not. You posted a quote from the living bible in reference to Php 2:5-7 stating:

"who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God", source

Yoshua was not wrong, and it's not one or the other, with one interpretation "wrong" and the other "right". The fact that he was in the "form of God" makes him equal to God since there is only one God, not two. Both interpretations are correct. I like the way Ellicott's commentary puts it:

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God.—There are two main interpretations of this passage; first, the interpretation given in our version, which makes it simply an explanation and enforcement of the words “being in the form of God”; secondly, the translation thought it not a prize to be grasped at to be equal with God, which begins in it the statement of our Lord’s voluntary self-humiliation, to be completed in the words, “but emptied Himself of glory.” The former preserves the literal translation of the original word “robbery;” the latter, in accordance with a not uncommon usage, makes it equivalent to “the thing snatched at,” and if this be allowed, has abundant examples in other writings to support the meaning thus given to the whole phrase. Either interpretation yields good sense and sound doctrine; neither does violence to the general context. But the latter is to be preferred; first (1) because it suits better the idea of the passage, which is to emphasise the reality of our Lord’s humility, and preserves the opposition implied in the “but” following; (2) because it has the great preponderance of the ancient Greek interpreters in its favour; (3) because it can, on the whole, appeal more confidently to ordinary usage of the phrase. The sense is that, being in the form of God, and therefore having equality with God, He set no store on that equality, as a glory to Himself, compared with the power of giving salvation to all men, which He is pleased to consider a new joy and glory.
 
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