Why the Hell . . . .

[Draka]

I don't think this is true. Many atheists etc can or do have a Deity idea.

No. What I am saying, whether you believe it is true or not, is that belief is not purely a choice thing. It is a reasoning thing. It is internal unconscious weighing of information. And understanding the concept of something does not equal believing in it. You can understand the concept of fairies, it doesn't mean you believe in them. Whether you believe in something or not has to do with experience and knowledge which either supports or contradicts what information you have in regards to the topic. If someone's experience and knowledge opposes the basic concept and information in regards to a particular deity then they cannot cognitively believe in it. You can't "choose" to go against your own brain. The "convincing" is evidence based, the evidence being personal experience and knowledge. If one is internally convinced of something it is not a choice. If a person has been convinced of another deity, or of no deity at all, then they cannot simply "choose" to believe otherwise. One cannot choose to believe in the Christian god. One must be convinced on a personal level. Should people who have not been convinced be condemned for that lack of being convinced? For their experiences and education on the subject not substantiating that particular god? For their own reasoning ability preventing them from believing due to their own flow of logic within their mind?

Does it make sense to condemn those who CANNOT believe?

 

[Draka]

Well, that puts Wonder Woman at the top of the heap of superheroes in my book. I didn't even know she had such a lasso. Was is used in the TV series? All I really remember is her deflecting bullets with her wrist guards, and that she was pretty hot. The only comics I read much were off the beaten path, mainly Uncle Scroge. He had some great adventures, and he was an honorable capitalist. Most people only remember him from DuckTales which trashed the whole idea.

As for Truth, I've been hard at it for over 20 years, and I think I've come up with a couple of determinations. I equate God with Truth, even if that Truth isn't a supernatural sentient being. That's why I capitalize it. I thought I'd really done good until I discovered that Gandhi had come up with the same idea long before I was even born. (Sigh.)

But the other thing helps me conceptualize Truth very well. It's that there are four (maybe more but none I've been able to think of) aspects of Truth: knowledge, justice, love and beauty. The former is pure objective Truth (science), and the latter is pure subjective Truth (art), with the other two being where objective and subjective overlap. I know it sounds sort of simplistic, but it's held up; and when you think of it, it sort of makes sense that it would be simple, though delving into those aspects rarely is.

FWIW, and thanks for your response.

 

[Riders]

Ive Jewish folks say hell is a Greek idea, is this correct Greeks created it?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ah, yes, actually i think that there are more than one 'Hell/s/'. This idea is present within Scripture, as well, however, when it was translated into English, the word ''Hell'' was used for almost all the references //to the different Hells. The 'type' of Hell, is either specified, or, one can tell by context.

In what context and definition are the other hells described?

Where in scripture does it suggest other hells (are they different from each other?)?

How I see it from a reality level is hell is separation from god. "I never knew you"....is punishment in itself. I also sense that the Greeks or Roman pagans had something to contribute to what mainsteam christians call hell.

More than one?

By what means did you come to that conclusion?

A more less debative question, how does your spiritual view differ from those who only believe in one hell and how do you view nonbelievers in what hell they go to?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ive Jewish folks say hell is a Greek idea, is this correct Greeks created it?

Whether the Greeks created the false idea of a forever burning hell or not, when the Jews began mixing with the Greeks they adopted their religious-myth hell idea as Scripture.
Although Not found in Scripture, false clergy often teach a non-biblical hell as if it is the Bible's hell.
Such wrong teachings do Not make the biblical hell as wrong, but makes the false teachings as wrong.
The Bible's hell is simply mankind's temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead until resurrected out of biblical hell.
Jesus has the keys to unlock the grave and he will - Revelation 1:18

Jesus taught sleep in death ( Not pain ) - John 11:11-14 which is in harmony with the old Hebrews Scriptures that the dead are Not conscious.
- Psalms 6:5; Psalms 13:3; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In what context and definition are the other hells described?

If I may take the liberty, I am wondering what your thoughts might be on the verses at Revelation 20:13-14 ?
There it mentions that everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' (KJV ) meaning resurrected out of biblical hell.
So, if hell was a permanent place then No one could get out of hell. ( God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27 )
The Bible's hell, according to Scripture ' gives up ' its dead, then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell ( hades/haides ) according to Revelation 1:18 before vacant biblical hell ends up in ' second death ' for vacated hell ( grave )

 

[james2ko]

It's said that hell was originally created as a place for Satan and his angels. (From what a lot of Christians have said, evidently Satan hasn't found his way there yet, as he's still leading us good humans astray.) Fine, but then god decided to use hell as a final resting place for those of us who fail to toe his line. So what's the deal here? Was hell going to waste with no Satan to burn?Just what is accomplished by putting people in hell?

Those are loaded, leading questions. First we have to define the bible's four terms that are translated "hell". Two of them simply mean the "grave" (sheol, hades). One is a fiery garbage pit outside Jerusalem (gehenna). The final one (tartaroo/abyss/deep) is a spiritual prison where satan and his demons are on "work release" (Luk 8:31) awaiting their judgment (2 Pe 2:4).

Out of all the interpretations of the "where, what, and how's" of hell, I found this one to be the most logically and biblically consistent:

At some point in the future after satan and his demons have been removed forever (Rev 20:10), every human being that ever lived will be resurrected to physical life for their first "real" opportunity at becoming an eternal spirit being (Rev 20:11-12). The veil of deception will finally be eliminated (Isa 25:7-8).

After a period of time (Isa 65:20), they will have to decide whether they will accept or reject Christ. Those who reject His way will have to be thrown into a type of gehenna fire, dubbed the lake of fire, and simply cease to exist (Mat 10:28;Rev 20:14-15). Those who accept will become an eternal spirit being and join the God family.

Or does god simply get a kick out of making people suffer?

God does not desire for anyone to cease to exist and wants all to get to know and accept Him (2 Pe 3:9; 1 Ti 2:4). After removing every obstacle (satan's deception) and excuse to accept His way, those who still choose to reject Him will leave Him no choice.

Since the new heavens and earth will not have an atmosphere (Rev 21:1), only supernatural beings can survive this environment. He cannot give anyone eternal life who rejects His way. That would only serve to create more satans (adversaries). The very beings He had to eliminate.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If I may take the liberty, I am wondering what your thoughts might be on the verses at Revelation 20:13-14 ?
There it mentions that everyone in biblical hell is ' delivered up ' (KJV ) meaning resurrected out of biblical hell.
So, if hell was a permanent place then No one could get out of hell. ( God resurrected Jesus out of biblical hell - Acts of the Apostles 2:27 )
The Bible's hell, according to Scripture ' gives up ' its dead, then, emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Jesus has the keys to unlock biblical hell ( hades/haides ) according to Revelation 1:18 before vacant biblical hell ends up in ' second death ' for vacated hell ( grave )

I will take your word for it. Im not biblicaly knowledge anymore. I just wanted to understand how you see that differently than mainstream. I read the verses. You can say its metaphor; but, I honestly dont know what many Christians actually believe in. Do you believe that there is a lake of fire?

 

[Ingledsva]

Disagreeing with God's morals doesn't make God cease to exist or cease to be the judge that will hold all to account. And thinking His judgements hateful or foolish does not make them so.

Nor does your belief make him or his judgments real.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Because God opened my eyes to see the glory of His Gospel, the glories in the teachings and life of Jesus of Nazareth, who by His death purchased my salvation though I did not deserve it and gave me life as I was dead in my sins. I would be presented with all the evidence in the world and still not believe, just as many people hated and rejected Jesus even though He performed miracles right in front of their eyes, if it were not for God's saving grace which changed my heart and granted me repentance.

All we have are stories saying that.

Perhaps they rejected him because he did not do any miracles, or anything the Messiah was supposed to do?

*

 

[Parsimony]

And those upon whom God has mercy wouldn't know what they are being saved from. God's execution of His justice shows His glory. If God only allowed 'righteous' persons to live in the first place, there wouldn't be anyone alive, it is entirely God's prerogative to have mercy upon those whom He has called among a wicked and rebellious people.

Preventing people from being born who would eventually go to Hell isn't the same as saying only righteous people should be allowed to be born. Rather, the implication of Iridescence's statement seems to be that only allowing those people to be born who would eventually accept God out of their free will and get saved appears to be the better option.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Non-believers have less of a chance, of heaven, however, they are not excluded outright , from it. Hell is not mandatory for all non-believers, it never was. That being said, there is a reason that it is highly encouraged, to simply accept religious and divine truth.
There is a good chance that anyone who does not accept divine truth /which is a sin , might go to Hell or /one of the Hells/

Shrugs. I guess it depends. If god doesnt value the persons right to live the divine truth within himself, then I guess it is probable that person would go to one hell or another. I would have to study that more to really go in depth with the hells. Im just familar with, if you dont believe, you miss out. The details no seems to agree on...and thats among christians.

I mean, I have christians telling me not to tell others about christ but when they tell each other about Christ, I wonder if what I said was more appropriate than what they said....and its their faith.

It just makes me wonder.

 

[Skwim]

Those are loaded, leading questions. First we have to define the bible's four terms that are translated "hell". Two of them simply mean the "grave" (sheol, hades). One is a fiery garbage pit outside Jerusalem (gehenna). The final one (tartaroo/abyss/deep) is a spiritual prison where satan and his demons are on "work release" (Luk 8:31) awaiting their judgment (2 Pe 2:4).

Out of all the interpretations of the "where, what, and how's" of hell, I found this one to be the most logically and biblically consistent:

At some point in the future after satan and his demons have been removed forever (Rev 20:10), every human being that ever lived will be resurrected to physical life for their first "real" opportunity at becoming an eternal spirit being (Rev 20:11-12). The veil of deception will finally be eliminated (Isa 25:7-8).

After a period of time (Isa 65:20), they will have to decide whether they will accept or reject Christ. Those who reject His way will have to be thrown into a type of gehenna fire, dubbed the lake of fire, and simply cease to exist (Mat 10:28;Rev 20:14-15). Those who accept will become an eternal spirit being and join the God family.

It makes no difference how you dance around ''the bible's four terms that are translated "hell." What I'm talking about is the place described in the Bible as

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 13:42
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
​

Now, if you can't call it hell then call it something else. It's name doesn't really matter. What does matter is that this is where people who haven't toed god's line end up. As for me, I'm calling it "hell."

God does not desire for anyone to cease to exist and wants all to get to know and accept Him (2 Pe 3:9; 1 Ti 2:4). After removing every obstacle (satan's deception) and excuse to accept His way, those who still choose to reject Him will leave Him no choice.

From these two passages I don't see any indication of anyone ceasing to exist. It just refers to those not making it into god's good graces, so to speak. And, according to Matthew 25:46 (“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”) their sorry fate will last forever. As far as god not wanting it, this is silly. He set up hell, made the rules, and, being omniscient, knew how it would all play out. So any such desire or lack of it simply doesn't make sense. It's like desiring or not desiring the sun to rise in the morning.


.

 

[Ingledsva]

Haha loving that smiley, did make me grin.

The faithless are counted among the wicked, and also hate and rebel against God.

EDIT, elaboration: Unbelief is a sin in itself, because it is a wilful suppression of the truth (Romans 1). The Bible doesn't treat it as a passive lack of something that isn't the fault of the person.

Not believing your fairy tale, - over another, - or none at all, - is not wicked, - or rebellion.

It is this kind of teaching that lets us know this is not actually God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why would you tell people about Christ, if your not a Christian?

I think of others before I think of myself. In my religion and in my practice, I am taught that to bring others peace and compassion, one must have empathy. A person should drop to the same leel as their friend and help them in the manner in which that friend would appreciate it. If the friend is open, like my friend I hda for 20, they appreciate and find my help geinuine. I asked my friend and she said that she appreciate anyone giving her words from Christ.

At least in my experience in Christ, he taught to help others not just those who believe in him but those who do not. The same the other way around. I cannot imagine a Christian who will turn down Christ's words because it was spoken by a "stranger"' As if I voided his word for some on reason.

Im not like many non-christians and I hate being put into that category.

 

[InChrist]

And people who cognitively cannot believe in your god? That no matter how much they try, they simply cannot break the bounds of logic and cannot believe in that god? Belief is not merely a choice you know. It is a logical process of the brain. Weighing knowledge and experience constantly. Those of other religions, or no religion at all, believe such because they have been given cause to. They arrived at such stances religiously because they could simply not do otherwise. They are not following your "Satan" simply because they aren't following your god. You would think that an intelligent being would understand that much. If your god is an intelligent being then it wouldn't punish those restricted from believing in it due to their own brain and psychology. Especially given the belief that your god supposedly created everything, including us.

I agree with you that someone cannot simply or arbitrarily choose to believe. It is important that each person reach a point of finding enough evidence that they have reason to believe. I am of the perspective that the God who created heaven and earth has and does provide such evidence and reasons for anyone who seeks to know.

 

[InChrist]

There's a Hereafter or oblivion, much more humane and less distressing when you think about it.

Maybe, but I think the human perspective and opinion on the subject is limited in understanding, If God created beings (humans) in His image and breathed life into us then it may be that as eternal beings oblivion is and cannot be an option.

 

[Draka]

I agree with you that someone cannot simply or arbitrarily choose to believe. It is important that each person reach a point of finding enough evidence that they have reason to believe. I am of the perspective that the God who created heaven and earth has and does provide such evidence and reasons for anyone who seeks to know.

And if they seek to know and come up with a different belief? Are they to blame for reaching the "wrong" conclusion? If someone doesn't reach the "right" belief are they in the wrong for not seeking "right" or is god in the wrong for not providing sufficient evidence?

 

[InChrist]

And if they seek to know and come up with a different belief? Are they to blame for reaching the "wrong" conclusion? If someone doesn't reach the "right" belief are they in the wrong for not seeking "right" or is god in the wrong for not providing sufficient evidence?

Well I think the sincerity of one's search for truth and to know God is between the individual person and God. If God is the Creator of heaven and earth, I believe this Being would be able to provide adequate and perfect evidence and answers which are able reach to the heart and soul of any particular person sincerely seeking and this Being would also know the sincerity of one's heart in receiving or rejecting. I trust the love and justice of God to weight out the right and wrong of each one's heart, sincerity, and conclusion.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I agree with you that someone cannot simply or arbitrarily choose to believe. It is important that each person reach a point of finding enough evidence that they have reason to believe. I am of the perspective that the God who created heaven and earth has and does provide such evidence and reasons for anyone who seeks to know.

What, besides hearsay? I'm not basing the fate of my soul on that. There is none besides hearsay.

Well I think the sincerity of one's search for truth and to know God is between the individual person and God. If God is the Creator of heaven and earth, I believe this Being would be able to provide adequate and perfect evidence and answers which are able reach to the heart and soul of any particular person sincerely seeking and this Being would also know the sincerity of one's heart in receiving or rejecting.

But providing any such evidence would negate our free will--the one and only purpose for the universe.

I trust the love and justice of God to weight out the right and wrong of each one's heart, sincerity, and conclusion.

Better to have us seated in the Light of Truth and judge ourselves. The Hearafter, or oblivion.