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Wondering About Forgiveness

allfoak

Alchemist
@Spockrates

I don't mind waiting but i do not appreciate being ignored.
If i am of no help to you that is fine, but you ought not tell people one thing and do another.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
What l'd like to know is if you agree with me that each of the thoughts we mention not only have corresponding actions, but also have corresponding emotions and desires.

For example, could it be that the hatred I have for another actually is the animosity that I feel and the desire to harm that I have?
I would say that those thoughts are certainly imbued with the poison of hatred. One can also build a habit of jumping to hate-ridden thoughts instead of clearing your mind of hatred, which will, of course, perpetuate more hatred in the future. You can transmute anger/aggression/hatred into clearness of mind by turning that energy toward your own mind instead of projecting it outward onto others.
Or do you think the truth might be that these thoughts are such emotions and desires?
Possibly, but not necessarily, as hatred can be transmuted into clarity of mind, and desire can be transmuted into discernment.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I would say that those thoughts are certainly imbued with the poison of hatred. One can also build a habit of jumping to hate-ridden thoughts instead of clearing your mind of hatred, which will, of course, perpetuate more hatred in the future. You can transmute anger/aggression/hatred into clearness of mind by turning that energy toward your own mind instead of projecting it outward onto others.

Possibly, but not necessarily, as hatred can be transmuted into clarity of mind, and desire can be transmuted into discernment.

I think we've pretty much laid the groundwork for comparing forgiveness. Let me know if you are still of the opinion that it is a thought.
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
Or do we not agree about what murder sometimes is?

I am compelled to jump into the discussion for a few reasons. Primarily because I strongly disagree with any idea suggesting God (the Father) is in need of forgiveness or is needing to forgive. More on that in a moment, though I feel I've already touched upon this previously and somewhat explained it. Certainly could use more explanation for those who see it as disputable.

I quoted this question regarding murder because I think it indirectly (or perhaps directly) applies to what forgiveness is. I observed in this dialogue statements regarding murderous actions and murderous thoughts and how they are connected, and which one actually constitutes murder. Personally, I've never (fully) understood the so called objective view of what actually is considered murder and what is not. I see it all in the same boat, and feel the distinctions are between trivial and arguably deceptive. I can see the superficial distinctions. Killing a spouse is not the same as killing the neighbor's baby. Killing own self is not the same as killing a stranger at the mall. Killing an enemy combatant is not the same as killing a local law enforcement official. But, not so surprisingly, all these situations have something in common, killing a human being. To me, all of these would be murder. And yet, I do recognize that for some (perhaps the majority) that killing and murder are (nowhere near or) not the same thing.

Without exception, forgiveness applies to all of them. Without a doubt, God would not need to forgive any of them, for God is not insane (or confused) about what is actually occurring. We are, or may be. If we are, as God is (Love), then forgiveness would be wholly unnecessary. Forgiveness is only necessary where there is a perceived lack of Love. I capitalize Love because, it is not the conditional 'love' of which I speak. Not the exclusive kind where a love for say a spouse is considered greater than the love of a neighbor's child. You think trying to understand forgiveness is challenging, try to wrap your head around unconditional Love, and understanding how when that is found/accepted, forgiveness is rendered unnecessary.

My paradigm understands that there are three things (thoughts really) that appear to counter Love: 1 - fear, 2 - attack, 3 - suffering/guilt. In actuality, it is really only one thought that once accepted as part of "who I am" splinters into a plurality of thoughts, all of which are cleverly designed to delay return of awareness to Self as Love. The one thought is fear. Even more tough to wrap one's mind around this 'power' than forgiveness or Love. But in essence, collectively, this is what is fundamentally what is occurring in this world where separation from God is held as THE reality. Ya know, the 'objective reality' we pride ourselves on understanding, as if we all mutually agree upon its existence, and yet have literally no way of establishing. Thus the rabbit hole.

Murderous actions, or lustful actions are given all meaning by the thinker. This counters the objective notion, but I find that to truly understand forgiveness (in an intellectual way), this must be understood. It is really understanding own self's desire to draw distinctions in thoughts about what ultimately has to do with fear. I do think, intellectually, it is not so challenging to forego those distinctions, but foregoing them does amount to a form of sacrifice. What forgiveness has the power to do is sacrifice the fear associated with any thought. It cuts to the chase where distinctions are dancing on a fence that is entirely made up by the thinker. Reading that as purely subjective is, I find, not understanding reality. It is clearly intersubjective as there is visibly more than my individual mind at work in reality. But, who We Are, is in reality, who I Am. Understanding this might be considered very profound, or it might be met with fear as in realizing there is a distinct possibility that violation of privacy is therefore occurring (constantly).

So, even the so called answers to the fundamental problem (fear) can be met with concern, hesitation, or more bluntly (more) fear.

Forgiveness then becomes the only sane defense. The only thought that is not offering a potential 2 edged sword to the thinker. In my paradigm or understanding, it is the one illusion that undoes all the others, all of which are making of a world where separation from God is deemed reality. Shared reality. (What an oxymoron given the nature of said 'reality.')

Forgiveness is not about what you do for another, because in reality that other is You. As that may not be understood, nor perceived and instead separation from own Self is perceived as 'reality,' then forgiveness of so called others may indeed be helpful going forward. Though if sitting back and contemplating on how forgiveness worked with any perceived other, it would readily present itself as realizing it was forgiving own thoughts of what the 'other' previously meant to you. And allowing what the brother does mean to you in reality. Might first be perceived as emptiness, but a void would be a great sign considering the alternative was plausibly seen as 'my enemy' or 'one who doesn't care about my interests, at all.'

To bring this wall of text to an end, I would say that while forgiveness is not for God, the Father, it is a matter of divine intervention into an insane belief that Creation is in some fashion separated from Creator. And because there is a part of You (collective You, or Us) that has not forgotten its own Divinity, it has offered up forgiveness as a blessing for all to freely use, and to fully return awareness to Divine Self. Return to Love, for that is Who You Are. Return to Christ mind, that you may see Christ in everyone. Knowing God's Love is without end, without lack and rendering fear to the nothingness of which it came.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Thank you, but I'd like to finish our conversation, first, if that is OK. I think we're near the point of a reaching a conclusion about forgiveness.
Alright.
I think we've pretty much laid the groundwork for comparing forgiveness. Let me know if you are still of the opinion that it is a thought.
I would say that forgiveness is a specific action of letting go of/dropping/getting rid of hatred and resentment within your mind. You can accomplish this either consciously, or unconsciously.
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
Alright.

I would say that forgiveness is a specific action of letting go of/dropping/getting rid of hatred and resentment within your mind. You can accomplish this either consciously, or unconsciously.

Thank you. So forgiveness, like murder, lust and generosity, is an action. Yes, I can see that. But what is the cause of this action? We know the thought of hatred sometimes causes murder, the thought of compassion sometimes causes generosity, the thought of lust sometimes causes adultery. So what is the thought that sometimes causes forgiveness?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
I am compelled to jump into the discussion for a few reasons. Primarily because I strongly disagree with any idea suggesting God (the Father) is in need of forgiveness or is needing to forgive. More on that in a moment, though I feel I've already touched upon this previously and somewhat explained it. Certainly could use more explanation for those who see it as disputable.

I quoted this question regarding murder because I think it indirectly (or perhaps directly) applies to what forgiveness is. I observed in this dialogue statements regarding murderous actions and murderous thoughts and how they are connected, and which one actually constitutes murder. Personally, I've never (fully) understood the so called objective view of what actually is considered murder and what is not. I see it all in the same boat, and feel the distinctions are between trivial and arguably deceptive. I can see the superficial distinctions. Killing a spouse is not the same as killing the neighbor's baby. Killing own self is not the same as killing a stranger at the mall. Killing an enemy combatant is not the same as killing a local law enforcement official. But, not so surprisingly, all these situations have something in common, killing a human being. To me, all of these would be murder. And yet, I do recognize that for some (perhaps the majority) that killing and murder are (nowhere near or) not the same thing.

Without exception, forgiveness applies to all of them. Without a doubt, God would not need to forgive any of them, for God is not insane (or confused) about what is actually occurring. We are, or may be. If we are, as God is (Love), then forgiveness would be wholly unnecessary. Forgiveness is only necessary where there is a perceived lack of Love. I capitalize Love because, it is not the conditional 'love' of which I speak. Not the exclusive kind where a love for say a spouse is considered greater than the love of a neighbor's child. You think trying to understand forgiveness is challenging, try to wrap your head around unconditional Love, and understanding how when that is found/accepted, forgiveness is rendered unnecessary.

My paradigm understands that there are three things (thoughts really) that appear to counter Love: 1 - fear, 2 - attack, 3 - suffering/guilt. In actuality, it is really only one thought that once accepted as part of "who I am" splinters into a plurality of thoughts, all of which are cleverly designed to delay return of awareness to Self as Love. The one thought is fear. Even more tough to wrap one's mind around this 'power' than forgiveness or Love. But in essence, collectively, this is what is fundamentally what is occurring in this world where separation from God is held as THE reality. Ya know, the 'objective reality' we pride ourselves on understanding, as if we all mutually agree upon its existence, and yet have literally no way of establishing. Thus the rabbit hole.

Murderous actions, or lustful actions are given all meaning by the thinker. This counters the objective notion, but I find that to truly understand forgiveness (in an intellectual way), this must be understood. It is really understanding own self's desire to draw distinctions in thoughts about what ultimately has to do with fear. I do think, intellectually, it is not so challenging to forego those distinctions, but foregoing them does amount to a form of sacrifice. What forgiveness has the power to do is sacrifice the fear associated with any thought. It cuts to the chase where distinctions are dancing on a fence that is entirely made up by the thinker. Reading that as purely subjective is, I find, not understanding reality. It is clearly intersubjective as there is visibly more than my individual mind at work in reality. But, who We Are, is in reality, who I Am. Understanding this might be considered very profound, or it might be met with fear as in realizing there is a distinct possibility that violation of privacy is therefore occurring (constantly).

So, even the so called answers to the fundamental problem (fear) can be met with concern, hesitation, or more bluntly (more) fear.

Forgiveness then becomes the only sane defense. The only thought that is not offering a potential 2 edged sword to the thinker. In my paradigm or understanding, it is the one illusion that undoes all the others, all of which are making of a world where separation from God is deemed reality. Shared reality. (What an oxymoron given the nature of said 'reality.')

Forgiveness is not about what you do for another, because in reality that other is You. As that may not be understood, nor perceived and instead separation from own Self is perceived as 'reality,' then forgiveness of so called others may indeed be helpful going forward. Though if sitting back and contemplating on how forgiveness worked with any perceived other, it would readily present itself as realizing it was forgiving own thoughts of what the 'other' previously meant to you. And allowing what the brother does mean to you in reality. Might first be perceived as emptiness, but a void would be a great sign considering the alternative was plausibly seen as 'my enemy' or 'one who doesn't care about my interests, at all.'

To bring this wall of text to an end, I would say that while forgiveness is not for God, the Father, it is a matter of divine intervention into an insane belief that Creation is in some fashion separated from Creator. And because there is a part of You (collective You, or Us) that has not forgotten its own Divinity, it has offered up forgiveness as a blessing for all to freely use, and to fully return awareness to Divine Self. Return to Love, for that is Who You Are. Return to Christ mind, that you may see Christ in everyone. Knowing God's Love is without end, without lack and rendering fear to the nothingness of which it came.

Thanks for contributing to the conversation Crossfire and I are having. You have explained what forgiveness is for, but what you think forgiveness is, I'm not quite sure. Please tell me briefly, in a sentence or two: What is forgiveness?
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
"Philosophy, not a religion" is, itself, a misunderstanding of both. Heathenry is a religion, or at least a set of religions. It's just neither organized nor particularly unified.

Heathenry isn't really atheistic, but polytheist. However, positive theistic belief isn't all that necessary, since the Gods aren't front-and-center; behavior is. A Heathen can "believe" (mostly) whatever they want and still be Heathen.

Yes, I think I understand. Thanks.
[emoji4]
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
@Spockrates

There are many things in our lives that we just know how to do.
We don't think about each step we take when we walk for instance.
This is something that we just know, it has become internalized.
Please give an example.

It is possible to also know forgiveness.

That is my hope!

What must first be understood is that the Christian concept of the term can be and is for most, confusing.
The reason for this, is that Christianity is mostly full of opinion rather than guidance, unfortunately, it has become a world of confusion.

If you want to know something then it must become part of you, body, soul and spirit.
The first place to start for most is the body of course.
Our physical health is very important.
When we don't have good health we want to know why and our mind suffers with the body.
We know nothing of forgiveness in this state of mind.

I don't understand. Are you saying suffering prevents a person from knowing how to forgive?

As we begin to get to know our body we get to know ourselves, as we get to know ourselves we come to know forgiveness, we come to know forgiveness in this way because it takes forgiveness in order to get to know ourselves.
If we cannot accept ourselves for who we are, we will never be able to change anything.
There is no room for hate in the process of transformation, even if it is something within ourselves that we hate.
If we want to know forgiveness then we must get to know ourselves.
If we are willing to do what it takes to come to know ourselves, the knowledge of forgiveness has to come as a result, it is part of the process.

You see, coming to the knowledge of forgiveness is actually supposed to be a part of growing up, like learning to walk.
There should be no question about something as basic as forgiveness by the time we reach adulthood.
We should just know what it means to be forgiven.
The power to forgive sin is the power to free ourselves from bondage, which brings the power to begin to guide others to the same freedom..

When we live in the world and become part of it instead of being separate from it, it is easy to become confused about the basics of life.

Well, I guess I am confused, then. But hopefully my becoming part of this virtual world with people like you will help me understand.

[emoji4]
 

allfoak

Alchemist
Please give an example.

This is the example.

We don't think about each step we take when we walk for instance.
This is something that we just know, it has become internalized.


I don't understand. Are you saying suffering prevents a person from knowing how to forgive?

No.
I am saying that our state of mind suffers if our physical health is allowed to deteriorate.
Suffering does not necessarily prevent one from knowing forgiveness but could hinder a person from entering the state of mind necessary to experience it if the suffering is brought on through neglect.
For some, suffering is the gateway to the kingdom, for others, the gateway to hell, it depends upon many factors and does not seem to be relevant to the subject at the moment.


Well, I guess I am confused, then. But hopefully my becoming part of this virtual world with people like you will help me understand.

To find forgiveness you must seek to enter the world within.
You will learn nothing from the things or even the people of this world unless you first learn the key of knowledge.


What i am trying to say to you is that your struggle with understanding forgiveness is an internal struggle that you are externalizing.
It won't work.


The Socratic method is useless if you are not able to recognize the truth when you hear the truth.
And you must be able to incorporate the truth once you hear it, rather than just acknowledge that you see it and then just move on to some other intellectual exercise.


You do not seem to be able to grasp the core of what i am saying to you.
I do not hear any internal struggle coming from the things you post.
You certainly have the capacity to grasp the concept of forgiveness intellectually, if you have not already done so.
What i am afraid is happening is that your intellect is getting in the way of you being able to experience forgiveness, which after all is the only way to gain wisdom rather than only understanding something intellectually.


This of course is the reason for the attack on the method of which you have chosen to use to try and grasp something that is much more than an intellectual exercise.
Socrates was able to employ this method of obtaining knowledge because he already had the key to obtaining knowledge.
The questions for Socrates were just a way of confirming the truth, something that he already knew was inside of himself and could be obtained through the use of many different methods.


The Socratic method is nothing more than a method and like any other method, if not used correctly, it will not work.

 
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Acim

Revelation all the time
Thanks for contributing to the conversation Crossfire and I are having. You have explained what forgiveness is for, but what you think forgiveness is, I'm not quite sure. Please tell me briefly, in a sentence or two: What is forgiveness?

Overlooking errors perceived in others.

(Pretty good, as I did it in 5 words.)
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
To me, it helps to realize just how forgiving you are of your own self. This point is fairly easy to make, but also is where things get profound.

The simple point is if say someone near you is being too noisy, you might not find it too easy to overlook the error in them that you are perceiving. Might think they are rude, annoying, disorderly, and perhaps many other judgments that seem very appropriate to the situation. Probably can get witnesses to your judgments. As in, "don't you think it is super annoying how loud that guy is being? Yeah, me too." But, if you are the person that is being too noisy, then that's different, now isn't it? If someone approaches you kindly and asks you to tone it down, perhaps you oblige and think nothing of it. Or perhaps they aren't so kind in telling you how noisy you are to them. Either way, whatever their judgments are against you being too noisy, aren't likely to be your own judgments about yourself. IOW, you aren't really that rude, that annoying, that whatever. Might acknowledge you were in that situation for a few fleeting moments, but hours later, and for sure say years later, you'll be perfectly willing to overlook any errors in yourself over that (little) incident. But if the noisy person is not you, and you run into that same person years later, might you still filter everything they do through the judgment of, "you're that noisy, annoying person I saw awhile back. Yeah, what do you want? Cause frankly, I don't have time to deal with inherently rude people."

When it's your own self, magically the judgments don't stick for all that long. You're able to overlook own errors and proceed as if the pursuit of life, liberty and happiness are fully due to you and you've done next to nothing to hinder that.

The profound part though is realizing that in reality, the only person that you know for sure needs forgiveness is yourself. Forgive this person 100%, and if you are paying attention to your own thoughts, you will have literally forgiven the entire world.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
Thank you. So forgiveness, like murder, lust and generosity, is an action. Yes, I can see that. But what is the cause of this action? We know the thought of hatred sometimes causes murder, the thought of compassion sometimes causes generosity, the thought of lust sometimes causes adultery. So what is the thought that sometimes causes forgiveness?
There could be any number of reasons behind the decision to let go of anger and resentment. A shift in perspective, a desire to no longer be a victim, interest in the healthful reasons behind letting go of anger, etc. Anger will normally pass away of its own accord if you don't hold onto it. You can see this by observing any two year old throwing a fit of anger, and then suddenly getting over it. So, I would say the actual mechanism behind forgiveness is impermanence in regards to anger, hatred, and resentment.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
I would say that those thoughts are certainly imbued with the poison of hatred. One can also build a habit of jumping to hate-ridden thoughts instead of clearing your mind of hatred, which will, of course, perpetuate more hatred in the future. You can transmute anger/aggression/hatred into clearness of mind by turning that energy toward your own mind instead of projecting it outward onto others.

Possibly, but not necessarily, as hatred can be transmuted into clarity of mind, and desire can be transmuted into discernment.
I would also like to add this small point: transmuting aggression/resentment/hatred into clarity of mind is certainly useful when it comes to participating in the Socratic method. :sunglasses:
 

Spockrates

Wonderer.
This is the example.

So when you say there are somethings I don't have to learn, because I just know them, and I cannot think of one such thing and ask for an example, you reply, "This is an example." Since I don't know what that means, I have to say you are mistaken. How can what I don't know be en example of something I do know?
 
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