• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

There ain't no Jesus here.

rosends

Well-Known Member
I'm more like saying Not changing the definition, but that some things in Scripture have both a literal application and a spiritual application.
That seems more than a bit arbitrary and self-serving. Creating and applying the notion of "spiritual" in order to explain why the literal one doesn't fit is a reading system which post dates the biblical source text.
The arrival of Messiah Jesus has Not yet come because the soon coming ' time of separation ' - Matthew 25:31-33 - has Not yet taken place - Matthew 16:27
Jesus was here on earth until God resurrected the dead Jesus back to heaven - Acts of the Apostles 13:30; Acts of the Apostles 13:37; Psalms 16:10
Jesus gave a parable or illustration that first he would travel far away ( heaven ) before later returning in kingdom glory - Luke 19:11-13; Luke 19:14-15
That ' later ' returning in glory is the yet coming part.
so this insistence on using quotes from the gospels to explain the reading confirms that one cannot read the source material in a vacuum and find Jesus there. One needs the lens of gospel and its theology to find ways to read Jesus into the original material. Psalm 16 never mentions anything about Jesus - it is about David according to its first verse. You need to read outside material to be able to go back and reread it as invoking Jesus.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
First, I have a question because I see a ' pillar ' was anointed at Genesis 31:13, why would that be done ?
Anointing with oil is a way of consecrating something to an important purpose. The same thing is done in Ex. 30:26-28

I found Jehu anointed with oil at 2 Kings 9:1-2, but is there any record of anyone anointing Hazael or Elisha with oil ?
Moses was called Anointed One ( Christ ) although Not anointed with oil.
Cyrus was also Anointed One - Isaiah 45:1 - anointed to do a specific work in his case.
So, although Jesus was Not anointed with literal oil but with God's spirit - Matthew 1:16; Matthew 3:16 - still God's appointed one - Psalms 2:2; Luke 4:18 -
Jesus' office was Not dealing with an earthly kingship but would be a heavenly anointing - Psalms 45:7-8
There are a number of records indicating kings, prophets and priests were anointed.
There are two choices:
1. All the kings, prophets and priests were anointed with oil, because anointing was an expression of being raised to importance.
2. Random kings, prophets and priests were anointed, for some unknown reason.

Cyrus, not being Jewish may or may not have been anointed with oil. However, the Hebrew word for "anointing" has a secondary meaning derived from the purpose of anointing which is "to be raised to greatness" even though no anointing is being done. This is found in Num. 18:8 "...for all the holy things of the Children of Israel, for greatness (lit. for anointing), and for your children; an everlasting statute". The verse is saying that the Priests receive a special portion to illustrate their importance. It doesn't mean that every offering given to the priests had to be anointed with oil.

So we have to usages of the word "anointing". One when oil is used and one when nothing is used because the interpretation is derived from an effect of anointing rather than the action itself.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
B-R-A-Sh-I-TH bara Elohim
Taking the numerical powers
B= 2000
R= 200
A= 1000
SH = 300
I = 10
Th = 400
Total 3910 years from beginning to Christ birth
b=2, r=200, a=1, sh=300, i= 10, th=400
The total is 913.

From the looks of it you were counting how can I tweak the text to get Jesus numbers. Which is basically the Christian version of gematria.
So I guess that explains it.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
That seems more than a bit arbitrary and self-serving. Creating and applying the notion of "spiritual" in order to explain why the literal one doesn't fit is a reading system which post dates the biblical source text.
so this insistence on using quotes from the gospels to explain the reading confirms that one cannot read the source material in a vacuum and find Jesus there. One needs the lens of gospel and its theology to find ways to read Jesus into the original material. Psalm 16 never mentions anything about Jesus - it is about David according to its first verse. You need to read outside material to be able to go back and reread it as invoking Jesus.

Yes, the first application of Psalms 16 applies to King David.
Who are the two mentioned at David's Psalms 110:1
At Ezekiel 34:23-24 David is spoken of Not as King but as Prince.
With Jesus being King, then in the future David will be Prince - Psalms 45:16-17; Isaiah 32:1
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
For me, I say Messiah over saying the Messiah. So both words ' the ' and ' a ' aren't necessarily being used in pointing to Jesus as Messiah.
I'm not sure what you're saying at the end. But the difference means that we don't capitalize the word "messiah" because in context it means one of the many people that are anointed and not the specific Messiah that you know. So you read it, "an anointed one".

I think the word ' the ' - Daniel 9:25-26 - is Not found in the Septuagint.(?)
Its only in verse 26. And I found two that have it (blueletterbible and ellopos):
καὶ μετὰ τὰς ἑβδομάδας τὰς ἑξηκονταδύο

Also, because of No zero year, the year would be 29 CE. 29 CE would bring us to the date of Jesus' baptism ( either number brings us to Jesus time frame - Luke 3:21-23 - age 30 )
I don't understand why you are telling me the date Jesus was baptized. The verse is telling you when the messiah would be cut off and be no more, not when he would be baptized.
Also:
Year zero does not exist in the Anno Domini (or Common Era) system usually used to number years in the Gregorian calendar and in its predecessor, the Julian calendar. In this system, the year 1 BC is followed by AD 1.

Persian King Artaxerxes authorized Nehemiah to restore and rebuild Jerusalem - Nehemiah 2:1-8 - doesn't secular Persian history help establish the 455 BCE date
Did you read what verse 7 and 8 actually say? Those aren't letters to authorizing the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Those are letters of passage and a request for wood.
Ezra 1 actually has a decree by Cyrus authorizing the rebuilding. Why in the world would you choose an ambiguous verse in Nehemiah, when there's a clear one in Ezra?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Anointing with oil is a way of consecrating something to an important purpose. The same thing is done in Ex. 30:26-28
There are a number of records indicating kings, prophets and priests were anointed.
There are two choices:
1. All the kings, prophets and priests were anointed with oil, because anointing was an expression of being raised to importance.
2. Random kings, prophets and priests were anointed, for some unknown reason.
Cyrus, not being Jewish may or may not have been anointed with oil. However, the Hebrew word for "anointing" has a secondary meaning derived from the purpose of anointing which is "to be raised to greatness" even though no anointing is being done. This is found in Num. 18:8 "...for all the holy things of the Children of Israel, for greatness (lit. for anointing), and for your children; an everlasting statute". The verse is saying that the Priests receive a special portion to illustrate their importance. It doesn't mean that every offering given to the priests had to be anointed with oil.
So we have to usages of the word "anointing". One when oil is used and one when nothing is used because the interpretation is derived from an effect of anointing rather than the action itself.

Understand about Cyrus, but what about Moses Not being anointed with oil, nor the prophet Elisha, nor Hazael ?
So, in Scripture, Jesus from an effect of anointing rather than the action (oil) itself - Matthew 3:16-17
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Yes, the first application of Psalms 16 applies to King David.
So citing it the way you did was dishonest.
Who are the two mentioned at David's Psalms 110:1
God is referred to by the 4 letter name and then Abraham is referred to as "my master" (adoni) as per Gen 23:6.
At Ezekiel 34:23-24 David is spoken of Not as King but as Prince.
Actually, he text is not necessarily speaking of David, nor does it specifically say "prince" -- it says "nasi" which is a leader.
With Jesus being King, then in the future David will be Prince - Psalms 45:16-17; Isaiah 32:1
Psalm 45 never mentions Jesus, and it uses a different word (sarim) to indicate "generals" or "leaders" and it doesn't say anything about David's being demoted. Is. 32:1 also never mentions Jesus -- you read that in because you need to find it somewhere. The king and the sarim there have obvious referents who aren't Jesus.
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
b=2, r=200, a=1, sh=300, i= 10, th=400
The total is 913.

From the looks of it you were counting how can I tweak the text to get Jesus numbers. Which is basically the Christian version of gematria.
So I guess that explains it.
Is not only Jewish gamitria you know .:rolleyes:
Is occult an this why Satan turns your hearts to salt;)
Exodus was 20,000 years ago , religion existed before the exodus in the m/e , is all borrowed from those really nice people further east .:)
BTW Crowley was no christian he was occultist
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Understand about Cyrus, but what about Moses Not being anointed with oil, nor the prophet Elisha, nor Hazael ?
So, in Scripture, Jesus from an effect of anointing rather than the action (oil) itself - Matthew 3:16-17
Moses probably was anointed with oil, since we see from other cases, that was standard for prophets.
Why are you saying that Elisha and Hazael were not anointed with oil? It says they were in 1 Kings 19:15-16
You said Jesus was anointed by god's spirit. Now you are saying he was anointed by nothing? It doesn't say anything in Matthew 3 about Jesus being anointed by anything.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Is not only Jewish gamitria you know .:rolleyes:
Is occult an this why Satan turns your hearts to salt;)
Exodus was 20,000 years ago , religion existed before the exodus in the m/e , is all borrowed from those really nice people further east .:)
So you are using non-Jewish gematria on a Jewish text.
Makes sense...
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
So you are using non-Jewish gematria on a Jewish text.
Makes sense...
Crowley was dark side occultist no christian just kinda weird
220px-Crowley_unicursal_hexagram.svg.png

He uses those values all the way through his book
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I'm not sure what you're saying at the end. But the difference means that we don't capitalize the word "messiah" because in context it means one of the many people that are anointed and not the specific Messiah that you know. So you read it, "an anointed one".
Its only in verse 26. And I found two that have it (blueletterbible and ellopos):
καὶ μετὰ τὰς ἑβδομάδας τὰς ἑξηκονταδύο
I don't understand why you are telling me the date Jesus was baptized. The verse is telling you when the messiah would be cut off and be no more, not when he would be baptized.
Also:
Did you read what verse 7 and 8 actually say? Those aren't letters to authorizing the rebuilding of Jerusalem. Those are letters of passage and a request for wood.
Ezra 1 actually has a decree by Cyrus authorizing the rebuilding. Why in the world would you choose an ambiguous verse in Nehemiah, when there's a clear one in Ezra?

Jesus would first come as Messiah (person) at his baptism, but be cut off in death 3 1/2 years after his baptism.

Yes, a request for wood. Wood to be used in Jerusalem to replace the gates which were burnt down - Nehemiah 1:3 B
Isn't Ezra about the rebuilding of the temple - temple rebuilding - Ezra 3:8-9
Whereas Nehemiah sent to Jerusalem - Nehemiah 2:1-11
Nehemiah rebuilds the city walls - Nehemiah 3:1-32
Opposition to the rebuilding continues - Nehemiah 6:1-14, but the wall is completed in 52 days - Nehemiah 6:15-19
Jerusalem repopulated - Nehemiah 11:1-36
Inauguration of the wall - Nehemiah 12:27-43
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So you are using non-Jewish gematria on a Jewish text.
Makes sense...

There are corresponding or parallel cross-reference verses and passages all throughout the pages of Scripture.
They show the internal harmony among the writers.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Is not only Jewish gamitria you know .:rolleyes:
Is occult an this why Satan turns your hearts to salt;)
Exodus was 20,000 years ago , religion existed before the exodus in the m/e , is all borrowed from those really nice people further east .:)
BTW Crowley was no christian he was occultist

LOL! You are also using Christian Qabalah.

"Bekori Rashuni Asher Shamo Yeshuah Thaubodo"

Ye shall worship My Firstborn, My First, whose name is Jesus.

*
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I don't believe in Satan , God has no opposing force he absolute.
Human ego , superego , id
Satan is your id
Crowley believed like yourself in Satan an apparently this his source

The evil Satan is a Christian idea, not Jewish.

In the Jewish, Satan is a servant of YHVH.

*
 

SpeaksForTheTrees

Well-Known Member
LOL! You are also using Christian Qabalah.

"Bekori Rashuni Asher Shamo Yeshuah Thaubodo"

Ye shall worship My Firstborn, My First, whose name is Jesus.

*
Thought you might of appreciated bit of dark side occultist heathenry ;)
You just hate christian was up hun did he leave you
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
You talk bull , satan does not even exist in my world

LOL! Ask the Jews you are talking to here!

His job was to be the adversary. He set stumbling blocks to see how you did, and if found wanting, - he brought you before YHVH, as he does the High Priest.


Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him.


Psa 109:4 For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer.

Psa 109:5 And they have rewarded me evil for good, and hatred for my love.

Psa 109:6 Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand.

Psa 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin.

Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office.


*
 
Last edited:

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
So citing it the way you did was dishonest.
God is referred to by the 4 letter name and then Abraham is referred to as "my master" (adoni) as per Gen 23:6.
Actually, he text is not necessarily speaking of David, nor does it specifically say "prince" -- it says "nasi" which is a leader.
Psalm 45 never mentions Jesus, and it uses a different word (sarim) to indicate "generals" or "leaders" and it doesn't say anything about David's being demoted. Is. 32:1 also never mentions Jesus -- you read that in because you need to find it somewhere. The king and the sarim there have obvious referents who aren't Jesus.

Yes, God is referred to by the Tetragrammaton 4-letter name, but why would the other Lord be Abraham ? - Psalms 110:1
Agree, not specifically prince, but a leader as a chieftain would be in a ruling position, but Not as a king.
David is Not viewed as demoted - Ezekiel 34:24, but according to Christian text - Acts of the Apostles 2:34 - David is still 'asleep' in the grave.
Also, at Hebrews 11:13 Abraham died in faith but has Not received the promise.
Even the prophet Daniel looked forward to a future resurrection, or a future awakening from the grave - Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13
Because the one who will resurrect David, Abraham, and Daniel, etc. will be their ' life giver ' so in that sense then he will become their everlasting father ( life giver )- Isaiah 9:6
In Christian text there will be No earthly ruling king on earth but Jesus as King of Kings will govern over earth, so to be prince, leader, chieftain, etc. is a position of honor.
 
Top