There ain't no Jesus here.

[Politesse]

That's probably true. But it also opens up some questions regarding the validity of the NT's claim, which is what I'm trying to bring out here.

Well, there will never be an end to disagreements about the Scriptures. I do think it is a bit imperialistic to claim the Hebrew Scriptures as "Christian" property, but I don't think Christians are in the wrong simply for understanding them in their own terms. Even the living Christ acknowledged that he was not quite the Messiah that was expected - that he was turning some expectations on their heads. I think the world is best and most peaceful when we acknowlege some of the assumptions and expectations that impact the way we approach holy texts. We all bring ourselves to the table.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

He couldn't even save himself...

No to save himself , would of been to force Gods will on that day if he had of saved himself would of been effectively end of human free will .
It was humanity , not the Jewish per se that crucified him .Is a subjective rejection of god the Crucifixion ?
Even in face of death , he showed no weakness , also he did not force his will on anyone .Is Free religion
Was not the way of Jesus to force anything on anyone even in face of death
Athiesm is acceptable to my philosophy

 

[wizanda]

Is definitely no Jesus here in this thread only those that mis understand & defy God laws with a passion

Is 3 Jewish 1 Heathen and a Christian .

And me?

So I'd say Yeshua was in the thread; depending how you look at it...

Who is the Heathen by the way?.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

And me?

So I'd say Yeshua was in the thread; depending how you look at it...

Who is the Heathen by the way?.

2 follower of Jesus I thought you had abandon this thread ,

 

[sojourner]

That's probably true. But it also opens up some questions regarding the validity of the NT's claim, which is what I'm trying to bring out here.

What NT claim do you refer to?

 

[sojourner]

Is your fundermental flawed religious practices that caused the Holocaust .
I'm just grateful he came home alive

Y'know, the Jews came up with the language. They came up with the idea of "savior." Christians appropriated the idea, bastardized the language, and then got all entitled about the religion. At least the smart ones among us give Judaism its due, recognize it as the parent religion, and a valid and honorable religion that deserves our deference. Get lucid, man!

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Y'know, the Jews came up with the language. They came up with the idea of "savior." Christians appropriated the idea, bastardized the language, and then got all entitled about the religion. At least the smart ones among us give Judaism its due, recognize it as the parent religion, and a valid and honorable religion that deserves our deference. Get lucid, man!

777 and other Qabalistic writings of Aleister Crowley .
I owned this book over 20 years, today is the first is the first time I ever open
With Gods help I will beat this terrible affliction and become Athiest

 

[sojourner]

777 and other Qabalistic writings of Aleister Crowley .
I owned this book over 20 years, today is the first is the first time I ever open
With Gods help I will beat this terrible affliction and become Athiest

Your entire reply to my post is a non-sequitur. Alistair Crowley has nothing to do with either the Tanach, with Xy, or with Judaism.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Your entire reply to my post is a non-sequitur. Alistair Crowley has nothing to do with either the Tanach, with Xy, or with Judaism.

The temple of Solomon the king ,Equinox Vol1 No 5

 

[sojourner]

The temple of Solomon the king ,Equinox Vol1 No 5

That doesn't mean that he has anything to do with those things.

 

[Ingledsva]

Is English Oxford dictionary
Is as English as it gets , is accurate translation.

Definition of messiah in English:
messiah

Pronunciation: /mɪˈsʌɪə/
NOUN
promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
Christians as the Messiah of the Hebrew propheciesand the saviour of humankind.
saviour of a particular country, group, or cause:the club’s supporters have been tempted to regard him as a messiah rather than a manager

You use wrong word , is a flip of pole in your translation

Are you bothering to pay attention?

It doesn't matter if savior has more recently been added to the definition.

The word is originally a translation from the Hebrew, - thus ANOINTED, - not savior.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Cyrus the Great did never try to change the religions of the lands he conquered and God called him messiah .

What? Men later called him a messiah. God didn't call him anything.

*

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

That doesn't mean that he has anything to do with those things.

GMTRIA

Are you bothering to pay attention?

It doesn't matter if savior has more recently been added to the definition.

The word is originally a translation from the Hebrew, - thus ANOINTED, - not savior.

*

Bekori Rashuni Asher Shamo Yeshuah Thaubodo

 

[sojourner]

GMTRIA

That doesn't mean that he has anything to do with those things. I can talk about James Bond, but it doesn't mean that I have anything to do with either the stories, the movies, or the actors.

 

[Ingledsva]

GMTRIA

Bekori Rashuni Asher Shamo Yeshuah Thaubodo

Just More bull from you!

Tumah explained it perfectly.

Regardless, that's not a translation because the Hebrew word משיח comes from the root word "to anoint" and has no relation whatsoever to the root word for "to save".

As we have said, - "savior" is a later addition, which has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word. It merely shows a later "English" addition to meaning.

*

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Just More bull from you!

Tumah explained it perfectly.




As we have said, - "savior" is a later addition, which has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word. It merely shows a later "English" addition to meaning.

*

B-R-A-Sh-I-TH bara Elohim
Taking the numerical powers
B= 2000
R= 200
A= 1000
SH = 300
I = 10
Th = 400
Total 3910 years from beginning to Christ birth

B = Ben the son
R= Rauch the spirit
A = AB the father
Ra****h = the beginning

הבן , רוח , אבא , טריניטי , מושלם
בהתחלה אלוהים ראה שישראל לקבל את החוק
אני אבחר בתולה ראויה ישו נולד וקראת אליה מבורך
והיית סוגד שם מי הראשון שלי נולד הראשון שלי הוא ישו
כאשר האדון מגיע מי שם הוא ישוע לך שעוד סוגדים

 

[Daniel108]

By democracy ?
Sorry I can not and will not change my belief for 0.25% of world population that would want me executed for idolating had they total control of the execution of Gods laws.
I feel are several here that would not hesitate to throw the first stone.
The task of your belief in what the mashiach will bring is a no brainer to 99.75 % of world

May peace be with you,
“...I feel are several here that would not hesitate to throw the first stone...”

Sadly, it seems that SFTT is right, the vitriol of this discussion-- I think everyone would agree-- goes against the various religious teachings of those posting here. We need to help heal the world not add to its fears and hatreds. SFTT has shown an interest in understanding the teachings of other religions, and has shared how he carries the pain of his grandfather's death, which, no doubt, contributes to his attitude and prejudices, even as we are yet imperfect, at times needing the patience of others.

The present situation in the Middle East, between Muslims, Jews, and Christians is at a pivotal point-- will we help diffuse the situation by tolerantly reaching out to Muslims with patience and trust, or will our fears and prejudices ignite the fuse leading to more bloodshed? The future of the world depends upon each of us to set an example-- to light a candle that helps brighten our futures, or add to its darkness.

The choice is ours.

 

[Jon916]

All BS!

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

May peace be with you,
“...I feel are several here that would not hesitate to throw the first stone...”

Sadly, it seems that SFTT is right, the vitriol of this discussion-- I think everyone would agree-- goes against the various religious teachings of those posting here. We need to help heal the world not add to its fears and hatreds. SFTT has shown an interest in understanding the teachings of other religions, and has shared how he carries the pain of his grandfather's death, which, no doubt, contributes to his attitude and prejudices, even as we are yet imperfect, at times needing the patience of others.

The present situation in the Middle East, between Muslims, Jews, and Christians is at a pivotal point-- will we help diffuse the situation by tolerantly reaching out to Muslims with patience and trust, or will our fears and prejudices ignite the fuse leading to more bloodshed? The future of the world depends upon each of us to set an example-- to light a candle that helps brighten our futures, or add to its darkness.

The choice is ours.

And also with you
I should be grateful you half understand , I am )
However you mistake my contempt for the mindset , laws , prejudices that pollute Christianity , Judaism and Islam as prejudices . ?
Prejudice the very core of prejudices ongoing , in its ugliest form can be seen right here
A sample of the 613

1. Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4) (CCN9).
2. Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144).
3. Not to make idols even for others (Ex. 34:17; Lev. 19:4) (CCN10).
4. Not to use the ornament of any object of idolatrous worship (Deut. 7:25) (CCN17).
5. Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations (Deut. 7:26) (CCN18). See Grape Products.
6. Not to drink wine of idolaters (Deut. 32:38) (CCN15). See Grape Products.
7. Not to worship an idol in the way in which it is usually worshipped (Ex. 20:5) (CCN12).
8. Not to bow down to an idol, even if that is not its mode of worship (Ex. 20:5) (CCN11).
9. Not to prophesy in the name of an idol (Ex. 23:13; Deut. 18:20) (CCN27).
10. Not to hearken to one who prophesies in the name of an idol (Deut. 13:4) (CCN22).
11. Not to lead the children of Israel astray to idolatry (Ex. 23:13) (CCN14).
12. Not to entice an Israelite to idolatry (Deut. 13:12) (CCN23).
13. To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3) (affirmative).
14. Not to love the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN24).
15. Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN25).
16. Not to save the enticer from capital punishment, but to stand by at his execution (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
17. A person whom he attempted to entice to idolatry shall not urge pleas for the acquittal of the enticer (Deut. 13:9) (CCN26).
18. A person whom he attempted to entice shall not refrain from giving evidence of the enticer's guilt, if he has such evidence (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
19. Not to swear by an idol to its worshipers, nor cause them to swear by it (Ex. 23:13) (CCN13).
20. Not to turn one's attention to idolatry (Lev. 19:4) (CCN16).
21. Not to adopt the institutions of idolaters nor their customs (Lev. 18:3; Lev. 20:23) (CCN21).
22. Not to pass a child through the fire to Molech (Lev. 18:21) (negative).
23. Not to suffer any one practicing witchcraft to live (Ex. 22:17) (negative).
24. Not to practice onein (observing times or seasons as favorable or unfavorable, using astrology) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN166).
25. Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN165).
26. Not to consult ovoth (ghosts) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN170).
27. Not to consult yid'onim (wizards) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN171).
28. Not to practice kisuf (magic using herbs, stones and objects that people use) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN168).
29. Not to practice kessem (a general term for magical practices) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN167).
30. Not to practice the art of a chover chaver (casting spells over snakes and scorpions) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN169).
31. Not to enquire of an ob (a ghost) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN172).
32. Not to seek the maytim (dead) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN174).
33. Not to enquire of a yid'oni (wizard) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN173).
34. Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:27) (CCN177).
35. Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176).
36. Not to cut oneself or make incisions in one's flesh in grief, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1) (CCN28).
37. Not to tattoo the body like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28) (CCN163).
38. Not to make a bald spot for the dead (Deut. 14:1) (CCN164).
39. Not to plant a tree for worship (Deut. 16:21) (negative).
40. Not to set up a pillar (for worship) (Deut. 16:22) (CCN162).
41. Not to show favor to idolaters (Deut. 7:2) (CCN20).
42. Not to make a covenant with the seven (Canaanite, idolatrous) nations (Ex. 23:32; Deut. 7:2) (negative).
43. Not to settle idolaters in our land (Ex. 23:33) (negative) (CCI26).
44. To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).
45. Not to rebuild a city that has been led astray to idolatry (Deut. 13:17) (negative).
46. Not to make use of the property of city that has been so led astray (Deut. 13:18) (negative).

Id suggest these laws create the very core of prejudice , religiously instilled generation to generation in fact is there duty to be prejudice with a passion or they dis obey god .
Judaism could remove these laws if they chose today is 2016 ?
This law in particular
Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176). Was added at a later date , is proof it can be changed .

You call me prejudice cause my grandad cleaned the maggots out of the wounds of those survivors of the holocaust ?
To change my religion to Judaism I'm required to hate my christian mother and father and family , all Hindus and most of Islam.
Is to much hatred to even consider conversion

 

[Daniel108]

And also with you
I should be grateful you half understand , I am )
However you mistake my contempt for the mindset , laws , prejudices that pollute Christianity , Judaism and Islam as prejudices . ?
Prejudice the very core of prejudices ongoing , in its ugliest form can be seen right here
A sample of the 613

1. Not to make a graven image; neither to make it oneself nor to have it made by others (Ex. 20:4) (CCN9).
2. Not to make any figures for ornament, even if they are not worshipped (Ex. 20:20) (CCN144).
3. Not to make idols even for others (Ex. 34:17; Lev. 19:4) (CCN10).
4. Not to use the ornament of any object of idolatrous worship (Deut. 7:25) (CCN17).
5. Not to make use of an idol or its accessory objects, offerings, or libations (Deut. 7:26) (CCN18). See Grape Products.
6. Not to drink wine of idolaters (Deut. 32:38) (CCN15). See Grape Products.
7. Not to worship an idol in the way in which it is usually worshipped (Ex. 20:5) (CCN12).
8. Not to bow down to an idol, even if that is not its mode of worship (Ex. 20:5) (CCN11).
9. Not to prophesy in the name of an idol (Ex. 23:13; Deut. 18:20) (CCN27).
10. Not to hearken to one who prophesies in the name of an idol (Deut. 13:4) (CCN22).
11. Not to lead the children of Israel astray to idolatry (Ex. 23:13) (CCN14).
12. Not to entice an Israelite to idolatry (Deut. 13:12) (CCN23).
13. To destroy idolatry and its appurtenances (Deut. 12:2-3) (affirmative).
14. Not to love the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN24).
15. Not to give up hating the enticer to idolatry (Deut. 13:9) (CCN25).
16. Not to save the enticer from capital punishment, but to stand by at his execution (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
17. A person whom he attempted to entice to idolatry shall not urge pleas for the acquittal of the enticer (Deut. 13:9) (CCN26).
18. A person whom he attempted to entice shall not refrain from giving evidence of the enticer's guilt, if he has such evidence (Deut. 13:9) (negative).
19. Not to swear by an idol to its worshipers, nor cause them to swear by it (Ex. 23:13) (CCN13).
20. Not to turn one's attention to idolatry (Lev. 19:4) (CCN16).
21. Not to adopt the institutions of idolaters nor their customs (Lev. 18:3; Lev. 20:23) (CCN21).
22. Not to pass a child through the fire to Molech (Lev. 18:21) (negative).
23. Not to suffer any one practicing witchcraft to live (Ex. 22:17) (negative).
24. Not to practice onein (observing times or seasons as favorable or unfavorable, using astrology) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN166).
25. Not to practice nachesh (doing things based on signs and portents; using charms and incantations) (Lev. 19:26) (CCN165).
26. Not to consult ovoth (ghosts) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN170).
27. Not to consult yid'onim (wizards) (Lev. 19:31) (CCN171).
28. Not to practice kisuf (magic using herbs, stones and objects that people use) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN168).
29. Not to practice kessem (a general term for magical practices) (Deut. 18:10) (CCN167).
30. Not to practice the art of a chover chaver (casting spells over snakes and scorpions) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN169).
31. Not to enquire of an ob (a ghost) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN172).
32. Not to seek the maytim (dead) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN174).
33. Not to enquire of a yid'oni (wizard) (Deut. 18:11) (CCN173).
34. Not to remove the entire beard, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:27) (CCN177).
35. Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176).
36. Not to cut oneself or make incisions in one's flesh in grief, like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28; Deut. 14:1) (CCN28).
37. Not to tattoo the body like the idolaters (Lev. 19:28) (CCN163).
38. Not to make a bald spot for the dead (Deut. 14:1) (CCN164).
39. Not to plant a tree for worship (Deut. 16:21) (negative).
40. Not to set up a pillar (for worship) (Deut. 16:22) (CCN162).
41. Not to show favor to idolaters (Deut. 7:2) (CCN20).
42. Not to make a covenant with the seven (Canaanite, idolatrous) nations (Ex. 23:32; Deut. 7:2) (negative).
43. Not to settle idolaters in our land (Ex. 23:33) (negative) (CCI26).
44. To slay the inhabitants of a city that has become idolatrous and burn that city (Deut. 13:16-17) (affirmative).
45. Not to rebuild a city that has been led astray to idolatry (Deut. 13:17) (negative).
46. Not to make use of the property of city that has been so led astray (Deut. 13:18) (negative).

Id suggest these laws create the very core of prejudice , religiously instilled generation to generation in fact is there duty to be prejudice with a passion or they dis obey god .
Judaism could remove these laws if they chose today is 2016 ?
This law in particular
Not to round the corners of the head, as the idolatrous priests do (Lev. 19:27) (CCN176). Was added at a later date , is proof it can be changed .

You call me prejudice cause my grandad cleaned the maggots out of the wounds of those survivors of the holocaust ?
To change my religion to Judaism I'm required to hate my christian mother and father and family , all Hindus and most of Islam.
Is to much hatred to even consider conversion

Shalom aleichem SFTT,

I am sorry that I used the word prejudice. For me it only means that we are all conditioned by our earlier experiences so we have a very particular point of view, and emotional reactions toward certain subjects. I hope to be a better person as my life progresses, and hope that you can forgive my present imperfections.

I agree with you that there are things in Jewish Law that are not appropriate and could be removed, while others-- truly from God-- should remain. Not every Jew will agree with me, but, in my opinion, we all have the right to believe as we choose. If we are to end hatred and violence in the world, isn't it a good idea to show respect for others, no matter what their nationalities, religions, or ethnicities? Aren't we all sharing this same good Earth that we live upon?

It's my hope that we can all find ways to live together in peace and understanding. Afterall, isn't that the basic essence of all religions?

Peace my brother.