Is Jesus God?

[katiemygirl]

Well, he didnt pre-exist. I think that is the point your having trouble with. "Because" you believe in something that the bible does not teach, your changing the meaning of the words. Did God talk through Jesus before he was born? No, Hebrews tells us that. He spoke through the prophets. I find that alittle strange if Jesus was alive before he was born. How come Mary or prophets were told things like that. That Jesus pre-existed? David wasnt told that in 2 Sam 7. Or Mary in Luke 1. Something to think about, eh?

This is so like you moorea, to walk away from a verse you cannot explain.

Jesus said, "before Abraham was born, (ego eimi, I exist) I am."

Ego eimi = I exist. Look it up.

That is precisely what the verse says, and YOU CAN'T explain it.

 

[moorea944]

This is so like you moorea, to walk away from a verse you cannot explain.

Jesus said, "before Abraham was born, (ego eimi, I exist) I am."

Ego eimi = I exist. Look it up.

That is precisely what the verse says, and YOU CAN'T explain it.

I did explain it. Many times. And it's so like you also to say things like that. Are you afraid of something? No one is walking away. Esp, me. You cant comprehend that Jesus is is the son of God, born a man, like us, same nature. God was his father, his mother Mary. But you say, Jesus is God the son.....

Jesus even says he's from the seed of David. He also says he is the son of man. He was born a man so he could "overcome" sin. Which he did. You put him in as a God. What temptations does a God have? None. Doesnt make sense, does it. Of course it doesnt....

Look at Romans 8 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

Heb 2 "For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death,"

I know that when you read verses like those you dismiss them because they go against your beliefs. But I dont. I dont read anywhere that Jesus is God. But.... I read verses like these that tells us that he was like us.

 

[moorea944]

I would speculate that a Jewish audience might hear a term like "Son of Man" and recall ...

Daniel 7
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

If so, then "Son of Man" means "Divine-Messiah". (The 'one like a son of man' in Daniel is worshiped.)

What would "son of Man" be? Jesus wanted to tell us that he was like us. He had to be the son of God and the son of Man.

He had to be the Son of God because no man left to himself had or could achieve spotless righteousness as required by God as the basis for forgiveness. Perfection was attained by Jesus because 1. he inherited from his father a unique capacity for spiritual things, and 2. he was given unhindered access to God and he chose to accept it. Sonship of the Father conveyed an insight, an intimacy with his God, an unequalled knowledge of what was in man, fitting him eninently to be the Saviour - if only he chose to be so. Sonship did not make him sinless, but made sinlessness possible.

He had to be the son of man in order to inherit the consequences of Adam's transgreesion, a weak and mortal nature prone to sin, so that he might condemn sin. He had to be tempted in all points like us and yet be sinless in order to be the Saviour. Sin could only be condemned by one possessing the same flesh wit its tendency to sin.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus and God ... the First and Last ... the Alpha and Omega

Revelation 22
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

v.13 Clearly teaches that Jesus is First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. This is not a claim that any man can make.
v.16 Jesus is the "root" of David ... the Davidic King was established by Jesus (God chose Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and anointed David).
Jesus is the "offspring" of David ... who but God could be the founder of a dynasty and its last, eternal member.
v.20 In case there was any doubt, v.12 opens with "I am coming soon" and v.20 repeats "I am coming soon" followed by "come, Lord Jesus"


Isaiah 41:4
Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—with the first of them
and with the last—I am he.”

v.4 God claims to be tho one who controls generations from first to last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the God of the house of David.


Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

v.6 God alone is the First and Last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the First and Last. For both to be true, Jesus must be God.


Isaiah 48:12-13
12 “Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

v.12 The 'First and Last' called Israel (that would be God who called Israel)
v.13 The 'First and Last' made the Heavens and Earth ... from John 1, that would be Jesus, the Word.
Jesus, the Word, the 'First and Last' must either be God or a blasphemer. The Jews understood what he was saying and wanted to stone him because they rejected his words.

 

[katiemygirl]

Jesus and God ... the First and Last ... the Alpha and Omega

Revelation 22
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

v.13 Clearly teaches that Jesus is First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. This is not a claim that any man can make.
v.16 Jesus is the "root" of David ... the Davidic King was established by Jesus (God chose Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and anointed David).
Jesus is the "offspring" of David ... who but God could be the founder of a dynasty and its last, eternal member.
v.20 In case there was any doubt, v.12 opens with "I am coming soon" and v.20 repeats "I am coming soon" followed by "come, Lord Jesus"


Isaiah 41:4
Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—with the first of them
and with the last—I am he.”

v.4 God claims to be tho one who controls generations from first to last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the God of the house of David.


Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

v.6 God alone is the First and Last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the First and Last. For both to be true, Jesus must be God.


Isaiah 48:12-13
12 “Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

v.12 The 'First and Last' called Israel (that would be God who called Israel)
v.13 The 'First and Last' made the Heavens and Earth ... from John 1, that would be Jesus, the Word.
Jesus, the Word, the 'First and Last' must either be God or a blasphemer. The Jews understood what he was saying and wanted to stone him because they rejected his words.

Amen! Well said!

Isaiah 44:6 God alone is the First and Last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the First and Last. For both to be true, Jesus must be God.

Isaiah 48:12-13

v.12 The 'First and Last' called Israel (that would be God who called Israel)
v.13 The 'First and Last' made the Heavens and Earth ... from John 1, that would be Jesus, the Word.

Jesus, the Word, the 'First and Last' must either be God or a blasphemer. The Jews understood what he was saying and wanted to stone him because they rejected his words.

And therein lies the crux of the matter!

Thanks for posting this atpollard!

 

[Deeje]

In Matthew 16, Jesus asked His disciple who people thought the son of man was.

He asked Peter, Who do you say that I am?"

Who do you, deeje, say that He is?

Who did Peter say he was...God?

No I believe he said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Matt 16:16]

This is what I also believe.

Where in all of the Bible does it ever say that Jesus is "the Son of the living God" and mean that he is Almighty God? That is an assumption, forced into ambiguous verses, not a stated fact.

Didn't Jesus himself say that his Father was "the only true God"? [John 17:3] He did not include himself in that statement but said he was "sent forth" by his Father.

Jesus is called God's "servant"....how can one supposedly equal part of God be a "servant" to the other? [Acts 3:13; 4:27-30] "The God" is a servant of no one.

Didn't the apostles say that "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

When you promote John 1:1 you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the word "god" (theos) as used in the Greek scriptures and in that one verse. There are two "gods" (or "mighty ones") mentioned there, distinguished by the use of the definite article (THE "ho") Two divine beings are mentioned, not three. Only one of those is THE God....and it isn't the Logos. The Logos was "with" THE God "in the beginning". THE God had no beginning. John 1:1 isn't saying what you think it does.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Deeje, post: 4563072, member: 18814"]Who did Peter say he was...God?

No I believe he said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” [Matt 16:16]

Good! That's a start.

So tell me, exactly what does it mean to be the Son of the living God?

Jesus is called God's "servant"....how can one supposedly equal part of God be a "servant" to the other? [Acts 3:13; 4:27-30] "The God" is a servant of no one.

Paul explains it better than I ever could in Phil. 2.

6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

Paul says Jesus is in the very "nature" of God. What does that mean?

Paul also said Jesus didn't consider his equality with God something to be used to his advantage. Why did Paul say that?

And why do you think Paul wrote in Colossians 2:9 "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form," if Jesus wasn't deity?

Didn't the apostles say that "For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist."

Yes. Have you read this passage in context? Please explain who the so-called gods and lords are. I hope you're not equating our one Lord Jesus Christ with them.

When you promote John 1:1 you demonstrate a complete lack of
understanding of the word "god" (theos) as used in the Greek scriptures and in that one verse. There are two "gods" (or "mighty ones") mentioned there, distinguished by the use of the definite article (THE "ho") Two divine beings are mentioned, not three. Only one of those is THE God....and it isn't the Logos. The Logos was "with" THE God "in the beginning". THE God had no beginning. John 1:1 isn't saying what you think it does.

Are you saying you know more about the Koine Greek language than the world's greatest Greek scholars who are responsible for translating 99.999% of our numerous English Bibles? Are you suggesting these men lack understanding? They all seem to agree with my understanding. I suggest you post your Greek language credentials for all to see.

 

[atpollard]

When you promote John 1:1 you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of the word "god" (theos) as used in the Greek scriptures and in that one verse. There are two "gods" (or "mighty ones") mentioned there, distinguished by the use of the definite article (THE "ho") Two divine beings are mentioned, not three. Only one of those is THE God....and it isn't the Logos. The Logos was "with" THE God "in the beginning". THE God had no beginning. John 1:1 isn't saying what you think it does.

And yet, it appears to be a 'complete lack of understanding' shared by teams of expert translators stretching back centuries. Note the capitalization by all these diverse teams of Greek scholars:

John 1:1
(KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, HCSB, NASB, RSV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
(NLT) In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NET) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Sorry, I choose to trust them rather than you.
It says what it says ... that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God is sort of the whole point of the Gospel of John. That is why John placed it in the beginning as the filter through which all other events must be understood. If you miss that point, you really will not get the rest of John.

YMMV

 

[Deeje]

And yet, it appears to be a 'complete lack of understanding' shared by teams of expert translators stretching back centuries. Note the capitalization by all these diverse teams of Greek scholars:

John 1:1
(KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, HCSB, NASB, RSV, ASV, YLT, DBY, WEB) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
(NLT) In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NET) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

Sorry, I choose to trust them rather than you.
It says what it says ... that Jesus is the Word and the Word is God is sort of the whole point of the Gospel of John. That is why John placed it in the beginning as the filter through which all other events must be understood. If you miss that point, you really will not get the rest of John.

YMMV

Since they were all part of Christendom, then I suppose that their scholarship would support Christendom's views in their renderings? Why would that be surprising?
Most used the work of the same biased scholars.

And since there were no capitals used in original Greek, they are put there by translators.

Look at this verse in a Greek Interlinear and see for yourself. The definite article (the) is used for God, but not for Jesus as the Word. (Greek in red)

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos" (Mounce Interlinear)

You can see clearly that unless you highlight the fact that the definite article (the "ho") is only placed before the first "God" (theos) then it loses a lot in the translation. That little word "ho" makes all the difference and yet in English, it is conveniently left out. The LOGOS is NOT "THE God"...but was "with the God".

John 1:18 confirms this, saying that "no man has ever seen God"...yet how many saw Jesus Christ? It also calls Jesus "the only begotten god". The true God is not begotten. He is the Begetter of his divine son. The son is a creation, (monogenes) "only begotten" of his Father.

Rev 3:14 in the Interlinear calls Jesus: "the ho faithful pistos and kai true alēthinos Witness martys, · ho the ho Beginning archē of ho God’ s theos creation ktisis, · ho has legō this hode to say legō:

This states that Jesus was the "beginning of God's creation".

You can see again that the definite article "ho" is translated "the" except where it is used in relation to God. Is this an oversight or a deliberate attempt to mislead the readers into a false notion about THE God and his created son? I know what I think the evidence is telling me.

Be careful where you place your trust....the Jews of Jesus' day put their trust in their scholars too...and look where it got them.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I don't know Jesus' reasons for calling Himself son of man. Like you, I can only speculate. Maybe He wanted to show His humanity.

I do know that Jesus referring to Himself as the son of man does not prove He is not God.

We know from Phil. 2 that Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;"

You said Jesus "claimed" to be over 1800 years old. Do you think Jesus lied? Why would Jesus say, "before Abraham was born, I am?"

Good evening! Hope you're doing well.
Let me take each comment separately, ok?

"I don't know Jesus' reasons for calling Himself son of man. Like you, I can only speculate. Maybe He wanted to show His humanity."

I appreciate your honest reply and candor. You're not alone, many aren't aware of this. As you're aware, Jesus was very often trying to get the Jews to think about and reason on the Scriptural prophecies dealing with the Messiah, so they could prove to themselves and understand that these prophecies were applicable to Him. In this instance, and others, where He called himself the Son of man, He was trying get them to think about Daniel 7:13-14, another passage dealing with him being given kingly authority.

"I do know that Jesus referring to Himself as the son of man does not prove He is not God. "

No, but if Jesus was intent on having them believe he was God, He wouldn't have used such confusing, ambiguous appellations. He wanted them to develop faith in Him only as the Messiah, sent by God, not as God.


"We know from Phil. 2 that Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;""

Most translations render this phrase as, "in the form of God", and He was; before He came to Earth, he was a Spirit.

As for the next part,"did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage," I'm sorry, but the NIV renders this, nowhere near how it's stated in Greek! The verb "harpagmon" was used by the Apostle Paul here, and it means "grasping for," "snatching," or "seize." It NEVER is used to indicate 'holding on to something'. The implication of the real meaning is obvious: Paul was saying Jesus "did not consider equality with God something to be grasping for." A far cry from "holding on to" something, let alone "something to be used to his own advantage"!

Looking at a Greek Interlinear text will back this up.


"You said Jesus "claimed" to be over 1800 years old. Do you think Jesus lied? Why would Jesus say, "before Abraham was born, I am?""

Oh, no, not at all. No doubt, He was the one whom God was speaking to when God said, "Let us make man in our image." So, definitely, he was alive then. But then, so were the Angels....they were there when God founded the Earth, according to Job 38:7.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

We agree Jesus is the divine Son of God.

What exactly does it mean to be the divine Son of God?

Adam was a "son of God", also. And being created perfect, he was divine, also.....though after he sinned and became imperfect, he lost his holy, divine nature.

Same for the Angels, the ones who have kept their integrity.

 

[moorea944]

Jesus and God ... the First and Last ... the Alpha and Omega

Revelation 22
12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.
18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.”
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.

v.13 Clearly teaches that Jesus is First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. This is not a claim that any man can make.
v.16 Jesus is the "root" of David ... the Davidic King was established by Jesus (God chose Abram, Isaac, Jacob, Judah and anointed David).
Jesus is the "offspring" of David ... who but God could be the founder of a dynasty and its last, eternal member.
v.20 In case there was any doubt, v.12 opens with "I am coming soon" and v.20 repeats "I am coming soon" followed by "come, Lord Jesus"


Isaiah 41:4
Who has done this and carried it through,
calling forth the generations from the beginning?
I, the LORD—with the first of them
and with the last—I am he.”

v.4 God claims to be tho one who controls generations from first to last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the God of the house of David.


Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

v.6 God alone is the First and Last. From Revelation 22, Jesus is the First and Last. For both to be true, Jesus must be God.


Isaiah 48:12-13
12 “Listen to me, Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.

v.12 The 'First and Last' called Israel (that would be God who called Israel)
v.13 The 'First and Last' made the Heavens and Earth ... from John 1, that would be Jesus, the Word.
Jesus, the Word, the 'First and Last' must either be God or a blasphemer. The Jews understood what he was saying and wanted to stone him because they rejected his words.

Clearly teaches that Jesus is First and Last, Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. This is not a claim that any man can make.

Keep in mind that Jesus was now in heaven and immortal when he said that. Also keep in mind that he received the revelation by God when he was in heaven and not before.

 

[moorea944]

Good evening! Hope you're doing well.
Let me take each comment separately, ok?

"I don't know Jesus' reasons for calling Himself son of man. Like you, I can only speculate. Maybe He wanted to show His humanity."

I appreciate your honest reply and candor. You're not alone, many aren't aware of this. As you're aware, Jesus was very often trying to get the Jews to think about and reason on the Scriptural prophecies dealing with the Messiah, so they could prove to themselves and understand that these prophecies were applicable to Him. In this instance, and others, where He called himself the Son of man, He was trying get them to think about Daniel 7:13-14, another passage dealing with him being given kingly authority.

"I do know that Jesus referring to Himself as the son of man does not prove He is not God. "

No, but if Jesus was intent on having them believe he was God, He wouldn't have used such confusing, ambiguous appellations. He wanted them to develop faith in Him only as the Messiah, sent by God, not as God.


"We know from Phil. 2 that Jesus, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;""

Most translations render this phrase as, "in the form of God", and He was; before He came to Earth, he was a Spirit.

As for the next part,"did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage," I'm sorry, but the NIV renders this, nowhere near how it's stated in Greek! The verb "harpagmon" was used by the Apostle Paul here, and it means "grasping for," "snatching," or "seize." It NEVER is used to indicate 'holding on to something'. The implication of the real meaning is obvious: Paul was saying Jesus "did not consider equality with God something to be grasping for." A far cry from "holding on to" something, let alone "something to be used to his own advantage"!

Looking at a Greek Interlinear text will back this up.


"You said Jesus "claimed" to be over 1800 years old. Do you think Jesus lied? Why would Jesus say, "before Abraham was born, I am?""

Oh, no, not at all. No doubt, He was the one whom God was speaking to when God said, "Let us make man in our image." So, definitely, he was alive then. But then, so were the Angels....they were there when God founded the Earth, according to Job 38:7.

Oh, no, not at all. No doubt, He was the one whom God was speaking to when God said, "Let us make man in our image." So, definitely, he was alive then. But then, so were the Angels....they were there when God founded the Earth, according to Job 38:7.

"And let us...." is not Jesus, he wasnt born yet. It was God and the angels. The angels, said in Psalms, are the fingers of God. The messengers too. And Elohim said.... In Hebrew that is God manifest in a multitude. Plural. Elohim in scripture can be a few things. El, Eloah, or Elohim.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm sorry, I forgot to address this comment:

"Seems like Apostle Paul thought Jesus was equal to God. "

There are many passages written by Paul that show otherwise, but here are just two......


1 Corinthians 8:6, and 1 Corinthians 11:3. Keep in mind, both were written years after Jesus was resurrected. (I know some trinitarians, in trying to reason with them from Jesus' own words in the Gospels, will say, "Well, Jesus was limited by his human nature." This can't apply with these Scriptures. Neither can it apply to what the Apostles and other Christians prayed at Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30; although they offered this prayer after Jesus was resurrected, and once again a Spirit Being, they weren't praying to Jesus....they were praying to God, and referring to Jesus as God's "Holy Servant.")

 

[Hockeycowboy]

"And let us...." is not Jesus, he wasnt born yet. It was God and the angels. The angels, said in Psalms, are the fingers of God. The messengers too. And Elohim said.... In Hebrew that is God manifest in a multitude. Plural. Elohim in scripture can be a few things. El, Eloah, or Elohim.

Well, my friend, we agree on a lot of things, but we'll just have to disagree on this. Please read John 17:5...."now glorify me in turn, Father, alongside yourself with the glory that I did have alongside you before the world was."

He remembered his pre-human existence!

Also, many times he said he was "sent" to the Earth.....you have to already exist to be sent somewhere. As further proof, he told the unbelieving Jews in John 8, "I am from the realms above..."

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

A fine hair to split, but even if Jesus would never claim that he was God ... Clearly the author (let's call him John) was quite capable of both believing that Jesus was God and saying so.

You think John thought Jesus was God, and said so? Then why would John, in only a few verses away from Jn 1:1, say that "no man has seen God at any time"?

This context fits the rendering of Jn 1:1 in these versions:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

This is a quoted excerpt from:
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/06/jws-are-correct-about-john-11-jesus-is.html

 

[atpollard]

You think John thought Jesus was God, and said so? Then why would John, in only a few verses away from Jn 1:1, say that "no man has seen God at any time"?

This context fits the rendering of Jn 1:1 in these versions:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

This is a quoted excerpt from:
http://catholicnick.blogspot.com/2010/06/jws-are-correct-about-john-11-jesus-is.html

Terrific, now I need to learn German to read commentaries on the correct translation of Greek into English.

Let me address the easier point instead:

"Then why would John, in only a few verses away from Jn 1:1, say that "no man has seen God at any time"?"

John 1:18
"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

Note the next word after you stopped quoting is 'but' followed by a clear proclamation of the deity of Jesus.

[Let me guess, if I only read German, they would explain that he is really a god ... like in Hinduism.]

 

[atpollard]

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

OK, I was able to locate the first translation on your list. It was the work of ONE MAN, not a team, never saw print in his lifetime, and was quickly rejected and replaced with another translation by his Unitarian Church very shortly after it did see publication.
Are the other translations mentioned of similar stature?

 

[katiemygirl]

Adam was a "son of God", also. And being created perfect, he was divine, also.....though after he sinned and became imperfect, he lost his holy, divine nature.

Same for the Angels, the ones who have kept their integrity.

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That makes Him very unique, wouldn't you say?

Where does the Bible say Adam was created divine (deity)? For that matter where does it say Adam was created perfect? If he were perfect, as deity (God, Jesus) is, how could he have sinned?

Do you think Adam was a son of God in the same way Jesus was the ONLY begotten Son of God?

What exactly do you think it means to be the only begotten Son of God?

 

[katiemygirl]

Well, my friend, we agree on a lot of things, but we'll just have to disagree on this. Please read John 17:5...."now glorify me in turn, Father, alongside yourself with the glory that I did have alongside you before the world was."

He remembered his pre-human existence!

Also, many times he said he was "sent" to the Earth.....you have to already exist to be sent somewhere. As further proof, he told the unbelieving Jews in John 8, "I am from the realms above..."

Take care.

Bingo!! I'm happy to see we agree that Jesus existed before he was born in Bethlehem. John 17:5 spells it out clearly.