Atheism or atheisms?

[Bunyip]

Why not?

They are propositions, your beliefs, and positive propositions to boot.

I have done so, there are several threads on those topics.

 

[Curious George]

I have done so, there are several threads on those topics.

I believe I have read them. I don't recall seeing any proof.

 

[Jumi]

You can start by proving what you do believe.

What do you want proven from my "beliefs"?

 

[Curious George]

What do you want proven?

Me specifically, nothing.

I was answering your question.

 

[Bunyip]

I believe I have read them. I don't recall seeing any proof.

Of course not. How could there be?

 

[Laika]

Well yes, of course. Are you have trouble accepting that? Atheism is the default and bears no burden of proof.

No. I do not accept that atheism is the default position.

There are about 7.1 billion people on the planet (as of july 2013). of those, only 1.1 billion (or 15.35%) are "not" religious (so that includes agnostics etc, in addition to atheists). The estimated number of atheists is about 2% (that works out about about 142 million people).

Historically, the number of people who have ever lived comes to 108 billion. As Atheism has only gained widespread currency since the 19th century, it is more than reasonable to assume that over three quaters of them were religious. (edit: it's easily much higher). Then the definition of what constitutes 'athiesm' kicks in. As we've talked about before, as communism has a highly debatable position in the definition of atheism, that means that when communism was at it's hieght in the 1950's with about 3 billion people. it won't be the whole figure, but it gives you a very rough estimate and shows you how smal it is relative to the total of 108 billion. whilst it is generous to assume even that 3 billion people in the communist bloc were all atheists, if you exclude them from the total, you are still left with a tiny fraction of the human population THAT EVER LIVED that qualify as 'atheists'. at most it could be 10 billion that aren't religious (including agnostics) but It's difficult to see how it could ever get that far, especially if communists and people living in communist countries are excluded from the total.

It is therefore an extraordinary cliam that atheism is the default position when the overwhelming majority of mankind has through out history been religious. The default position for what people believe based on the figures, is religious not atheist. How it is reasonable for say with such conviction that less than 150,000,000 people are right and the other 6,950,000,000 are wrong. Let alone dealing with the probably 102,000,000,000 people who are not included in this figure.

So how the hell is atheism the default position when only 2% of the world's population today are atheists?

 

[Bunyip]

No. I do not accept that atheism is the default position.

There are about 7.1 billion people on the planet (as of july 2013). of those, only 1.1 billion (or 15.35%) are "not" religious (so that includes agnostics etc, in addition to atheists). The estimated number of atheists is about 2% (that works out about about 142 million people).

Historically, the number of people who have ever lived comes to 108 billion. As Atheism has only gained widespread currency since the 19th century, it is more than reasonable to assume that over three quaters of them were religious. Then the definition of what constitutes 'athiesm' kicks in. As we've talked about before, as communism has a highly debatable position in the definition of atheism, that means that when communism was at it's hieght in the 1950's with about 3 billion people. it won't be the whole figure, but it gives you a very rough estimate and shows you how smal it is relative to the total of 108 billion. whilst it is generous to assume even that 3 billion people in the communist bloc were all atheists, if you exclude them from the total, you are still left with a tiny fraction of the human population THAT EVER LIVED that qualify as 'atheists'. at most it could be 10 billion that aren't religious (including agnostics) but It's difficult to see how it could ever get that far, especially if communists people living in communist countries are excluded from the total.

It is therefore an extraordinary cliam that atheism is the default position when the overwhelming majority of mankind has through out history been religious. The default position for what people believe based on the figures, is religious not atheist. How it is reasonable for say with such conviction that less than 150,000,000 people are right and the other 6,950,000,000 are wrong. Let alone dealing with the probably 102,000,000,000 people who are not included in this figure.

So how the hell is atheism the default position when only 2% of the world's population today are atheists?

What has the proportion got to do with whether atheism is the default or not?

 

[Laika]

What has the proportion got to do with whether atheism is the default or not?

If the default position of what people believe is religion, how can someone claim the default position be atheism?

 

[Koldo]

No. I do not accept that atheism is the default position.

There are about 7.1 billion people on the planet (as of july 2013). of those, only 1.1 billion (or 15.35%) are "not" religious (so that includes agnostics etc, in addition to atheists). The estimated number of atheists is about 2% (that works out about about 142 million people).

Historically, the number of people who have ever lived comes to 108 billion. As Atheism has only gained widespread currency since the 19th century, it is more than reasonable to assume that over three quaters of them were religious. (edit: it's easily much higher). Then the definition of what constitutes 'athiesm' kicks in. As we've talked about before, as communism has a highly debatable position in the definition of atheism, that means that when communism was at it's hieght in the 1950's with about 3 billion people. it won't be the whole figure, but it gives you a very rough estimate and shows you how smal it is relative to the total of 108 billion. whilst it is generous to assume even that 3 billion people in the communist bloc were all atheists, if you exclude them from the total, you are still left with a tiny fraction of the human population THAT EVER LIVED that qualify as 'atheists'. at most it could be 10 billion that aren't religious (including agnostics) but It's difficult to see how it could ever get that far, especially if communists and people living in communist countries are excluded from the total.

It is therefore an extraordinary cliam that atheism is the default position when the overwhelming majority of mankind has through out history been religious. The default position for what people believe based on the figures, is religious not atheist. How it is reasonable for say with such conviction that less than 150,000,000 people are right and the other 6,950,000,000 are wrong. Let alone dealing with the probably 102,000,000,000 people who are not included in this figure.

So how the hell is atheism the default position when only 2% of the world's population today are atheists?

What is meant by 'default' is 'default at birth', not 'default culturally'.

 

[Jumi]

If the default position of what people believe is religion, how can someone claim the default position be atheism?

The opposite of atheism isn't religion.

 

[Jumi]

What is meant by 'default' is 'default at birth', not 'default culturally'.

Or what people default to if they don't have belief in any of the gods.

 

[Laika]

What is meant by 'default' is 'default at birth', not 'default culturally'.

So how did 98% of people born without any belief in a god reach a conclusion for which there is no evidence and which does not satisfy a burden of proof?

 

[Koldo]

So how did 98% of people born without any belief in a god reach a conclusion for which there is no evidence and which does not satisfy a burden of proof?

Cultural upbringing. Indoctrination. Proselytism.

 

[Curious George]

Or what people default to if they don't have belief in any of the gods.

Lol that is flagrant question begging.
You said the equivalent of atheism is what people default to when they are atheist.

 

[Laika]

Cultural upbringing. Indoctrination. Proselytism.

Jesus wasn't born a Christian. Muhammah wasn't born a muslim. Buddha wasn't born a buddhist. these were new belief systems, and they weren't stupid people. if the default position was always atheism, surely they would have figured it out?

At some point, someone, somewhere in a cave, had to say... "there is a god" to all the other stone age atheists and then they believed them. and they kept believing them inspite of the lack of evidence, inspite of the logical fallcieis, inspite of the problem of evil. why has it taken over 10,000 years for for only 150 million people to realise that other 107 billion people were wrong?

what caused religion if there was no proof for it?

 

[Jumi]

Lol that is flagrant question begging.
You said the equivalent of atheism is what people default to when they are atheist.

Yes, when atheism is used in modern sense and not as part of some political ideology. No one defaults to "state atheism" even in Soviet time.

Let's say you are a believer of the god crxasfnewr. Losing belief in crxasfnewr you are back to the default position, not belief in another god such as xrptnef. You can replace crxasfnewr and xrptnef with any group of gods.

 

[Curious George]

Jesus wasn't born a Christian. Muhammah wasn't born a muslim. Buddha wasn't born a buddhist. these were new belief systems, and they weren't stupid people. if the default position was always atheism, surely they would have figured it out?

At some point, someone, somewhere in a cave, had to say... "there is a god" to all the other stone age atheists and then they believed them. and they kept believing them inspite of the lack of evidence, inspite of the logical fallcieis, inspite of the problem of evil. why has it taken over 10,000 years for for only 150 million people to realise that other 107 billion people were wrong?

what caused religion if there was no proof for it?

There is proof(evidence)for it, there is just more proof(evidence) that the religious proof (evidence) is false.

However there is no proof (argument conclusively proving) that god exists or does not exist.

So we all rely on whatever evidences we may to form beliefs which we all have, because beliefs are unavoidable.

 

[Curious George]

Yes, when atheism is used in modern sense and not as part of some political ideology. No one defaults to "state atheism" even in Soviet time.

Let's say you are a believer of the god crxasfnewr. Losing belief in crxasfnewr you are back to the default position, not belief in another god such as xrptnef. You can replace crxasfnewr and xrptnef with any group of gods.

are you proposing that if the pope goes into a coma he will be an atheist?

 

[Jumi]

Jesus wasn't born a Christian. Muhammah wasn't born a muslim. Buddha wasn't born a buddhist. these were new belief systems, and they weren't stupid people. if the default position was always atheism, surely they would have figured it out?

Using people who are thought to be founders of religions isn't perhaps the best example. What they might have believed is open to question, especially Jesus and Buddha on gods.

What do you believe people start out as, before they are taught about theism?

what caused religion if there was no proof for it?

Keep in mind that religion doesn't equal theism.

What I believe is that they had the desire to have an explanation for things that aren't knowns yet. A vocabulary for things to make sense of reality without modern day scientific accuracy. I think it was useful at times and still can be for some people.

 

[Curious George]

Yes, when atheism is used in modern sense and not as part of some political ideology. No one defaults to "state atheism" even in Soviet time.

Let's say you are a believer of the god crxasfnewr. Losing belief in crxasfnewr you are back to the default position, not belief in another god such as xrptnef. You can replace crxasfnewr and xrptnef with any group of gods.

Beliefs are not lost and not replaced except for extreme circumstances. These words you have set forth amount to an equivocation.