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Atheism or atheisms?

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
Another thread about the gods or the lack of ?
To believe or not, traveling the paths of life !
Angels and gods and heavens and such.
So many that believe so much about so little.
I sincerely you all find the end of your travels.
May you all sit on the top of your favorite cloud.
I particular would like to ride on a leprecahn's shoulders,
or maybe feed a baby pink unicorn, or even blue,
it doesn't really matter.
None of it really matters anyway,
but the smell of a night blooming cereus,
or the sun on my back and the clouds in the sky,
that's the stuff that matters.
Bugles in the heavens, not so much !
~
I think I'll have a beer !
~
'mud
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Religious people undoubtedly do try to 'monkey around' with the concept of atheism for ideological reasons, but this doesn't mean that this is the source of all ambiguity as regards the term.

The other source is linguistics.
Our languages are designed to do positive assertions well, not negative ones.
So a theist who confidently makes claims about God thinks that us non theists must be doing so also. Even when we're not.

And atheists do confuse things a bit as well. By saying stuff like "I know that there is no god", when what they mean is "I have solid evidence that there is no god who cares enough about what we humans do or believe to make that clear".
Tom
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
With many people discussing atheism at the moment, it seems to me that atheism as a singular is the wrong way to think about the concept. Atheisms would be more accurate as the word is polysemous.

Atheism in its 'pure' sense is a negative position, although even what it is a negative of is not necessarily as clear cut as many people think. Words rarely exist in this 'pure' sense outside of a dictionary though.

The meaning of 'theism', like almost all words, has nothing to do with any of the letters in the word, the meaning draws from convention and contextual usage only. Adding a prefix doesn't change this, the word undead doesn't mean alive, for example. Unless a word is onomatopoeic, trying to determine its meaning from its letters is not viable.

Meaning doesn't come from a dictionary, it comes from usage in context. The letters have no intrinsic meaning, just convention. This convention is not, and never has been, uniform as regards atheism though, even in the most general sense, and certainly not in contextual usage. It is a word which developed in the context of Western religion and philosophy, and this 'baggage' doesn't disappear just because the world is now more globalised.

There seem to be multiple atheisms, not a singular atheism.

Also meaning is not purely denotative, and what is signified by a word is not necessarily only it's 'standard' meaning. To say a word can be stripped of the context in which it is used when identifying its meaning is somewhat pointless.

The word atheism may (not does) carry various connotations, implicit assumptions and signified meanings that are collected from the context, both grammatical and situational, in which it is used.

"Mauthner admired Meister Eckhart, a fourteenth-century Christian mystic who died in obscure circumstances after being subjected to trial by the Inquisition, as a true atheist, since Eckhart insisted that nothing could be said of God – not even that God existed." The silence of animals, John Gray

"It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon."
Letter from Gorky to Stalin

The atheism of Mauthner and the atheism of Gorky are not the same thing. Gorky's is a doctrine that must be propagated, it forms part of a larger worldview in which Marxism, materialism and atheism all form fundamental tenets. Mauthner's atheism also forms part of a larger worldview, but his is the idea that language cannot capture anything that is unreal, therefore his atheism is founded on a rejection of the concepts of theism, rather than a disbelief or lack of belief.

Gorky sees atheism as a fundamental political stance to be advocated, Mauthner sees it as a subsidiary point within a broader critique of language:

"Mauthner remarked that history of atheism in the West gradually achieves the aim, which is liberating human minds from the power of the word “God”, unknown in the tradition of the East. Every word is entangled in its own history; it is subject to various transformations of its meaning, until it discovers that behind the curtains there are no contents that can be referred to the real outer reality. " Fritz Mauthner's critique of Locke's idea of God. - H. Jakuszko


When someone talks about 'the atheism of Richard Dawkins', it doesn't simply mean what the dictionary says atheism means. When someone says new atheism, it conveys specific meaning, even though new atheism is neither a new or purely atheist ideology. Dawkins' atheism can be evangelical, but other atheisms could not be collocated with 'evangelical' while maintaining conceptual sense.

Dawkins' atheism is forcefully expressed and incorporates anti-theism and a scientific outlook, none of which are intrinsic to atheism, but are communicated from a knowledge of context for those familiar with his ideas, simply through the word atheism.

As such, there exist multiple atheisms, all gaining their meanings from a broader context. This is not from a misuse of language with 'true meaning' being perverted, just the standard use of language in how it transmits meaning.

Atheisms may be of the general kind, the 'dictionary' atheism, or they can be of a specific contextual kind, in which the meaning conveyed by 'atheism/atheist' is not generalisable to the totality of atheism/atheists. Whenever atheism is professed, its meaning can only be interpreted from its usage, not from a normative abstraction.

Is it more useful to think of multiple atheisms that derive meaning from context then, rather than a singular, denotative, atheism that 'just means....'?
I would say that, after listening to countless lectures on this topic from self-declared atheists, the meaning that is most accurate and common is a mere lack of belief in the existence of God. This, of course, does not mean that the atheist necessarily holds the belief that god cannot exist.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
With many people discussing atheism at the moment, it seems to me that atheism as a singular is the wrong way to think about the concept. Atheisms would be more accurate as the word is polysemous.

Atheism in its 'pure' sense is a negative position, although even what it is a negative of is not necessarily as clear cut as many people think. Words rarely exist in this 'pure' sense outside of a dictionary though.

The meaning of 'theism', like almost all words, has nothing to do with any of the letters in the word, the meaning draws from convention and contextual usage only. Adding a prefix doesn't change this, the word undead doesn't mean alive, for example. Unless a word is onomatopoeic, trying to determine its meaning from its letters is not viable.

Meaning doesn't come from a dictionary, it comes from usage in context. The letters have no intrinsic meaning, just convention. This convention is not, and never has been, uniform as regards atheism though, even in the most general sense, and certainly not in contextual usage. It is a word which developed in the context of Western religion and philosophy, and this 'baggage' doesn't disappear just because the world is now more globalised.

There seem to be multiple atheisms, not a singular atheism.

Also meaning is not purely denotative, and what is signified by a word is not necessarily only it's 'standard' meaning. To say a word can be stripped of the context in which it is used when identifying its meaning is somewhat pointless.

The word atheism may (not does) carry various connotations, implicit assumptions and signified meanings that are collected from the context, both grammatical and situational, in which it is used.

"Mauthner admired Meister Eckhart, a fourteenth-century Christian mystic who died in obscure circumstances after being subjected to trial by the Inquisition, as a true atheist, since Eckhart insisted that nothing could be said of God – not even that God existed." The silence of animals, John Gray

"It is furthermore imperative to put the propaganda of atheism on solid ground. You won't achieve much with the weapons of Marx and materialism, as we have seen. Materialism and religion are two different planes and they don't coincide. If a fool speaks from the heavens and the sage from a factory--they won't understand one another. The sage needs to hit the fool with his stick, with his weapon."
Letter from Gorky to Stalin

The atheism of Mauthner and the atheism of Gorky are not the same thing. Gorky's is a doctrine that must be propagated, it forms part of a larger worldview in which Marxism, materialism and atheism all form fundamental tenets. Mauthner's atheism also forms part of a larger worldview, but his is the idea that language cannot capture anything that is unreal, therefore his atheism is founded on a rejection of the concepts of theism, rather than a disbelief or lack of belief.

Gorky sees atheism as a fundamental political stance to be advocated, Mauthner sees it as a subsidiary point within a broader critique of language:

"Mauthner remarked that history of atheism in the West gradually achieves the aim, which is liberating human minds from the power of the word “God”, unknown in the tradition of the East. Every word is entangled in its own history; it is subject to various transformations of its meaning, until it discovers that behind the curtains there are no contents that can be referred to the real outer reality. " Fritz Mauthner's critique of Locke's idea of God. - H. Jakuszko


When someone talks about 'the atheism of Richard Dawkins', it doesn't simply mean what the dictionary says atheism means. When someone says new atheism, it conveys specific meaning, even though new atheism is neither a new or purely atheist ideology. Dawkins' atheism can be evangelical, but other atheisms could not be collocated with 'evangelical' while maintaining conceptual sense.

Dawkins' atheism is forcefully expressed and incorporates anti-theism and a scientific outlook, none of which are intrinsic to atheism, but are communicated from a knowledge of context for those familiar with his ideas, simply through the word atheism.

As such, there exist multiple atheisms, all gaining their meanings from a broader context. This is not from a misuse of language with 'true meaning' being perverted, just the standard use of language in how it transmits meaning.

Atheisms may be of the general kind, the 'dictionary' atheism, or they can be of a specific contextual kind, in which the meaning conveyed by 'atheism/atheist' is not generalisable to the totality of atheism/atheists. Whenever atheism is professed, its meaning can only be interpreted from its usage, not from a normative abstraction.

Is it more useful to think of multiple atheisms that derive meaning from context then, rather than a singular, denotative, atheism that 'just means....'?
"Theism" and "atheism" are both extremely general terms with a multitude of subcategories under them. I fail to see why they shouldn't remain to be this way. It makes perfect sense, as the only requisite depends on belief in the existence of God or gods.
 
the only requisite depends on belief in the existence of God or gods.

Except when it doesn't, as mentioned in the OP.

Agreed.

No one has ever implied it was not.

Never mind implied, I've lost count of the times it has been explicitly said that atheism 'just means...'

Now I agree that the word atheism can be legitimately used in the singular, as I usually use it. It doesn't 'just mean....' anything though, its meaning can only be worked out from context and if its meaning in context isn't the same as what some people claim it 'just means', this is not necessarily due to a misusage of the term.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Meister Eckhart might have been condemned for atheism by theists, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was atheist. The Soviet Communists mostly seemed to be into the ideology and it's parameters dictated in books, basically scripture for Marxist-Leninist theory.

Neither forms are particularly useful, the Inquisitions ideas of who is an atheist in particular are merely excuses for execution, torture, imprisonment. The soviet form, being tied strictly to Communist ideology is mostly extinct and will probably disappear.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Except when it doesn't, as mentioned in the OP.



Never mind implied, I've lost count of the times it has been explicitly said that atheism 'just means...'

Now I agree that the word atheism can be legitimately used in the singular, as I usually use it. It doesn't 'just mean....' anything though, its meaning can only be worked out from context and if its meaning in context isn't the same as what some people claim it 'just means', this is not necessarily due to a misusage of the term.
Well, in the debate forum, I think it is necessary to use the most general form of the term, so as not to make unnecessary and incorrect assumptions. We can all agree that those who identify as atheist all "lack a belief in the existence of God", right? So, it seems prudent to use this definition in this context.

Apart from debate forums, I think you are 100% correct. But, the forum in which we are writing currently certainly demands a general meaning of the term "atheism", imho.
 
Not a theist, sums up context.

Only the context sums up context, why would an abstracted definition sum up context? It only means 'not a theist' when used to mean 'not a theist', which is a legitimate usage, although not one which would find universal agreement. For example, If you read an ancient Greek text where atheist referred to a follower of the wrong gods, an atheist wouldn't be 'not a theist'.

Meister Eckhart might have been condemned for atheism by theists, but that doesn't necessarily mean he was atheist. The Soviet Communists mostly seemed to be into the ideology and it's parameters dictated in books, basically scripture for Marxist-Leninist theory.

Neither forms are particularly useful, the Inquisitions ideas of who is an atheist in particular are merely excuses for execution, torture, imprisonment. The soviet form, being tied strictly to Communist ideology is mostly extinct and will probably disappear.

Mauthner was an atheist who wrote extensively on atheism, but ultimately as part of a larger critique of language from which it cannot be separated. It was he who termed Eckhart an atheist (and he did 'lack belief in the existence of God' which is what atheism 'just means...' too), the Inquisition termed him a heretic. Eckhart certainly wouldn't have considered himself an atheist though, he was a Christian.

Gorky explicitly separated atheism from Marxism and materialism, and asserted that to criticise religion, one must rely on atheism, rather than materialism. Mauthner could not criticise religion with recourse to atheism, only with recourse to language. Yet Gorky saw atheism as a 'weapon' with which to 'hit the fool'. Their atheisms are not compatible, but they are both atheism. One meaning conveys more than what atheism 'just is', and the other is incompatible with what atheism 'just is'.

The terms are perfectly useful in the context in which they are used, they are not useful when trying to craft a universal definition for atheism though and are in many senses atypical. And a historical usage will never die out as long as knowledge of it remains, it will always mean that which it meant in its original context (or perhaps what we think it meant in its original context).

The overall point though is simply that atheism means whatever it means in the context of whenever it is used. And it is useful whenever it conveys meaning which can be discerned from context, not only when it meets an abstract dictionary definition or when it conveys a meaning which is generalisable to all atheists (which no usage ever is anyway).
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
What about when it doesn't mean this though? As per some of the examples I mentioned, or alternatively, before the word even meant this at all. The word seems to have more than one meaning both in contemporary and historical usage.

It can be, and in many cases should be, but this still means there are atheisms. And even when not used with adjectives, it can convey the same meaning as if it had been used with adjectives simply by virtue of the context in which it is used.

Some people would say that individual words mean nothing; meaning only exists at an absolute minimal level of the sentence.

"'Language does not exist; it is an abstractum. That we cannot enter twice the same river,applies also to language." "Language is no object of use,and no tool,it is no object at all, it is nothing but its use. Language is use of language" " Language came into being as a big city, room on room, window on window,flat on flat, house on house,street on street, quarter on quarter. . ." It is here that his insistence on the context comes in. With Frege and Wittgenstein he maintains that the basic unit of meaning is the sentence and that the word gains its meaning from it" On Fritz Mauthner's Critique of Language - Gershon Weiler

I like what have colored in magenta and underlined, the wisdom of Fritz Mauthner is appreciable.
Regards
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If you read an ancient Greek text where atheist referred to a follower of the wrong gods

Context is key.


And ancient peoples definition applies to all today, or just that time period in context?


Today the definition literally means not a theist.


Christians were called atheist by Romans because they did not worship the emperors cults, but we don't let Romans define the term, NOR do we call all Christians atheist because ancient people did.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Only the context sums up context, why would an abstracted definition sum up context? It only means 'not a theist' when used to mean 'not a theist', which is a legitimate usage, although not one which would find universal agreement. For example, If you read an ancient Greek text where atheist referred to a follower of the wrong gods, an atheist wouldn't be 'not a theist'.



Mauthner was an atheist who wrote extensively on atheism, but ultimately as part of a larger critique of language from which it cannot be separated. It was he who termed Eckhart an atheist (and he did 'lack belief in the existence of God' which is what atheism 'just means...' too), the Inquisition termed him a heretic. Eckhart certainly wouldn't have considered himself an atheist though, he was a Christian.

Gorky explicitly separated atheism from Marxism and materialism, and asserted that to criticise religion, one must rely on atheism, rather than materialism. Mauthner could not criticise religion with recourse to atheism, only with recourse to language. Yet Gorky saw atheism as a 'weapon' with which to 'hit the fool'. Their atheisms are not compatible, but they are both atheism. One meaning conveys more than what atheism 'just is', and the other is incompatible with what atheism 'just is'.

The terms are perfectly useful in the context in which they are used, they are not useful when trying to craft a universal definition for atheism though and are in many senses atypical. And a historical usage will never die out as long as knowledge of it remains, it will always mean that which it meant in its original context (or perhaps what we think it meant in its original context).

The overall point though is simply that atheism means whatever it means in the context of whenever it is used. And it is useful whenever it conveys meaning which can be discerned from context, not only when it meets an abstract dictionary definition or when it conveys a meaning which is generalisable to all atheists (which no usage ever is anyway).
Wait ... are we discussing modern context or ancient context? You said that you were concerned how the term is used in context, but is it really reasonable to add in ancient context as well?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Sure. I agree that the "-s" isn't necessary. Atheism is the umbrella for the different types of atheisms, so we don't have to say that someone is part of atheisms, but it's not grammatically incorrect to use the term atheisms (with -s) in a discussion like this, just for the purpose to point out that there are different types.

In discussion about Christianity, it's not grammatically wrong to talk about different kinds of Christianities. There's even a DVD series made by The Great Courses, with Prof Ehrman, about the "Lost Christianities." I can only assume he knows the English language well enough to use it properly.
There's a cardinal rule in English.....
If something sounds wrong, avoid it.
As for this Ehrman fellow, he's using the plural in a particular context.
If it helps him make his point, then it's a good idea.
Even the much derided passive voice has its usefulness at times.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
There have been exhustative threads on RF over the definition of atheism and I have been genuinely taken aback at the sheer feriousity with the insistence that atheism is only lack of belief. I do not share this view. I can only deduce that I am not of the same "atheism" as many of the other atheists on RF and that there are multiple atheisms but I don't quite know where the line is drawn.
Can you give an example of this ferocity? I have seen no such reaction.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

'Atheism' is just a label, arguing about labels gets nowhere - the real issue remains that of evidence for God.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
There's a cardinal rule in English.....
If something sounds wrong, avoid it.
As for this Ehrman fellow, he's using the plural in a particular context.
If it helps him make his point, then it's a good idea.
Even the much derided passive voice has its usefulness at times.
Well, Wiktionary adopted "atheisms" as a plural of "atheism": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/atheisms

Maybe they haven't heard about the cardinal rule...
 
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