Jesus and Paul's teachings, Is there a difference?

[Simplelogic]

Hi Simplelogic,

As I said before, works can only be seen through external means and I cannot blame you why works is very visible—same as Pharisees who displayed their holiness by works. Jesus can see the heart of the people he met. He is the Son of God. You are right that repentance brings Zaccheus salvation because of demonstration of righteousness for repayment. It is not works that saved Zaccheus, for no man can saved by works; but his works did demonstrate that he had placed faith in Christ, and had received righteousness by faith.

If we will base our salvation by works, then the rich would win because they have so much money to do good works.

Thanks

"Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Yeshua was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was going to pass that way. And when Yeshua came to the place, he looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." So he made haste and came down, and received him joyfully. But when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, "He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord. "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor, and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." And Yeshua said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:2-10

It was his acts of repentance, charity, and making things right with those he had cheated that earned him "salvation". The case for works-alone is established here again!

I have yet to find anyone who has put together the picture that Zacchaeus was almost certainly under the influence of John the Baptist's teaching and had been baptized by him. Yeshua knew this, and it was the reason why he called Zacchaeus by name and said ,"today I must stay at your house". Remember, John had come to prepare the way for Yeshua. Notice what John had taught concerning staying out of judgment and fire, as well as what he said to certain "tax collectors".

Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees, Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Luke 3:7-13

Zacchaeus was one of those tax collectors who was there that day. What John had said that day could be interpreted to mean he instructed those who had possessions to give half to the poor. "He who has two... give to him who has none." This is exactly what Zacchaeus had done. And since Zacchaeus had already defrauded others and collected more than what was appropriate, he went and made it right with them by going over and above the requirements of the Law, as found in Leviticus 6:1-5, and restored what he had taken as though he had stolen sheep... a "fourfold" requirement. (Exodus 22:1, and 2 Samuel 12:6) One might even surmise from this that Zacchaeus had made a practice of collecting the excess charge in sheep! Whatever the case, he had made it right, and the point to be made is that both Yeshua and John the Baptist made it very clear that it was works-alone, of loving others through charity as well as treating them the way he would want to be treated, that saved him from fire." http://judaismvschristianity.com/heavenorhell.htm

 

[Yoshua]

Faith is not even mentioned in this text

Nor would the rich win if it were based off of works. See Ezekiel 18

If faith is by believing and trusting God, how much more is the repentance of Zaccheus. He would not do such thing of repayment if he does not have faith in Jesus.

Heb. 11:1-10
1. What is faith? It is the confident assurance that something we want is going to happen. It is the certainty that what we hope for is waiting for us, even though we cannot see it up ahead.
2. Men of God in days of old were famous for their faith.
3. By faith--by believing God--we know that the world and the stars--in fact, all things--were made at God's command; and that they were all made from things that can't be seen.
4. It was by faith that Abel obeyed God and brought an offering that pleased God more than Cain's offering did. God accepted Abel and proved it by accepting his gift; and though Abel is long dead, we can still learn lessons from him about trusting God.
5. Enoch trusted God too, and that is why God took him away to heaven without dying; suddenly he was gone because God took him. Before this happened God had said how pleased he was with Enoch.
6. You can never please God without faith, without depending on him. Anyone who wants to come to God must believe that there is a God and that he rewards those who sincerely look for him.
7. Noah was another who trusted God. When he heard God's warning about the future, Noah believed him even though there was then no sign of a flood, and wasting no time, he built the ark and saved his family. Noah's belief in God was in direct contrast to the sin and disbelief of the rest of the world--which refused to obey--and because of his faith he became one of those whom God has accepted.
8. Abraham trusted God, and when God told him to leave home and go far away to another land which he promised to give him, Abraham obeyed. Away he went, not even knowing where he was going.
9. And even when he reached God's promised land, he lived in tents like a mere visitor, as did Isaac and Jacob, to whom God gave the same promise.
10. Abraham did this because he was confidently waiting for God to bring him to that strong heavenly city whose designer and builder is God.

For the rich man’s works, I’m referring commonly to many who says “work can saved” by telling “ I do a lot of good works, I do charities, build a foundation to help the masses; giving to the poor and needy—as Jesus Christ did.”

The following are used as the basis of the good works for salvation:
1.) Riches – for he will use his money to do a lot of good works
2.) Authority/power- used to display a lot good works
3.) Influential person – used to display good works to many
4.) Quantity of good works- the more good works , the merrier

So what does someone need to simply be saved? To believe only? Or must I repent as well?

Not to believe only. I may say I believe Jesus as my Lord, but without accepting Him and surrendering your life to Him, that will be a head knowledge only or act of believing. Even Satan believe Jesus Christ.

How could you repent if you did not believe? what force a person to repent if he does not know what & who is (he) repenting to?
I believe—that if we believe, we should also trust and obey Him, and that is faith. Then if you have faith, you must repent. Acceptance is already included when we believe, trust and obey. (Please see above scripture reference above in Heb. 11:1-10)

The following are the scriptures about salvation:
Rom. 10:9
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom. 10:13
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 16:31
30. And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31. And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 3:19
19. "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

John 1:12
12. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Some debated John 1:12 as referring to the Jews during the time of Jesus as not believing Jesus as the Son of God and Messiah though not applicable for all.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

This parable has nothing to do with people "believing" anything. You are reading that into the text because of Paul. This who parable is about works and how God will judge us based on what we do with what was given to us. Even a child can grasp this.

What was given to us? What particular this parable represents if this is about works?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

"Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Yeshua was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was going to pass that way. And when Yeshua came to the place, he looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." So he made haste and came down, and received him joyfully. But when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, "He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord. "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor, and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." And Yeshua said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:2-10

It was his acts of repentance, charity, and making things right with those he had cheated that earned him "salvation". The case for works-alone is established here again!

I have yet to find anyone who has put together the picture that Zacchaeus was almost certainly under the influence of John the Baptist's teaching and had been baptized by him. Yeshua knew this, and it was the reason why he called Zacchaeus by name and said ,"today I must stay at your house". Remember, John had come to prepare the way for Yeshua. Notice what John had taught concerning staying out of judgment and fire, as well as what he said to certain "tax collectors".

Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees, Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Luke 3:7-13

Zacchaeus was one of those tax collectors who was there that day. What John had said that day could be interpreted to mean he instructed those who had possessions to give half to the poor. "He who has two... give to him who has none." This is exactly what Zacchaeus had done. And since Zacchaeus had already defrauded others and collected more than what was appropriate, he went and made it right with them by going over and above the requirements of the Law, as found in Leviticus 6:1-5, and restored what he had taken as though he had stolen sheep... a "fourfold" requirement. (Exodus 22:1, and 2 Samuel 12:6) One might even surmise from this that Zacchaeus had made a practice of collecting the excess charge in sheep! Whatever the case, he had made it right, and the point to be made is that both Yeshua and John the Baptist made it very clear that it was works-alone, of loving others through charity as well as treating them the way he would want to be treated, that saved him from fire." http://judaismvschristianity.com/heavenorhell.htm

So, you mean that he has no faith to do such repentance? He just do it by works, and he’ll be saved?

Thanks

 

[Simplelogic]

My friend. Paul teaches that works have NOTHING to do with justification. Jesus is clearly teaching the opposite. No way around it. Faith and works are not mutually exclusive concepts. The whole Bible is about trusting in God and obeying His commandments. Yet because of Paul, you have thrown this very simple concept out the window! True faith IS an ACTION, this is why they go together. Faith is not a mental belief like Paul teaches. Believing in concepts about Jesus does NOT get anyone closer to God. If that was the case then all demons would be saved!! Think about. All demons believe that Jesus existed, died and rose again. Why are they not saved as well according to your logic? This is the VERY OPPOSITE of everything Jesus taught. Listen to what Jesus says in Matt 25. I won't add any commentary to it…just read it!


The Judgment

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘Because I was hungry, and you gave Me somethingto eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give Yousomething to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42because I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 25: 31-45

Jesus is telling us EXACTLY how he is going to judge the world in the last days and it is ALL ABOUT WORKS!!

 

[Yoshua]

My friend. Paul teaches that works have NOTHING to do with justification. Jesus is clearly teaching the opposite. No way around it. Faith and works are not mutually exclusive concepts. The whole Bible is about trusting in God and obeying His commandments. Yet because of Paul, you have thrown this very simple concept out the window! True faith IS an ACTION, this is why they go together. Faith is not a mental belief like Paul teaches. Believing in concepts about Jesus does NOT get anyone closer to God. If that was the case then all demons would be saved!! Think about. All demons believe that Jesus existed, died and rose again. Why are they not saved as well according to your logic? This is the VERY OPPOSITE of everything Jesus taught. Listen to what Jesus says in Matt 25. I won't add any commentary to it…just read it!


The Judgment

31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘Because I was hungry, and you gave Me somethingto eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give Yousomething to drink? 38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42because I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 25: 31-45

Jesus is telling us EXACTLY how he is going to judge the world in the last days and it is ALL ABOUT WORKS!!

Hi Simplelogic,

May I ask you if why do you think that the robber was admitted to be with Jesus in Paradise? Is it because of his works or by faith?

Luke 23:39-43
39. And one of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!"
40. But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41. "And we indeed justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
42. And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!"
43. And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

How about this example, who among them do you think was justified and commended for salvation?

Luke 18:9-17
The Pharisee and the Publican
9. And He also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
10. "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer.
11. "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, `God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.
12. `I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13. "But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, `God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14. "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."
15. And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He might touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them.
16. But Jesus called for them, saying, "Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
17. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all."

Thanks

 

[Simplelogic]

Theif pleaded for mercy and acknowledged his wrong. This is called repentance. Notice this man was not saved because he "believed" in Jesus. Both thieves believed in Jesus and only one was saved. Hmmmm.

The publican also sincerely repented to God. The Pharisee acted like he had done no wrong. Same story. Nothing to do with "faith alone" still.

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/Salvation/Justification.pdf

 

[Simplelogic]

So, you mean that he has no faith to do such repentance? He just do it by works, and he’ll be saved?

Thanks

no…I mean real "faith" IS an action. Not a belief.

 

[Simplelogic]

John 8:51 And The Overlap Of The Great Commission

Jesus told the apostles to make disciples of all the nations, “teaching them to obey [tereo] everything I com- manded you.” (Matt. 28:19-20.) Why were these commandments to be taught and obeyed by the nations?

1 Because Jesus explained in John 8:51: “I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys [tereo] My teaching will never die!
2 To be more accurate, “obeys” is “should have kept on obeying” (aorist subjunctive) and “will never” is actually“should never ever.”
3 Thus, it says, “all those who should have kept on obeying My Teaching should never ever die.”
4 This is the same message in Jesus’ parable about the one who builds on sand. “And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand [whose end is destruction].” (Matt. 7:26-27 ASV.)

Jesus similarly told the young ruler. “To enter life, obey [tereo] the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17).5

What Is A Failure To Tereo In Jesus’ Doctrine?

Is the failure to believe the disobedience which Jesus is concerned about? Is it is just one command to believe that He has in mind?

No. It means obedience to multiple commandments.

First, in Revelation 22:14, it speaks of multiple com- mandments: “Happy [are] the ones doing His command- ments (entolas), so that their right shall be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city.” (Rev 22:14.)6
Second, when Jesus gave the Great Commission, Jesus told the apostles to teach all the nations to “tereo [obey, observe diligently] all [things, panta, plural] that I have com- manded [entellomai] you.” (Matt. 28:20.)
Lastly, Jesus used tereo another time, just as He did in John 8:51, to refer to plural commandments. Jesus even said the obedience to them gained eternal life. This arose when a rich young man asked Jesus how to have “eternal life.” Jesus answered the young rich man: “To enter life, obey [tereo] the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17). Jesus then quoted nine of the ten commandments.

 

[Simplelogic]

Maybe it would help sort things out if you defined what you mean by "faith".

 

[Yoshua]

Theif pleaded for mercy and acknowledged his wrong. This is called repentance. Notice this man was not saved because he "believed" in Jesus. Both thieves believed in Jesus and only one was saved. Hmmmm.

The publican also sincerely repented to God. The Pharisee acted like he had done no wrong. Same story. Nothing to do with "faith alone" still.

http://jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/Salvation/Justification.pdf

Hi Simplelogic,

Therefore, do the thief that repents have faith or not?

In the case of a woman who wiped Jesus using her hair and saved by faith, how would you compare her with the thief on the cross? how will you reconcile them?

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

no…I mean real "faith" IS an action. Not a belief.

Let us go deeper on the issue of faith. So what happened to Zaccheus is a real faith because he did some action. Do you believe that inside the word “faith” is knowing that it is true and have trust to someone?

What I mean is when we believe in Jesus, we should know that He is true and have trust in Him.

Thanks

 

[Yoshua]

John 8:51 And The Overlap Of The Great Commission

Jesus told the apostles to make disciples of all the nations, “teaching them to obey [tereo] everything I com- manded you.” (Matt. 28:19-20.) Why were these commandments to be taught and obeyed by the nations?

1 Because Jesus explained in John 8:51: “I tell you the truth, anyone who obeys [tereo] My teaching will never die!
2 To be more accurate, “obeys” is “should have kept on obeying” (aorist subjunctive) and “will never” is actually“should never ever.”
3 Thus, it says, “all those who should have kept on obeying My Teaching should never ever die.”
4 This is the same message in Jesus’ parable about the one who builds on sand. “And every one that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand [whose end is destruction].” (Matt. 7:26-27 ASV.)

Jesus similarly told the young ruler. “To enter life, obey [tereo] the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17).5

What Is A Failure To Tereo In Jesus’ Doctrine?

Is the failure to believe the disobedience which Jesus is concerned about? Is it is just one command to believe that He has in mind?

No. It means obedience to multiple commandments.

First, in Revelation 22:14, it speaks of multiple com- mandments: “Happy [are] the ones doing His command- ments (entolas), so that their right shall be to the tree of life, and they shall enter by the gates into the city.” (Rev 22:14.)6
Second, when Jesus gave the Great Commission, Jesus told the apostles to teach all the nations to “tereo [obey, observe diligently] all [things, panta, plural] that I have com- manded [entellomai] you.” (Matt. 28:20.)
Lastly, Jesus used tereo another time, just as He did in John 8:51, to refer to plural commandments. Jesus even said the obedience to them gained eternal life. This arose when a rich young man asked Jesus how to have “eternal life.” Jesus answered the young rich man: “To enter life, obey [tereo] the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17). Jesus then quoted nine of the ten commandments.

Yes, we agree on believing and repentance, then now obeying. If we repent, that would mean we are prepared and ready to obey. I don’t see any reason why a person would’nt obey if he repents.

 

[Yoshua]

Maybe it would help sort things out if you defined what you mean by "faith".

For me, faith is the belief or conviction into something that I trust and know that it is true. In spiritual, when I say trust, this includes knowing who God is, who is He, and what He did for us. Inside the word "faith," I believe that this include repentance, commitment, obedience and dependency to Him. I believe that my act as worshiping, communion, good works, kindness, loving, mercy........is the result of having the Holy Spirit as my Counselor who guided me and rebuke me when I'm sinned.

Thanks

 

[Simplelogic]

For me, faith is the belief or conviction into something that I trust and know that it is true. In spiritual, when I say trust, this includes knowing who God is, who is He, and what He did for us. Inside the word "faith," I believe that this include repentance, commitment, obedience and dependency to Him. I believe that my act as worshiping, communion, good works, kindness, loving, mercy........is the result of having the Holy Spirit as my Counselor who guided me and rebuke me when I'm sinned.

Thanks

Thats a very long and confusing definition.

Ok…Its important to make a distinction here between your definition and Paul's. Paul believed in faith as a "concept" or mental belief that had NOTHING to do with good works. Its simply believing (mentally) in Jesus' death, burial/resurrection….thats it.

 

[Thanda]

"Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich. And he sought to see who Yeshua was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature. So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was going to pass that way. And when Yeshua came to the place, he looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house." So he made haste and came down, and received him joyfully. But when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, "He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner." Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord. "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor, and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold." And Yeshua said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." Luke 19:2-10

It was his acts of repentance, charity, and making things right with those he had cheated that earned him "salvation". The case for works-alone is established here again!

I have yet to find anyone who has put together the picture that Zacchaeus was almost certainly under the influence of John the Baptist's teaching and had been baptized by him. Yeshua knew this, and it was the reason why he called Zacchaeus by name and said ,"today I must stay at your house". Remember, John had come to prepare the way for Yeshua. Notice what John had taught concerning staying out of judgment and fire, as well as what he said to certain "tax collectors".

Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees, Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So the people asked him, saying, "What shall we do then?" He answered and said to them, "He who has two tunics, let him give to him who has none; and he who has food, let him do likewise." Then tax collectors also came to be baptized, and said to him, "Teacher, what shall we do?" And he said to them, "Collect no more than what is appointed for you." Luke 3:7-13

Zacchaeus was one of those tax collectors who was there that day. What John had said that day could be interpreted to mean he instructed those who had possessions to give half to the poor. "He who has two... give to him who has none." This is exactly what Zacchaeus had done. And since Zacchaeus had already defrauded others and collected more than what was appropriate, he went and made it right with them by going over and above the requirements of the Law, as found in Leviticus 6:1-5, and restored what he had taken as though he had stolen sheep... a "fourfold" requirement. (Exodus 22:1, and 2 Samuel 12:6) One might even surmise from this that Zacchaeus had made a practice of collecting the excess charge in sheep! Whatever the case, he had made it right, and the point to be made is that both Yeshua and John the Baptist made it very clear that it was works-alone, of loving others through charity as well as treating them the way he would want to be treated, that saved him from fire." http://judaismvschristianity.com/heavenorhell.htm

Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. He also said, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Now I ask, if I am not put in heart or meek, how do I make myself so?

 

[Thanda]

Ok…Its important to make a distinction here between your definition and Paul's. Paul believed in faith as a "concept" or mental belief that had NOTHING to do with good works. Its simply believing (mentally) in Jesus' death, burial/resurrection….thats it.

This would seem false when looking at Hebrews 11. Paul list a lot of works that he says were done by faith. Clearly Paul believed faith was the starting point to every good thing including good works and ultimately salvation.

 

[Simplelogic]

Jesus said, blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. He also said, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Now I ask, if I am not put in heart or meek, how do I make myself so?

Ezekiel 18 tells us:

27Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 29Yet saith the house of Israel: The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, is it My ways that are not equal? is it not your ways that are unequal? 30Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Return ye, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so shall they not be a stumblingblock of iniquity unto you. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live. Ezekiel 18: 27-32

 

[Simplelogic]

This would seem false when looking at Hebrews 11. Paul list a lot of works that he says were done by faith. Clearly Paul believed faith was the starting point to every good thing including good works and ultimately salvation.

• Romans 3:28 ("man is justified by faith apart from observing the law").

• Romans 4:5 ("To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness").

• Gal. 5:4 ("You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace").

• Romans 7:6 ("Now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in a new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code").

• Gal. 2:16 ("A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ, because by observing the law no one will be justified").

• Ephesians 2:8-9 ("For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.")

 

[Simplelogic]

Yes, we agree on believing and repentance, then now obeying. If we repent, that would mean we are prepared and ready to obey. I don’t see any reason why a person would’nt obey if he repents.

Repentance is itself an action. If I steal from somebody, I can't then simply then go and ask for forgiveness from God. I am require to approach the person from whom I stole and repay what I stole from them. Then I can go before God to receive forgiveness/restoration. Actions are mandatory in order to accomplish true repentance, every time. But this is not what Paul teaches. Paul teaches that faith is to be completely separate from works.

For example, R.B. Thieme, a fundamentalist pastor and author of over one-hundred books, dogmatically expunges anything Jesus taught about salvation. Thieme, in fact, stresses the new convert to not take the steps Jesus demanded for salvation. Thieme writes:

If all you’ve ever done is to add Lordship [i.e., turning in obedience to Christ] to faith, you probably are not saved, and you ought to make sure, and that is simply tell God the Father, and don’t make it long. Take about ten seconds at the most. Father, I believe in Jesus Christ. And the moment you tell Him that, you are saved. But if you add something you have cancelled it out. (R.B. Thieme Jr., Doctrine of Grace: Eternal Security (May 19, 1988) lesson 814.)