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JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Did Moses do anything from his own ability? When Jehovah said he was going to make Moses "a god to Pharaoh", do you understand what he meant? All his abilities resulted from the operation of God's power, not his own. When did Moses receive his power? When he took up his role as deliverer. Jesus was the foretold "prophet like Moses" who was to come. He also was empowered with holy spirit when he took up his role as deliverer of his nation.

Tell us whether you think Jesus would have been able to do a single thing of a supernatural nature unless he was empowered by Jehovah's spirit? When did the holy spirit come upon Jesus? Not until his baptism when he was 30 years of age. Prior to that he was just plain Jesus, the oldest sibling in a large Jewish family....why do you think his siblings failed to put faith in him until after his death? Why did people say "isn't this the carpenter's son?" if they were accustomed to see him perform miracles before his baptism?

Jesus was perfect and sinless like Adam, but a mortal human none the less. He was able to perform supernatural fetes, just as his apostles did when they received the holy spirit....they were not God, were they?
I think that at Jesus' baptism he received the power of the Holy Spirit for his own. Satan knew that. Didn't he? If he didn't then he was tempting God, not Jesus in the wilderness. When Jesus was baptised a voice out of heaven said, "My son!". Don't Jehovah's Witnesses still teach that Jesus could have defected but he always stayed faithful to Jehovah? What you are saying is that if he had defected he would have had no more power to do miracles since it was God doing miracles through him. That doesn't make sense. Does it?
 

Wharton

Active Member
Tell us whether you think Jesus would have been able to do a single thing of a supernatural nature unless he was empowered by Jehovah's spirit? When did the holy spirit come upon Jesus? Not until his baptism when he was 30 years of age. Prior to that he was just plain Jesus, the oldest sibling in a large Jewish family....why do you think his siblings failed to put faith in him until after his death? Why did people say "isn't this the carpenter's son?" if they were accustomed to see him perform miracles before his baptism?
You also need to read scripture.

His father was the Holy Spirit so how did he lose the Spirit if he was sinless? He didn't. Luke 2:40 the “Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

Jesus had no need for baptism. He was sinless. He does need to be confirmed as a Jewish teacher with authority/rabbi/master for the Jews to listen to him and you have to be 30 years old for that. He's operating under the Old Covenant so he follows the rules: he needs to be 30 years old to preach. He needs to be confirmed/ordained as a teacher with authority/rabbi. John is a teacher with authority. He, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit confirm Jesus as a Jewish teacher with authority/rabbi. "Listen to him."

Does the GB follow the system Jesus used? No, they do not. They have no authority to preach.
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
I have a question for JW's. We all agree that the "WORD" spoken of in John 1:1 is referring to Jesus, correct?

John 1:1-3 (ESVST) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If you were going to a meeting and you arrived 10 minutes after it had started, can you say you were there in the beginning of the meeting, or did you arrive later? If you are reading a book and start with page 5, can you say you started at the beginning of the book? What does, "IN THE BEGINNING" mean? Doesn't the beginning mean at the start of something, not at a time after the beginning?
 

savethedreams

Active Member
I have a question for JW's. We all agree that the "WORD" spoken of in John 1:1 is referring to Jesus, correct?

John 1:1-3 (ESVST) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If you were going to a meeting and you arrived 10 minutes after it had started, can you say you were there in the beginning of the meeting, or did you arrive later? If you are reading a book and start with page 5, can you say you started at the beginning of the book? What does, "IN THE BEGINNING" mean? Doesn't the beginning mean at the start of something, not at a time after the beginning?

Awesome question "In the beginning" has several meanings.
 

Mountain_Climber

Active Member
I have a question for JW's. We all agree that the "WORD" spoken of in John 1:1 is referring to Jesus, correct?

John 1:1-3 (ESVST) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If you were going to a meeting and you arrived 10 minutes after it had started, can you say you were there in the beginning of the meeting, or did you arrive later? If you are reading a book and start with page 5, can you say you started at the beginning of the book? What does, "IN THE BEGINNING" mean? Doesn't the beginning mean at the start of something, not at a time after the beginning?
I wonder why it says that Jesus was IN the beginning rather than AT the beginning.

It could not be said of God that God was IN the beginning because God is BEFORE the beginning.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Awesome question "In the beginning" has several meanings.


Like Collosians 1:15---- the firstborn of all creation= Jesus
And Proverbs 8( 1Cor 1:30)--speaking about Gods master worker=Jesus- 8:22- produced me( created) as the beginning of your ways( creation) --Jesus was created directly by God-first and last) all other things created through Jesus. But he wasn't Jesus in the ot--he was Michael the archangel.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I have a question for JW's. We all agree that the "WORD" spoken of in John 1:1 is referring to Jesus, correct?

John 1:1-3 (ESVST) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If you were going to a meeting and you arrived 10 minutes after it had started, can you say you were there in the beginning of the meeting, or did you arrive later? If you are reading a book and start with page 5, can you say you started at the beginning of the book? What does, "IN THE BEGINNING" mean? Doesn't the beginning mean at the start of something, not at a time after the beginning?


Collosians 1:15 says it all--the firstborn of all creation--means--created direct by God, first and last)
 

savethedreams

Active Member
Like Collosians 1:15---- the firstborn of all creation= Jesus
And Proverbs 8( 1Cor 1:30)--speaking about Gods master worker=Jesus- 8:22- produced me( created) as the beginning of your ways( creation) --Jesus was created directly by God-first and last) all other things created through Jesus. But he wasn't Jesus in the ot--he was Michael the archangel.

Are "in the beginning" and firstborn related phrases. Abrahamic faith speaks of God having no beginning; if it is his word then how can we interpret "in the beginning" properly.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Are "in the beginning" and firstborn related phrases. Abrahamic faith speaks of God having no beginning; if it is his word then how can we interpret "in the beginning" properly.
because there is no beginning/time in the eternal now that can be described properly by humans..
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Are "in the beginning" and firstborn related phrases. Abrahamic faith speaks of God having no beginning; if it is his word then how can we interpret "in the beginning" properly.


God had no beginning--Jesus did--the firstborn of all creation. Jesus is not God--trinity translating error at John 1:1--a small g goes in the last line.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Says the Jehovah's Witnesses NWT.

Try a real bible.


Well at Proverbs 8--talking about wisdom( 1Cor 1:30)= Jesus--Gods master worker--prov 8:22--produced me( created) as the beginning of your ways( creation)--created direct-first and last--then all other things created through Jesus making him--Gods master worker. But he wasn't Jesus until he came to earth and was mortal--he is Michael. prov goes on to say--grew especially fond of me.--Who is God especially fond of= Jesus.
 

Wharton

Active Member
Well at Proverbs 8--talking about wisdom( 1Cor 1:30)= Jesus--Gods master worker--prov 8:22--produced me( created) as the beginning of your ways( creation)--created direct-first and last--then all other things created through Jesus making him--Gods master worker. But he wasn't Jesus until he came to earth and was mortal--he is Michael. prov goes on to say--grew especially fond of me.--Who is God especially fond of= Jesus.
Michael/Jesus is a ''she?"

8 Doth not wisdom cry, And understanding put forth her voice?

2 On the top of high places by the way, Where the paths meet, she standeth; 3 Beside the gates, at the entry of the city, At the coming in at the doors, she crieth aloud: 4 Unto you, O men, I call; And my voice is to the sons of men.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
You also need to read scripture.

His father was the Holy Spirit so how did he lose the Spirit if he was sinless? He didn't. Luke 2:40 the “Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.”

What version are you quoting? This is not saying what you think it's saying. None of the translations I looked up render the verse this way. Perhaps you need to change to a more reliable translation in order to "read scripture"? Even the Catholic Bible does not translate the verse that way.

Luke 2:40..."And the child grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom; and the grace of God was in him." (Douay-Rheims)

Luke 2:40..."And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom. And the favor of God was upon him." (ESV)

He was a perfect human whose wisdom for his age was a reflection of that. Unlike sinful ones, he had full capacity in his intellect, emotions and physical abilities. He also had the loving protection of his Father watching over him.

Jesus had no need for baptism. He was sinless. He does need to be confirmed as a Jewish teacher with authority/rabbi/master for the Jews to listen to him and you have to be 30 years old for that. He's operating under the Old Covenant so he follows the rules: he needs to be 30 years old to preach. He needs to be confirmed/ordained as a teacher with authority/rabbi. John is a teacher with authority. He, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit confirm Jesus as a Jewish teacher with authority/rabbi. "Listen to him."

You are correct, Jesus' baptism was not necessary for repentance towards breaches of the law, which is why John at first refused to baptize him. Jesus' baptism was setting a pattern for those who would follow him. Baptism was not a common Jewish practice; there is no mention of it before John's ministry. He was the one "preparing the way" for Jews to become disciples of Jesus. John's Baptism was a symbol of repentance, done publicly for all to witness. In Jesus' case it was a fitting symbol of a death and resurrection....literally dying to a former course and being raised to a new one, with dedication to the doing of God's will first in one's life. Jesus mentions the doing of God's will often in his ministry. All Christians must therefore undergo such a baptism. It is not performed as a washing away of sin because Jesus' blood is what cleanses us from sin (John 1:7)....baptism is the beginning of a new life of service to God. This is the baptism that all JW's submit to. It is a public vow of service to God first in one's life. We then become part of Jehovah's global family, fully equipped for the task at hand. (Matt 28:19, 20)

Does the GB follow the system Jesus used? No, they do not.

Yes they do. We do not baptize infants as if they can somehow make a solemn vow to God before they can choose to do so. Without a dedication from the heart, that kind of baptism is meaningless. No one can dedicate themselves to doing God's will by proxy. For most, it is nothing but a kind of spiritual 'insurance', as if the act itself means anything without a dedication from the heart....and the children, more than likely, will not grow up to adopt the belief of their parents today anyway. So what did their "baptism" accomplish? It was a meaningless ritual.

They have no authority to preach.

What "authority" was needed to preach? All Christians were commanded to "preach the good news of the kingdom" and it was to take place right up to "the end" of the age, when Jesus would come as judge. (Matt 24:14 2 Thess 1:6-9) If it was only for the apostles, then who is "authorized" now? Only those authorized by your church?

If they were to preach as Jesus instructed, then why do we not see them actively "searching" for the "lost sheep" "in all the inhabited earth" as Jesus said? (Matt 10:11-15) No Catholic has ever approached me with anything even resembling the good news.....in fact they don't even want to talk about the Bible in most cases. They just want to perform their rituals, say their Rosaries and carry on with what they want to do. It requires no thinking on their part. The Catholic people who do think about the Bible are eager to talk about it...these are the ones who study with Jehovah's Witnesses and leave the Catholic Chruch. I know because I have studies with quite a few who are now my spiritual brothers and sisters.

In the first century, Christianity spread through word of mouth.....why do you think Jesus asked his disciples to 'beg the master of the harvest for more workers'? The field was ripe but the workers were few by comparison. (Matt 9:37, 38)

If it is only to be "authorized" ones who do this work.....how could it ever be accomplished? Where is the witness of the churches?
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Are "in the beginning" and firstborn related phrases. Abrahamic faith speaks of God having no beginning; if it is his word then how can we interpret "in the beginning" properly.

Since God had no "beginning" and he is the 'begetter' of a firstborn son, that means that it is the beginning of God's creative activity that is spoken about in John 1:1.

Rev 3:14 plainly says that the son is "the beginning of the creation by God"

Col 1:15, 16 tells us that Jesus is "the firstborn of all creation". "Firstborn" means that he was brought into existence by the one who caused his "birth". He is "the image" of his Father as his first and only direct creation. All other things came into existence via the agency of the son.

If their relationship is not father and son as we humans understand it, then why use it at all?
 

djhwoodwerks

Well-Known Member
And Proverbs 8( 1Cor 1:30)--speaking about Gods master worker=Jesus- 8:22- produced me( created) as the beginning of your ways( creation) --Jesus was created directly by God-first and last) all other things created through Jesus. But he wasn't Jesus in the ot--he was Michael the archangel.

What kind of double talk is this?? All other things created through Jesus, but He wasn't Jesus in the OT, He was Michael? If He was Michael in the OT, then all other things were created through Michael, correct? If Jesus wasn't in the OT, how could He create all other things?
 
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