Pantheism & Atheism

[The Sum of Awe]

A lot of people say that pantheism is "sex-ed up atheism" or that pantheists are practically atheists. I personally disagree. It might be true for some, specifically naturalistic pantheists, but I think that in those cases it just diminishes the term pantheism, it's like saying money is just paper, love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, diamonds are just rock, etc.

I can definitely notice the difference in my life now as a pantheist. Not just my worldview, but my relationship to the world is literal and not metaphoric, I learnt a lot about the behavior of nature (personality of God), I sense divinity in all around me, and beginning to understand the oneness of nature and I. I learned that nothing ends, it just rearranges, the only thing that dies is the illusory self.

Of course that might have more to do with my belief that the universe is active through some sort of awareness of itself.

Nonetheless I find pantheism to be more than just 'sexed up atheism' It's a journey of finding divinity in your self, in all things in nature, and causality. Then you realize this divinity isn't separate if we all have the same origin.

Its 'spiritual' aspects shouldn't be simplified as "love for nature"

It just grinds my gears when that's how it's viewed. Someone, who thinks there is no difference between atheism and pantheism will never understand it.

What say you?

 

[Ouroboros]

A lot of people say that pantheism is "sex-ed up atheism" or that pantheists are practically atheists. I personally disagree. It might be true for some, specifically naturalistic pantheists, but I think that in those cases it just diminishes the term pantheism, it's like saying money is just paper, love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, diamonds are just rock, etc.

I agree. It's a very specific kind of pantheism. Naturalistic pantheism is essentially the same view of how the universe works and came to be as any atheist view. However, just the fact that someone changes his view from "atheist" to "naturalistic pantheist" is to acknowledge the deeper meanings of the terms you mention. Atheism is a negative view of the world, while naturalistic pantheism is a positive view.

I can definitely notice the difference in my life now as a pantheist. Not just my worldview, but my relationship to the world is literal and not metaphoric, I learnt a lot about the behavior of nature (personality of God), I sense divinity in all around me, and beginning to understand the oneness of nature and I. I learned that nothing ends, it just rearranges, the only thing that dies is the illusory self.

Absolutely.

Of course that might have more to do with my belief that the universe is active through some sort of awareness of itself.

Agree. The fact that consciousness (whatever that really means) does arise from the powers, energies, matter, and so on from this world, is a mystery. Just because we can conclude that it does, doesn't mean that we understand how it does. Just like gravity and magnetic fields, we understand how and when they work, but not why or what's behind them. Being aware of one's own existence is a miracle, even if it's natural. In other words, even nature, and even the mundane things are all miracles of reality. To live in constant awe of being is amazing.

Nonetheless I find pantheism to be more than just 'sexed up atheism' It's a journey of finding divinity in your self, in all things in nature, and causality. Then you realize this divinity isn't separate if we all have the same origin.

In essence, how the world is explained to be, is the same as atheism. No supernatural or separate God that has to be worshipped, but still, yes, it's different because it's a positive outlook.

Put it this way. Atheism is to say "No" to something. Pantheism is to say "Yes" to it everything.

Its 'spiritual' aspects shouldn't be simplified as "love for nature"

It just grinds my gears when that's how it's viewed. Someone, who thinks there is no difference between atheism and pantheism will never understand it.

What say you?

They're the same, but they're different.

To me, it's the difference between saying "a house I reside in" and "home". Both are factually correct, one is just a emotionless fact, but the other one says more about what it means to me, how it relates to me, how I relate to it, and how it influences and changes my life.

Or simply put. One is just a cold fact, while the other has meaning and purpose.

Well, that's my views... as of now. They might always change later. Who knows.

 

[Bunyip]

I dI n't know about 'sexed up', but to me pantheism is not distinguishable from atheism. Pantheists reject theistic Gods, as do atheists - and embrace a God that is 'God' in name only and thus irrelevant to atheism.
Calling the universe 'God' does not infer any sort of claim, entity or faith that in any way challenges atheism.

Personally rather than looking at pantheism, deism or panentheism as any sort of 'sexed up' atheism - I tend to see them as little more than atheism in a wig and moustache trying not to look like atheism. Pantheists, deists and panentheists are atheists who do not wish to identify as atheists.

 

[Baladas]

A lot of people say that pantheism is "sex-ed up atheism" or that pantheists are practically atheists. I personally disagree. It might be true for some, specifically naturalistic pantheists, but I think that in those cases it just diminishes the term pantheism, it's like saying money is just paper, love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, diamonds are just rock, etc.

I can definitely notice the difference in my life now as a pantheist. Not just my worldview, but my relationship to the world is literal and not metaphoric, I learnt a lot about the behavior of nature (personality of God), I sense divinity in all around me, and beginning to understand the oneness of nature and I. I learned that nothing ends, it just rearranges, the only thing that dies is the illusory self.

Of course that might have more to do with my belief that the universe is active through some sort of awareness of itself.

Nonetheless I find pantheism to be more than just 'sexed up atheism' It's a journey of finding divinity in your self, in all things in nature, and causality. Then you realize this divinity isn't separate if we all have the same origin.

Its 'spiritual' aspects shouldn't be simplified as "love for nature"

It just grinds my gears when that's how it's viewed. Someone, who thinks there is no difference between atheism and pantheism will never understand it.

What say you?

I agree with you on every point.
It is only Naturalistic Pantheism that is virtually identical with atheism in the common understanding.

Many religious traditions are "pantheistic" such as Taoism.

To call it simply sexed-up atheism is very inaccurate.

Put it this way. Atheism is to say "No" to something. Pantheism is to say "Yes" to it everything.

Exactly!

Pantheists, deists and panentheists are atheists who do not wish to identify as atheists.

I disagree. I am one such example. I am indeed an atheist when it comes to theistic gods, and I freely make this known, but that is not all I am. That is to say, not what I primarily am.
If everything is to be revered and worshiped, then everything is my "god".
My atheism is about what I am not, my pantheism is about what I am.

 

[Bunyip]

I agree with you on every point.
It is only Naturalistic Pantheism that is virtually identical with atheism in the common understanding.

Many religious traditions are "pantheistic" such as Taoism.

To call it simply sexed-up atheism is very inaccurate.



Exactly!



I disagree. I am one such example. I am indeed an atheist when it comes to theistic gods, and I freely make this known, but that is not all I am. That is to say, not what I primarily am.
If everything is to be revered and worshiped, then everything is my "god".
My atheism is about what I am not, my pantheism is about what I am.

Sure, I am also atheist - and that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am, it is just my response to theism.

 

[Baladas]

Sure, I am also atheist - and that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am, it is just my response to theism.

Exactly, I apologize if I seemed to belittle the position.
Atheism is my response to theism as well, pantheism is simply what I feel best describes my general view of the world.

The only reason I don't generally identify as an atheist is because I don't feel that it is as accurate a label for me as pantheist is. I have a significant metaphysical claim to make.
When discussions lead to religion, I typically make it known that I don't believe in any god.

 

[Bunyip]

Exactly, I apologize if I seemed to belittle the position.
Atheism is my response to theism as well, pantheism is simply what I feel best describes my general view of the world.

The only reason I don't generally identify as an atheist is because I don't feel that it is as accurate a label for me as pantheist is. I have a significant metaphysical claim to make.
When discussions lead to religion, I typically make it known that I don't believe in any god.

I understand. For me I identify as atheist because I feel it is a more accurate label than pantheist. It makes my position in regard to Yahweh or Allah (who are usually the God in question) more clear.

 

[Ouroboros]

Sure, I am also atheist - and that has absolutely nothing to do with what I am, it is just my response to theism.

Of course. Anyone can identify themselves as an atheist if they don't believe in the theistic god.

However, if you imagine someone asking you what you work with and your answer is "I don't clean chimneys." The other person will then again ask what you do, and you then answer "I don't walk dogs." Atheism only answers what you're not. For some people, humanism is something that could bring a person from the "what I'm not" to say "what I am". Or naturalistic pantheism falls naturally for some people to claim what they are, as a continuation, an extension from what they already established they're not. Atheism is only a first step to free oneself from the bondage of traditional religion and beliefs.

 

[Bunyip]

Of course. Anyone can identify themselves as an atheist if they don't believe in the theistic god.

However, if you imagine someone asking you what you work with and your answer is "I don't clean chimneys." The other person will then again ask what you do, and you then answer "I don't walk dogs." Atheism only answers what you're not. For some people, humanism is something that could bring a person from the "what I'm not" to say "what I am". Or naturalistic pantheism falls naturally for some people to claim what they are, as a continuation, an extension from what they already established they're not. Atheism is only a first step to free oneself from the bondage of traditional religion and beliefs.

Atheism speaks only to theism - so any other 'steps' don't alter the fact that I am atheist. I can still have spirituality, meaning, amazing experiences - none of those are reduced by my atheism, or defined by it.

 

[Ouroboros]

Atheism speaks only to theism - so any other 'steps' don't alter the fact that I am atheist.

Agree. It doesn't.

I can still have spirituality, meaning, amazing experiences - none of those are reduced by my atheism, or defined by it.

Agree with that too. I respect people who identify themselves as atheists. Not problem in my book.

My belief as a God-believer came at very young age. I don't even know when I began to believe in God. It's one of my earliest memories.

In later years, Atheism came to me as a revelation or realization that my image of God was completely wrong.

Now, naturalistic pantheism came more as a decision to further my atheism to label myself as something more useful. It's a personal choice, not something anyone has to do. What we identify ourselves with are what makes us, and it also gives some direction how to look at things in life. Atheism was just too little for me, but that's for me, and it doesn't reflect anything on what you have to do or not do. Everyone finds the identity they're comfortable with that what they believe and not believe.

 

[Bunyip]

Agree. It doesn't.


Agree with that too. I respect people who identify themselves as atheists. Not problem in my book.

My belief as a God-believer came at very young age. I don't even know when I began to believe in God. It's one of my earliest memories.

In later years, Atheism came to me as a revelation or realization that my image of God was completely wrong.



Now, naturalistic pantheism came more as a decision to further my atheism to label myself as something more useful. It's a personal choice, not something anyone has to do. What we identify ourselves with are what makes us, and it also gives some direction how to look at things in life. Atheism was just too little for me, but that's for me, and it doesn't reflect anything on what you have to do or not do. Everyone finds the identity they're comfortable with that what they believe and not believe.

I only identify as atheist in relation to theism, not in any other context.

As to being bound by our experiences of traditional religions, I don't really feel that way. I tend to see my experiences of religion as informative of my spiritual explorations - particularly as an artist. Religious ideas and imagery are a source of endless fascination. They are still a huge part of human history, they are and always will be a big part of what I am.

As to pantheism, it (to me) is simply that I see a universe of infinite wonder, complexity and mystery.

 

[Ouroboros]

I only identify as atheist in relation to theism, not in any other context.

As to being bound by our experiences of traditional religions, I don't really feel that way. I tend to see my experiences of religion as informative of my spiritual explorations - particularly as an artist. Religious ideas and imagery are a source of endless fascination. They are still a huge part of human history, they are and always will be a big part of what I am.

Sure. I considered myself as a spiritual atheist for a while. And i can relate to your experience and exploration in art. I'm the same. I've played several kinds of instruments over the years, and in the past couple of years, I've studied art as well. Got into drawing. That's my first mountain to conquer.

 

[Bunyip]

Sure. I considered myself as a spiritual atheist for a while. And i can relate to your experience and exploration in art. I'm the same. I've played several kinds of instruments over the years, and in the past couple of years, I've studied art as well. Got into drawing. That's my first mountain to conquer.

Awesome, music definitely connects us to some sort of magical, mystery of the universe. I am making a guitar at the moment. And my art tends to revolve around the pantheon of myth and faith - such images form a kind of shorthand, a visual symbol of something so much more complex and deep.
This was from a passage about Elijah that struck me - 1 Kings 19. It speaks to that very moment of creation - Elijah leaves his cave in that moment of silence after the cataclysms, wraps his mantle about himself and experiences the universal God. Cheers.

 

[Ouroboros]

That... that is amazing. I'm very impressed.

 

[Bunyip]

That... that is amazing. I'm very impressed.

That passage struck me as essentially pantheist - it crossed any barrier between theism and pantheism and spoke to both. Thanks again.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Naturalist pantheism being sexed up (made fancy?) sounds interesting as I share some views but I heavily believe in the supernatural. I am also an atheist.

I find where the border lies (or when it becomes "sexed up") is when people use other Words to define the same concept as say a theist word.

For example, I use the word God to say "God is everything". The difference is theists use God to mean creator so that meaning definition applies to nature but used a theist name.

I think that could be the same with naturalistic pantheism. Atheist justifying that there is spirituality, using the word God (or similar), and placing it on nature while rejecting the "words" but keeping the meaning.

Its confusing, really. If one is a pantheist, than thats what one is. There is no reject in deities if one is a atheist (not antitheist). So, being an atheist is an empty position.

Its like having an empty can and painting the outside. The can will always be empty. Color wont affect whats not inside.

A lot of people say that pantheism is "sex-ed up atheism" or that pantheists are practically atheists. I personally disagree. It might be true for some, specifically naturalistic pantheists, but I think that in those cases it just diminishes the term pantheism, it's like saying money is just paper, love is nothing more than a chemical reaction, diamonds are just rock, etc.

I can definitely notice the difference in my life now as a pantheist. Not just my worldview, but my relationship to the world is literal and not metaphoric, I learnt a lot about the behavior of nature (personality of God), I sense divinity in all around me, and beginning to understand the oneness of nature and I. I learned that nothing ends, it just rearranges, the only thing that dies is the illusory self.

Of course that might have more to do with my belief that the universe is active through some sort of awareness of itself.

Nonetheless I find pantheism to be more than just 'sexed up atheism' It's a journey of finding divinity in your self, in all things in nature, and causality. Then you realize this divinity isn't separate if we all have the same origin.

Its 'spiritual' aspects shouldn't be simplified as "love for nature"

It just grinds my gears when that's how it's viewed. Someone, who thinks there is no difference between atheism and pantheism will never understand it.

What say you?

 

[Ouroboros]

That passage struck me as essentially pantheist - it crossed any barrier between theism and pantheism and spoke to both. Thanks again.

May I ask what media you used?

 

[Bunyip]

May I ask what media you used?

I use inks and resins made from local plants.

 

[Quintessence]

I find the terms 'atheism' and 'theism' increasingly useless on the whole, so then I'd probably also say that to use either word to describe anything will result in failing to understand the philosophy/theology that lies behind the term. The term 'pantheist' actually describes a specific god-concept, making it far more useful of a term than theist/atheist can ever hope to be. Reducing down a more precise and complex term into an overly-general simplistic one is unwise.

 

[idav]

I dI n't know about 'sexed up', but to me pantheism is not distinguishable from atheism. Pantheists reject theistic Gods, as do atheists - and embrace a God that is 'God' in name only and thus irrelevant to atheism.
Calling the universe 'God' does not infer any sort of claim, entity or faith that in any way challenges atheism.

Personally rather than looking at pantheism, deism or panentheism as any sort of 'sexed up' atheism - I tend to see them as little more than atheism in a wig and moustache trying not to look like atheism. Pantheists, deists and panentheists are atheists who do not wish to identify as atheists.

Reality shouldn't challenge theology but between atheist and pantheism someone will be wrong on some assumption. They are close because atheism is faith based also. God can't be ruled out completely there is still the matter of what the ultimate source is. Are atheists taking a stab at ir?

Oh and cool painting.