JW's Jesus is Archangel Michael?

[james2ko]

What makes you think he is announcing his coronation? He has already had his coronation in heaven, so now with the fulfilment of the sign, the reigning king is coming to take the last of his bride home.

This is self-refuting, JD. If He was coronated in heaven in the past, they would be no need to announce it in the future.

I see no inconsistency. All I see is a lack of authorisation. When Michael refused to rebuke the devil, it was not his place because he was yet authorised to do that. Christ was sent forth with all authority from his Father when he became the Christ, so he could rightly condemn the devil and his followers. He was authorised at his baptism and empowered with the holy spirit to perform miracles, which included the expelling of demons.

Let me get this straight. Jesus, whom you say is Michael, was given the power and authority to create everything we see and don't see. Which means He created and had authority over the angels, including the one who later became satan. And He could not rebuke or cast Him out until after His incarnation and baptism??? Yet again, my illogical alarm is ringing.

 

[JayJayDee]

This is self-refuting, JD. If He was coronated in heaven in the past, they would be no need to announce it in the future.

Daniel links Jesus' coronation in heaven with the "time of the end". Everything Daniel prophesied pertained to this time period and no understanding of what he foretold would be understood before then. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10; 7:13, 14) This gels with his coronation taking place in 1914, when the first part of the sign was fulfilled with the outbreak of the First World War. The other features of the sign followed as this period ushered in the "last days" of the present system. (Matt 24:3-14; 2 Tim 3:1-5)

Let me get this straight. Jesus, whom you say is Michael, was given the power and authority to create everything we see and don't see. Which means He created and had authority over the angels, including the one who later became satan. And He could not rebuke or cast Him out until after His incarnation and baptism??? Yet again, my illogical alarm is ringing.

As I have mentioned before, this is a belief based on what is said in the rest of the Bible. It is not a doctrine, and cannot be without a statement of fact in the scriptures, so for us, it matters little whether Michael is the same person as Jesus or not. The only real drama it creates is for trinitarians because it would prove that Jesus is not God. But we don't need this as proof that Jesus is not Almighty God...the rest of the Bible already does that.

 

[Yoshua]

This is self-refuting, JD. If He was coronated in heaven in the past, they would be no need to announce it in the future.



Let me get this straight. Jesus, whom you say is Michael, was given the power and authority to create everything we see and don't see. Which means He created and had authority over the angels, including the one who later became satan. And He could not rebuke or cast Him out until after His incarnation and baptism??? Yet again, my illogical alarm is ringing.

It is because of wrong understanding of the scriptures by JW's. Jesus is a separate person; Archangel Michael is a separate person. They cannot be one. The other illogical understanding (in question) is this: How can (Jesus) archangel be worshiped by his own angel? Contradictory.

Heb.1:5-6
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son, And again,
6. And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,
"And let all the angels of God worship Him."

Thanks

 

[JFish123]

Daniel links Jesus' coronation in heaven with the "time of the end". Everything Daniel prophesied pertained to this time period and no understanding of what he foretold would be understood before then. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10; 7:13, 14) This gels with his coronation taking place in 1914, when the first part of the sign was fulfilled with the outbreak of the First World War. The other features of the sign followed as this period ushered in the "last days" of the present system. (Matt 24:3-14; 2 Tim 3:1-5)



As I have mentioned before, this is a belief based on what is said in the rest of the Bible. It is not a doctrine, and cannot be without a statement of fact in the scriptures, so for us, it matters little whether Michael is the same person as Jesus or not. The only real drama it creates is for trinitarians because it would prove that Jesus is not God. But we don't need this as proof that Jesus is not Almighty God...the rest of the Bible already does that.

I've noticed whenever you get backed into a corner with biblical truth like how Jesus can't be the arc angel Michael, even though The "spirit directed" Watchtower puts it's seal of approval on it, you just say, well, it's just a belief, not doctrine (then go off on a Trinitarian tangent). Well, if this "belief" the Watchtower holds is false (which it clearly is), then what else are they getting wrong?

 

[JayJayDee]

I've noticed whenever you get backed into a corner with biblical truth like how Jesus can't be the arc angel Michael, even though The "spirit directed" Watchtower puts it's seal of approval on it, you just say, well, it's just a belief, not doctrine (then go off on a Trinitarian tangent). Well, if this "belief" the Watchtower holds is false (which it clearly is), then what else are they getting wrong?

You know I used to get backed into corners when I was a churchgoer because none of the pieces I learned in church could even be squeezed into one big picture...but since I have learned the truth about what the whole Bible teaches (Genesis to Revelation)...there are no corners anymore. The big picture is awesome.

You see, we know the difference between a belief and a doctrine. Christendom applies the same criteria to both. Since there is no trinity taught in scripture, it is impossible to make a doctrine out of inference. We acknowledge inference and call it a belief. If it doesn't prove to be true...no biggie. But if the trinity fails to be true, your whole belief system collapses. See the difference?

 

[JFish123]

You know I used to get backed into corners when I was a churchgoer because none of the pieces I learned in church could even be squeezed into one big picture...but since I have learned the truth about what the whole Bible teaches (Genesis to Revelation)...there are no corners anymore. The big picture is awesome.

You see, we know the difference between a belief and a doctrine. Christendom applies the same criteria to both. Since there is no trinity taught in scripture, it is impossible to make a doctrine out of inference. We acknowledge inference and call it a belief. If it doesn't prove to be true...no biggie. But if the trinity fails to be true, your whole belief system collapses. See the difference?

Well if Jesus not being the arc angel Michael is not such a big deal (just a belief) then why not say it's false, given the scriptural and logical evidence? If not, then the Watchtowers inferences and doctrine may be alittle more merged then you care to believe.

 

[JayJayDee]

It is because of wrong understanding of the scriptures by JW's.

But heaven forbid there could be wrong understanding of the scriptures by Christendom, formulated exactly when an apostasy was foretold eh?
What a co-incidence! You take so much for granted. That is the only Christianity you have ever known....the interesting thing is, that Jesus says he NEVER KNEW the ones he rejects at the judgment time. (Matt 7:21-23) That means that the Christianity they claim to follow is not, and never has been recognized by him.

Jesus is a separate person;

Yes, Jesus is a separate person to Jehovah. Jesus called his Father "the only true God" without including himself. (John 17:3) He identified himself as one sent forth by his Father. He only ever called himself "God's son"....he never once said he was God. He directed all worship to his Father. (Luke 4:8)

Archangel Michael is a separate person. They cannot be one.

I believe they can. Who but an archangel speaks with an archangel's voice? If God used his own voice at Jesus baptism, why use the inferior voice of a lesser being to call his anointed to heaven?

The other illogical understanding (in question) is this: How can (Jesus) archangel be worshiped by his own angel? Contradictory.

Heb.1:5-6
5. For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son, And again,
6. And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,
"And let all the angels of God worship Him."

What contradiction? The pre-human Jesus was no ordinary angel. He was the first and only direct creation of his father. All other things were created through the agency of the son. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30, 31) That makes this "son of God" superior to all the others. There are many "sons of God" mentioned in the Bible, but this son is "only begotten". He is a unique creation...the beginning of God's creativity. (Rev 3:14)

I believe that you need to do a study on "pro·sky·neʹo" which is the word translated "worship" in the Greek scriptures.

In 1 Cor 15:27 it is clear that all things are subject to Jesus except the Father himself. That would include all the other angels....but nowhere is Jesus "worshipped" in the same way that Almighty God is worshipped. Pro·sky·neʹo can be rendered "obeisance" just as it should be when the magi honored the one born "king of the Jews". They were not worshipping Jesus as a god, but giving him honor as a child of royalty.

Some translation only render pro·sky·neʹo as "worship" but that is misleading. Some correctly render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE) which is its wider meaning. It doesnt always denote the kind of worship offered to a deity.

"The Greek word pro·sky·neʹo corresponds closely to the Hebrew term hish·ta·chawahʹ in expressing the thought of obeisance and, at times, worship. The term pro·sky·neʹo is used in connection with a slave’s doing obeisance to a king (Mt 18:26) as well as the act Satan stipulated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Mt 4:8, 9) Had he done obeisance to the Devil, Jesus would thereby have signified submission to Satan and made himself the Devil’s servant. But Jesus refused, saying: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of Gr. pro·sky·neʹo or, in the Deuteronomy account that Jesus was quoting, Heb. hish·ta·chawahʹ], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service [form of Gr. la·treuʹo or Heb. ‛a·vadhʹ].’” (Mt 4:10; De 5:9; 6:13)" (Insight Volumes)

In Australia, which followed the British legal system, judges used to be addressed as "Your Worship" denoting that they held a position of respect. The American system called them "Your Honor" demonstrating the same thing.

You assume too much. Do some deeper study and research. Its amazing what you can find. Read the scriptures provided and comment on them.

 

[JayJayDee]

Well if Jesus not being the arc angel Michael is not such a big deal (just a belief) then why not say it's false, given the scriptural and logical evidence?

We don't believe it's false...simple. No evidence has been presented to the contrary so far. But again, our belief system stays in tact regardless...your does not.
That's what Jesus meant about building a house on sand.....the storm is coming Houses built on a faulty foundation will collapse. End of story.

If not, then the Watchtowers inferences and doctrine may be alittle more merged then you care to believe.

You forget...I came out of the church system and I am free from all those beliefs adopted from pagan ideas adopted so long ago that most people do not know their origins. I was appalled to learn the truth about those beliefs that I had fed to me as Christian truth all my life. Like I said...I have been on your side of this fence...you have never been on mine.

 

[JFish123]

We don't believe it's false...simple. No evidence has been presented to the contrary so far. But again, our belief system stays in tact regardless...your does not.
That's what Jesus meant about building a house on sand.....the storm is coming Houses built on a faulty foundation will collapse. End of story.



You forget...I came out of the church system and I am free from all those beliefs adopted from pagan ideas adopted so long ago that most people do not know their origins. I was appalled to learn the truth about those beliefs that I had fed to me as Christian truth all my life. Like I said...I have been on your side of this fence...you have never been on mine.

1. Evidence has been presented. A lot of it, to the point where you don't respond with answers but instead can only say it's just a belief, which basically says you can't defend the point given, and then to further your lack of an answer you just go on a tirade against other subjects like the trinity. So yes, you have been given the answers by multiple people. Your "belief" in the Watchtower just binds you to believe in something the bible doesn't support.
2. Given the evidence if scripture my beliefs do hold up against the winds and rain as it is build in Rock
3. The trinity is not pagan nor is anything else. The evidence of the bible, and history proves it.

 

[JayJayDee]

1. Evidence has been presented. A lot of it, to the point where you don't respond with answers but instead can only say it's just a belief, which basically says you can't defend the point given, and then to further your lack of an answer you just go on a tirade against other subjects like the trinity. So yes, you have been given the answers by multiple people. Your "belief" in the Watchtower just binds you to believe in something the bible doesn't support.
2. Given the evidence if scripture my beliefs do hold up against the winds and rain as it is build in Rock
3. The trinity is not pagan nor is anything else. The evidence of the bible, and history proves it.

You are free to believe whatever you like. Nothing you presented in your walls of cut and paste were even worth reading. Sorry but I cant abide the lazy practice of posting someone else's thoughts as if they are your own.

Nothing productive going on here, just rehashing.... I am finished discussions with you on this thread.

 

[JFish123]

You are free to believe whatever you like. Nothing you presented in your walls of cut and paste were even worth reading. Sorry but I cant abide the lazy practice of posting someone else's thoughts as if they are your own.

Nothing productive going on here, just rehashing.... I am finished discussions with you on this thread.

That's quite alright you always say that so I'm used to it by now and it doesn't really mean much anymore. The Truth is still the Truth, whether my own words or someone else's who I believe is also correct either way then

 

[james2ko]

Daniel links Jesus' coronation in heaven with the "time of the end". Everything Daniel prophesied pertained to this time period and no understanding of what he foretold would be understood before then. (Dan 12:4, 9, 10; 7:13, 14) This gels with his coronation taking place in 1914, when the first part of the sign was fulfilled with the outbreak of the First World War. The other features of the sign followed as this period ushered in the "last days" of the present system. (Matt 24:3-14; 2 Tim 3:1-5)

That doesn't gel with passages that state every eye will "see" [optomai] Him returning. I've already had this conversation with Pegg in the past on several occasions. As usual, it didn't turn out well for your organization's interpretation. Perhaps you'd like to give it a shot.

As I have mentioned before, this is a belief based on what is said in the rest of the Bible. It is not a doctrine, and cannot be without a statement of fact in the scriptures, so for us, it matters little whether Michael is the same person as Jesus or not. The only real drama it creates is for trinitarians because it would prove that Jesus is not God. But we don't need this as proof that Jesus is not Almighty God...the rest of the Bible already does that.

I get the feeling this is as close as you are going to get to admitting your organization is wrong.

 

[Yoshua]

You are confusing his "coming" with his "presence". In Matt 24:3, Jesus was asked about the sign of his "presence" which would indicate that he had begun ruling as king. This sign was linked to the conclusion of the system of things.
We did not see Christ's enthronement in heaven because that realm is not visible to us. Daniel saw it in a vision and recorded it for our benefit. Remember that all that Daniel wrote pertained to "the time of the end". Read Dan 7:13, 14 and see that Christ was crowned as king at that time. The signs he gave were to make his disciples aware of his presence as ruler. Part of the sign he gave was the global preaching of the good news. (Matt 24:14)

When Christ comes as judge and executioner....we will all know it, because "every eye will see him".

Those who did not discern his presence, will not be prepared for his coming. He told us to "keep on the watch" because that day will strike suddenly, 'at an hour we do not think it to be' (Matt 24:32-44)

Hi Jay,

What I want to know is how will you reconcile these scriptures pertaining to Jesus second coming. First, you quoted 1 Thess. 4:16 and said that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. Now, I check with other scripture referring to second coming (below).

In Matt. 25:31, it says the Son of Man will come in glory including all the angels with Him. It says all the angels, does all means including Archangel Michael?

Matt.25:31
31. "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.

Matt 24:30-31
30. and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
31. "And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1 Thess. 4:16
16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Thanks

 

[savagewind]

I believe they can. Who but an archangel speaks with an archangel's voice? If God used his own voice at Jesus baptism, why use the inferior voice of a lesser being to call his anointed to heaven?

1 Thessalonians 4:16

Preposition "with" Strong's 1722 ..... The Lord comes "with" "an arousing outcry", "the voice of an archangel" and "the trumpet of God".

Strong's Greek: 1722. ἐν (en) -- in, on, at, by, with Please look it up. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus comes "as" an archangel. Please see that "as" isn't even a choice one should make for the word, ἐν.

I think JWs might agree that Jesus is not a cry or a trumpet. Then why is he the voice of an archangel?

I think that his coming is WITH those other three things. If you can find an arousing cry, an angel's voice and God's trumpet you will find The Lord there with those. Please.

 

[savagewind]

When any important person arrives to speak he or she NEVER arrives alone. When Jesus comes to you he will be with, not as, those other things.

 

[JayJayDee]

That doesn't gel with passages that state every eye will "see" [optomai] Him returning. I've already had this conversation with Pegg in the past on several occasions. As usual, it didn't turn out well for your organization's interpretation. Perhaps you'd like to give it a shot.

I'm sure Pegg gave you the same answer I will.

When Christ was enthroned in heaven he gave a sign to show when that took place, (Matt 24:3) He mentioned a series of world events to look for to indicate when the last days of this present age began. The 'coronation' mentioned in Daniel 7:13, 14 took place in heaven unseen to human eyes, which is why it needed a sign to identify it. This is what we believe happened in 1914. Jesus said it would be the "sign of his presence" (parousia) not that he was "coming" at the time.

Daniel's prophesy pertains to "the time of the end" so this is when Christ receives his kingship and all the events he foretold would take place, including the global preaching about the kingdom. (Matt 24:14) Jesus said he would direct this work. (Matt 28:19, 20)

As foretold in Psalm 110:1,2 Jesus was to "sit at God's right hand until his enemies were placed as a stool for his feet".
Then he was to "go subduing in the midst of his enemies"....so Jesus' rulership was not going to bring peace but a period when world conditions would go from bad to worse. People would be given a message as "a witness to all the nations" before "the end" would come.

Only when all the foretold events had taken place, especially the preaching work, would Jesus "come" to judge the world......to separate the sheep and the goats. This is when "every eye will see him"...not at the beginning of the last days...but at the end.

I get the feeling this is as close as you are going to get to admitting your organization is wrong.

I don't think so. We will admit when we are wrong...we are not wrong about this one.

 

[savagewind]

I think people can hear only the trumpet. Please pay attention to how you listen.
17"For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. 18"So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him."
Luke 8:18
'How' Strong's 4459 πῶς

 

[JFish123]

Jesus:
Authority to rebuke Satan: Mark 8:33.
Exclusively God’s Son: Hebrews 1:5.
Receives worship and God’s future Kingdom: Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:17-18.

Michael:
Cannot rebuke Satan: Jude 9.
Has an inferior name: Hebrews 1:4.
Rejects worship; Not given God’s Kingdom: Revelation 22:8-9; Hebrews 2:5.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

What contradiction? The pre-human Jesus was no ordinary angel. He was the first and only direct creation of his father. All other things were created through the agency of the son. (Col 1:15, 16; Prov 8:22, 30, 31) That makes this "son of God" superior to all the others. There are many "sons of God" mentioned in the Bible, but this son is "only begotten". He is a unique creation...the beginning of God's creativity. (Rev 3:14)

There is where you missed the thought of Heb.1:5-6 in your reply to Yoshua.

JayJayDee, you know that what was spoken at Hebrews 1:5-6 was spoken at Jesus' baptism. Was Jesus an angel when that was spoken to him, or even a spirit creature of any kind?

No, he wasn't. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood when that was spoken to him. What, then, is the point of noting that the angels never had that spoken to them but now one who humbled himself to be made lower than the angel's did have that spoken to him? There is a huge point there as regards God's rewarding Jesus' perfect humility with exaltation to greater glory.

Recoup yourself and finish your answer.

 

[JayJayDee]

There is where you missed the thought of Heb.1:5-6 in your reply to Yoshua.

JayJayDee, you know that what was spoken at Hebrews 1:5-6 was spoken at Jesus' baptism. Was Jesus an angel when that was spoken to him, or even a spirit creature of any kind?

Why does that make any difference?

When Paul wrote those words in Hebrews ch 1, Jesus was sitting at God's right hand in heaven, waiting for the time when his 'enemies would be placed as a stool for his feet'. (Psalm 110:1)

It is the words prior to verse 5, 6 that give us the explanation.......

Hebrews 1:1-4...."God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they." (NASB)

What is Paul saying about Jesus in these verses? Christ is "appointed heir of all things". What is an heir? What things did Christ "inherit"? Trinitarians will not like the words of this scripture because it clearly separates God from his Christ. Jesus is given a name more excellent than the angels' and is an inheritor of what his God gives him. If Jesus was God, what could he "inherit" that he doesn't already have?

But as God's "only begotten son", who was a unique creation......'the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his nature"....Jesus was not just your average angel. Which is why it is said in verses 5 and 6..."For to which of the angels did He ever say, “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again,“I will be a Father to Him And He shall be a Son to Me”? And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

God did not entrust any of those Angels with the task of rescuing the human race...he sent his most trusted son to do the job.
The word rendered "worship" in verse 6 is "proskenyo" which in this instance means "obeisance" as the angels are bowing before one who is their superior....not only their superior but the one who was responsible for their very existence. (Col 1:15, 16) But he is not receiving "worship" such as is rendered to God "alone". (Luke 4:8)

There are only two beings in all of scripture who are said to be in command of the angels....Jesus and Michael.
If you choose not to believe that they are the same personage under different names in different roles in their service to Jehovah....then don't.
It matters little in the big picture. What matters, is that Jeus is NOT Almighty God....isn't that something you have stated is not a belief of yours in any case?

No, he wasn't. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood when that was spoken to him. What, then, is the point of noting that the angels never had that spoken to them but now one who humbled himself to be made lower than the angel's did have that spoken to him? There is a huge point there as regards God's rewarding Jesus' perfect humility with exaltation to greater glory.

Recoup yourself and finish your answer.

I have no necessity to recoup anything. Perhaps it is you who need to recoup your own understanding? I am quite satisfied with mine. There are few dead pixels in my big picture, thanks to my teachers, whom I believe are directed by God's spirit.
You are free to believe whatever you wish.