Purpose of Worship

[sun rise]

Basically, you are saying that the act means nothing unless there is good motive?

If so, Id say the action is just as important as the intent. For example, if I had a stomach upset, and I decide to drink medicine, my ache would ease. If I did not believe the medicine would help and I did the action to drink it anyway, it will biologically ease the pain regardless what I believed.

Likewise, Id think it similar in beliefs. I understand bowing ones head since it is to some an act of submission. We do this in our flight response to an authority. Anyone can bow and it will mean the same even if the person doesnt believe it. (I believe actions are the intent) While lighting a candle, I cant see the connection behind it. No ease of pain. No submission like the child example. Its all intent but since I believe actions are intent, when the action (drinking the medicine) doesnt with the intent (because my stomach ache), it doesnt make sense to me.

Is that a good comparison?

How about a different example. Let's say I bash someone on the head. What do you think about that action? Suppose I bashed someone on the head to rob them? Or perhaps I bashed someone on the head who was struggling in the water and I had to bash them to save them?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How about a different example. Let's say I bash someone on the head. What do you think about that action? Suppose I bashed someone on the head to rob them? Or perhaps I bashed someone on the head who was struggling in the water and I had to bash them to save them?

Got to put your question or point with your example. I cant guess your point.

If you bashed someone, Id "assume" your intent is to hurt someone. I only know if that is true if I asked. It could be for any reason. I try not to assume the intent of the action if it hurts someone or myself. I usually helpnl or stay out of the way.

Our US government tells us we are innocent until provem guilty. However, they usually so guilty until proven innocent. The meaning that went with the action without explanation went before the intent behind it. Action is intent. No one knows what the action means until they "ask."

That is what I am doing in a nice manner now. I am asking about the action of bowing because, although I bow, Id like to know how that goes with intent. When I see anyone bow, I dont know why. It doesnt tell me. Likewise with lighting a candle.

On the other hand, bashing someone gives me an idea of hurting someone. Bashing=hurting someone. Its less likely Id ask the intent unless I am a lawyer, police officer, or dudge whose jovlb is to evaluate the action to find intent in it so the lawyer can help his client, officer can judge the extent of the attack, judge can judge the extent and what the consequences of the crime is.

What do YOU meam with that example?

Thats how I interpreted it.

 

[sun rise]

Got to put your question or point with your example. I cant guess your point.

If you bashed someone, Id "assume" your intent is to hurt someone. I only know if that is true if I asked. It could be for any reason. I try not to assume the intent of the action if it hurts someone or myself. I usually helpnl or stay out of the way.

Our US government tells us we are innocent until provem guilty. However, they usually so guilty until proven innocent. The meaning that went with the action without explanation went before the intent behind it. Action is intent. No one knows what the action means until they "ask."

That is what I am doing in a nice manner now. I am asking about the action of bowing because, although I bow, Id like to know how that goes with intent. When I see anyone bow, I dont know why. It doesnt tell me. Likewise with lighting a candle.

On the other hand, bashing someone gives me an idea of hurting someone. Bashing=hurting someone. Its less likely Id ask the intent unless I am a lawyer, police officer, or dudge whose jovlb is to evaluate the action to find intent in it so the lawyer can help his client, officer can judge the extent of the attack, judge can judge the extent and what the consequences of the crime is.

What do YOU meam with that example?

Thats how I interpreted it.

This might be a case where we were using different words to indicate the same thing. I agree we often don't know someone's motives for any act. We make assumptions based on the act itself and what, if anything, we know of the person. I was writing about the meaning of the act from the frame-of-reference of the actor not the observer.

My outlook was influenced by various writers who looked at motives and action. One example is the story of Moses and Khizr in the Quran. Another example speaking to motives is Meher Baba's discourse on violence and non-violence.
From these and other sources my mind immediately goes to the motive of the actor.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The article kind of reminds me of when I practiced Zen. We disatach ourselves from thinking our actions (and every 'thing' else) from the spiritual. Even the "spiritual" people attach themselves as we may feel we should have a special feeling when having a spiritual moment; Zen Buddhist disattach themselves of.

Likewise, what the article is saying about actions. The problem is I agree on both sides. Our spirituality is not "depended" on actions so intent is important. Also the actions are the expressions of our intentions; they work together.

When I was at the Church, that was completely opposite of Zen and the article, but you can really "get" the intent when you do the action rather than seeing it (like bashing).

Its like having intent or belief I want to wash my hair. I sit and dont move a finger because intent is more important. My hair isnt washed, but at least I know my belief, faith, or intent made feel happy that my hair would somehow be cleaned (hope, I guess). Its more important than action.

If I actually washed my hair with or without intent, my hair would still be cleaned regardless my intentions.

Im more focused on the washing so my hair to be cleaned.

Seems like thr article is more concerned with the intent to wash ones hair and thats spirituality, the intent, hope, and belief but not the action itself (thats were I disagree)
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I dont know if we are saying the same thing or not either. The hair washing is the closest I can get.

The only people who I talk with that understands actions as intentions are Catholics, some Jews I meet online, Muslims in person as well, basically anyone who have formal rituals in their faith. I know the article does not agree with formailities as spirituality.

To me, its more spirituality is not "depended" on rituals (I dont 'have to bow to the sun' but that action, to bow, is my intent even if my thoughts arent there to "show" it)

This might be a case where we were using different words to indicate the same thing. I agree we often don't know someone's motives for any act. We make assumptions based on the act itself and what, if anything, we know of the person. I was writing about the meaning of the act from the frame-of-reference of the actor not the observer.

My outlook was influenced by various writers who looked at motives and action. One example is the story of Moses and Khizr in the Quran. Another example speaking to motives is Meher Baba's discourse on violence and non-violence.
From these and other sources my mind immediately goes to the motive of the actor.

Sorry for the long post. Its not a rebuttle just a reflection on your views and the article. It was a good read.

 

[DawudTalut]

I dont know of what I asking is clear. When you pay homage you are doing something for your God. You are actually giving Him something. A for of charity.

When you bow, the intent or spirit is there and the bow in and of itself, how (not why) does that relate to your intent?

If I turned in circles for a God, I dont see that as worship. Hed probably look at me (like bowing) why are you doing such an isolated motion. Go and help yourself be in good health, help someone, or help the environment. That-is how you can worship me. Not turning around in circles.

Kinda understand? Theres a objective separation from the bow and worship (in my view) because ones action is more than a bow. It is being involved with life. Bowing, how does relate to something you do for God, self, others, or environment? How (not why) is it beyond worship by acting in the world?

Peace be on you.
== Remembrance is part of connection with God. It include acts of worship; standing, bowing, prostrating, praying in these states show love, respect, thankfulness and connection for God.

== Acts of helping others, doing good for humanity and planet; even planting a tree or remove a little stone from path [as asked by Prophet of Islam (pbuh)] are acts of obeying God Who said Do all the good and avoid all bad.

Thus direct worship of God and helping God creations are part of same program [God's right and His creation's right].

 

[Makaranda]

If I start my day with Puja, which is a form of worship in Hinduism, there is a knock on effect for the rest of the day. The act of Puja itself is the physical (less often, mental) offering of water, fire, incense, food, and other items to a chosen Deva. The worshipper may perform Puja in a prayerful attitude to gain the blessings of the Deva, or, as in my case, I offer the worship with no particular expectation of any result. It becomes, in essence, a selfless action (which in turn has a purifying effect on the mind). This selfless action, along with the beautiful atmosphere of the ritual itself, puts me in a frame of mind of thoughtfulness, calmness, and giving. Thus I then leave the Puja room uplifted and happy, and this carries through all of my interactions throughout the day. I am kind(er) towards people, the ups and downs of the day do not ruffle me, I am internally quiet.

It is a wonderfully meditative form of worship. The benefit extends far beyond a mere series of physical actions. Much better than falling out of bed and running out of the door stressed!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do bow too; even though in and of itself, it does nothing. I do it anyway because that's how I show respect. It's something I do; "and" if someone asked me "how does that relate to your worship? I dont see the connection." Techniquely, there is none. If that person saw me without my explanation, my bowing would say nothing in and of itself what is in my heart.

If I hit someome, I can see the action and assume the intent in the action without asking. The intent is strongly pointing towards "hurting somone."
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Its easy to explain How I help the environment. Helping the environemt takes care the earth. They can see without my giving reasons.

Its not easy to explain my bow "as doing the same thing as helping the earth/self/others." I cant explain it. How, not why, do you explain the connection (instead the earth, to God) you have with a bow (noun not verb) and worship (noun not verb)?
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Prayer makes sense because you are literally communicating with God.

When you hold your palms together, if someone saw and didnt know what that means, How does that action show them prayer to God without explaining Why you do so?

Peace be on you.
== Remembrance is part of connection with God. It include acts of worship; standing, bowing, prostrating, praying in these states show love, respect, thankfulness and connection for God.

== Acts of helping others, doing good for humanity and planet; even planting a tree or remove a little stone from path [as asked by Prophet of Islam (pbuh)] are acts of obeying God Who said Do all the good and avoid all bad.

Thus direct worship of God and helping God creations are part of same program [God's right and His creation's right].

 

[DawudTalut]

I do bow too; even though in and of itself, it does nothing. I do it anyway because that's how I show respect. It's something I do; "and" if someone asked me "how does that relate to your worship? I dont see the connection." Techniquely, there is none. If that person saw me without my explanation, my bowing would say nothing in and of itself what is in my heart.

If I hit someome, I can see the action and assume the intent in the action without asking. The intent is strongly pointing towards "hurting somone."
-
Its easy to explain How I help the environment. Helping the environemt takes care the earth. They can see without my giving reasons.

Its not easy to explain my bow "as doing the same thing as helping the earth/self/others." I cant explain it. How, not why, do you explain the connection (instead the earth, to God) you have with a bow (noun not verb) and worship (noun not verb)?
-
Prayer makes sense because you are literally communicating with God.

When you hold your palms together, if someone saw and didnt know what that means, How does that action show them prayer to God without explaining Why you do so?

Peace be on you.
In Islamic prayer each act of worship have associated meanings for soul.
With each act of worship, the associated prayers can explain more:

Details in
Home Page
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/salaat/

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Like sun salutations?

Peace be on you.
In Islamic prayer each act of worship have associated meanings for soul.
With each act of worship, the associated prayers can explain more:

Details in
Home Page
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/salaat/

 

[metis]

Gandhi had an interesting take on this that long has influenced my approach, namely that do we really honestly believe we are telling God something new when we pray, plus are we really praying for quite possibly selfish reasons? He felt that a better approach was to meditate on what God would want us to do, and then if we feel we should do something, as long as we judge it to be moral, then just do it.

From my experience of almost 40 years doing this, let me tell ya that his approach trumps all the "amens" and "hallelujahs" one can say in a thousand lifetimes. Gandhi felt that God "spoke" to us, not so much in words, but in feelings we may have, but we still have to judge those feelings first because God is not the only source for feelings we may have.

 

[DawudTalut]

Like sun salutations?

Peace be on you.
No
[Holy Quran ch 14: 38] And among His Signs are the night and the day and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not yourselves before the sun, nor before the moon, but prostrate yourselves before Allah, Who created them, if it is Him Whom you really worship.

 

[Nakosis]

Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?

I always assumed such observances was to put the person in the right frame of mind. More for their sake, to be humble, reverent, etc...

Sacrifice something you value, time, money, a goat to remember God comes first. Then go out and help the environment.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I always assumed such observances was to put the person in the right frame of mind. More for their sake, to be humble, reverent, etc...

Sacrifice something you value, time, money, a goat to remember God comes first. Then go out and help the environment.

That sacrafice is helping the environment. Worship is not just for oneself (which when it is, i was wondering how turning in circles make sense in that worship), but for others too.

Cant separate worship by personal devotion and devotion to others. They are both forms of worship. The latter "actions" makes more sense. The former, turning around in circles in and of itself, well, that seems off from an outsider.

 

[Nakosis]

That sacrafice is helping the environment. Worship is not just for oneself (which when it is, i was wondering how turning in circles make sense in that worship), but for others too.

Cant separate worship by personal devotion and devotion to others. They are both forms of worship. The latter "actions" makes more sense. The former, turning around in circles in and of itself, well, that seems off from an outsider.

Sorry, nothing about religion makes much sense to me. If you want to do something good, go do something good. No need to make a religious thing out of it.

Like I said, I just assume it is important in some religions to have people go about life in the right frame of mind. Maybe more important than what they actually do.

I think with Islam and Christianity, it is important to have this mentality of surrendering oneself to God. Right frame of mind.