• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Purpose of Worship

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I was thinking the difference between living ones faith and worship. For an odd ball example, eating healthy food is living ones faith. Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

How are these actions the same importance as taking care of myself, others, charity, and sacrifice of oneself for others?

How are these actions--the way one prays physically, spiritual language, etc--considered worship instead of worship being helping others, oneself, and ones environment?

Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I was thinking the difference between living ones faith and worship. For an odd ball example, eating healthy food is living ones faith. Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

How are these actions the same importance as taking care of myself, others, charity, and sacrifice of oneself for others?

How are these actions--the way one prays physically, spiritual language, etc--considered worship instead of worship being helping others, oneself, and ones environment?

Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?
I make gifts/offerings/payments to the human and other-than-human persons around me, as appropriate, and ask boons and favors for the benefit of myself and those I love. The mode of offering and the boon/favor sought vary (cash for some, friendship for others, etc.). Although tomorrow is the solstice, I'll be having a small bonfire, singing and dancing for the summer spirits at little later in the week, when I get back from a short vacation. Tomorrow, I'll probably just burn some sage, offer it and my prayers and respects to the quarters, and maybe make a small food/drink offering. The purpose is go continue my engagement in a number of mutual relationships with (primarily) the other-than-human persons in my immediate environment.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I make gifts/offerings/payments to the human and other-than-human persons around me, as appropriate, and ask boons and favors for the benefit of myself and those I love. The mode of offering and the boon/favor sought vary (cash for some, friendship for others, etc.). Although tomorrow is the solstice, I'll be having a small bonfire, singing and dancing for the summer spirits at little later in the week, when I get back from a short vacation. Tomorrow, I'll probably just burn some sage, offer it and my prayers and respects to the quarters, and maybe make a small food/drink offering. The purpose is go continue my engagement in a number of mutual relationships with (primarily) the other-than-human persons in my immediate environment.
I think my theme was unclear. When you singx dance, and burn sage how is that of the same importance as helping oneself, others, and the environment?

I see how helping someone who does not have money is living ones faith. Its helping others.

When you burn sage and give offerings, how does that relate as the same importance (or greater?) then helping self, others, and environment?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I was thinking the difference between living ones faith and worship. For an odd ball example, eating healthy food is living ones faith. Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

How are these actions the same importance as taking care of myself, others, charity, and sacrifice of oneself for others?

How are these actions--the way one prays physically, spiritual language, etc--considered worship instead of worship being helping others, oneself, and ones environment?

Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?
To me the Eastern formulation of "Karma Yoga", the yoga of service, "Bhakti Yoga" the yoga of love and devotion and other forms of yoga make it clear that what is different is not the essence but how that essence manifests. (Yoga used here is not what the west considers as yoga, but yoga in the sense of a path of union with the divine).
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
I think my theme was unclear. When you singx dance, and burn sage how is that of the same importance as helping oneself, others, and the environment?

I see how helping someone who does not have money is living ones faith. Its helping others.

When you burn sage and give offerings, how does that relate as the same importance (or greater?) then helping self, others, and environment?
Okay, gotcha. I view myself as being in a set of social relationships with a number of other-than-human persons (as well as human persons) who share my environment. Some of them like to have singing and dancing, some of them like the scent of sage or other materials (even wood), some of them like money, some of them like food, and so on. I provide those things, as appropriate. In return, they provide similar things for me and mine. It's a mutual aid society--what we do is helping oneself, helping others, helping "the environment," and so on.

Does that help?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Okay, gotcha. I view myself as being in a set of social relationships with a number of other-than-human persons (as well as human persons) who share my environment. Some of them like to have singing and dancing, some of them like the scent of sage or other materials (even wood), some of them like money, some of them like food, and so on. I provide those things, as appropriate. In return, they provide similar things for me and mine. It's a mutual aid society--what we do is helping oneself, helping others, helping "the environment," and so on.

Does that help?
Cool. I was thinking. I cant quite describe what Im asking. A lot of practices from an outsider looks like it has no literal connection to what or who is worshiped.

For example, if Im offering food to my grandmothers, Im doing so literally to two photos not my grandmothers. In spirit I am, but the connection outside of that is alienated.

Once thats explained, people can see the connection between the photos and my grandmother.

If they were pictures of say two buildings and offered food to my grandmothers in front of them, although thr spirit is there, the relation is not there. The buildings arent my grandmothers.

I see that concept in other faiths. For example, touching ones head to the ground in worship. Does thr ground and bow itself relate to the God that person worships. The spirit is telhere but the relation isnt.

On the other hand, someone with the same spirit reads the bible. The spirit is there and the method of worship is related because it is the bible that holds the words of her God. So its related rather than foriegn.

Kinda understand?
 

arthra

Baha'i
Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

Personally I think there is more to it... Kneeling and touching your head to the floor has a meaning and significance for those who do it... It is part of worshipping God and humbling oneself before Him.

Let him then kneel, and bowing his forehead to the
ground, let him say:

Exalted art Thou above the description of anyone
save Thyself, and the comprehension of aught else
except Thee.


~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 93


Verily, I say unto you that the Word of God has assuredly been explained and has become an evident sign and a strong and solid proof, and its traces shall be spread in the East and West, and to these all heads shall bow and all souls shall submit and kneel down with their faces to the ground."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 360

You can also worship God by your dedication to arts and sciences:

"...the acquisition of sciences and the perfection of arts is considered as acts of worship. If a man engages with all his power in the acquisition of a science or in the perfection of an art, it is as if he has been worshipping God in the churches and temples. Thus as thou enterest a school of agriculture and strivest in the acquisition of that science thou art day and night engaged in acts of worship -- acts that are accepted at the threshold of the Almighty. What bounty greater than this that science should be considered as an act of worship and art as service to the Kingdom of God."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 377
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The intent not the action itself?
To me, the act depends on the motive. If someone does an act which in of itself seems like a good act but the motive is egotistical, to have his or her name in the media as a benefactor of humanity, it's one thing. If the acts are done out of a feeling of compassion and a feeling that we're all brothers and sisters, it's something else.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
I was thinking the difference between living ones faith and worship. For an odd ball example, eating healthy food is living ones faith. Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

How are these actions the same importance as taking care of myself, others, charity, and sacrifice of oneself for others?

How are these actions--the way one prays physically, spiritual language, etc--considered worship instead of worship being helping others, oneself, and ones environment?

Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?
Peace be on you.
Some related lines:

".......the purpose of worship is not just bowing to a superior being and paying homage to His greatness, as if God created man only for satiating His egotistic desire of being praised. All the purposes mentioned in relation to the philosophy of worship and the manner in which a Muslim is required to conduct his prayer, makes it manifestly clear that the benefit of prayer is drawn by the worshipper himself and in no way can it be taken as a favour to God......

.....Remembrance of God and pondering over His attributes during the prayer helps man in refining his spirit, bringing it more into harmony with the nature of God.......

.....It is impossible for one to be near God and distance himself from His creation.........


.....Verily, Prayer prevents the worshipper from indulging in anything that is undignified or indecent. Surah Al-Ankabut (Ch. 29. V 46).....
This verse has both positive and negative connotations, both highly essential for cultivating ideal human conduct. Thus in its negative connotation, it helps the worshipper by liberating him from sins of all types. In its positive connotation it educates man, fines his character and cultivates his qualities to such sublimity as he becomes worthy of communion with God.....

......Of all the influences that work towards the making and modification of the human soul, prayer is the most important single factor.

.......Islam admonishes both congregational and individual prayer. The congregational prayers are held in a manner which is amazingly well organised and meaningful....."

More @ The Prayer
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/study-of-islam/prayer.html

=======================================================
Various aspects of worship [Islamic Salaat] @ # 8 https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/contents.html
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/essence/contents.html

======================================================

Physical benefits of worship / salaat @ Physical Benefits of Salat (Prayer)
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Who knows, there could be seven billion reasons why we worship, I myself don't worship anything, why should I when I am part of everything.
 

Neo Deist

Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Kneeling, bowing your head, touching a part of your body...it is just a ritual and a part of tradition. It does not actually do anything.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Personally I think there is more to it... Kneeling and touching your head to the floor has a meaning and significance for those who do it... It is part of worshipping God and humbling oneself before Him.

Let him then kneel, and bowing his forehead to the
ground, let him say:

Exalted art Thou above the description of anyone
save Thyself, and the comprehension of aught else
except Thee.


~ Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 93


Verily, I say unto you that the Word of God has assuredly been explained and has become an evident sign and a strong and solid proof, and its traces shall be spread in the East and West, and to these all heads shall bow and all souls shall submit and kneel down with their faces to the ground."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 360

You can also worship God by your dedication to arts and sciences:

"...the acquisition of sciences and the perfection of arts is considered as acts of worship. If a man engages with all his power in the acquisition of a science or in the perfection of an art, it is as if he has been worshipping God in the churches and temples. Thus as thou enterest a school of agriculture and strivest in the acquisition of that science thou art day and night engaged in acts of worship -- acts that are accepted at the threshold of the Almighty. What bounty greater than this that science should be considered as an act of worship and art as service to the Kingdom of God."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 377

True. Think about it, though. We are different in our worship, and when I think of worship I think of how can I do somethint for myself (maybe meditation to clear my mind and be one with self and with life), helping others maybe througu as much charity I can afford.

Sometimes I bow to the sun especially in the morning and ask for safety (not to the sun) in general. Yet, the bow doesnt do anything of itself. It is not like doing something for self or other. Its a mothing we attach to our intent in who we worshipm

Yet, if am athiest bowed that bow does not literally show his appreciation to life. Yet, if see Him do an act of kindness, then I think "he is touch with the spirit of life. He doesnt need to believe in what I do honor the spirit because his charity is honor "regardless of how he sees it" unlike bowing where it means only something to the one who does it, like believers, and their who or what they worship.

Its like my spining pencil on the table ans say thats worship. It lay be that to me or anything really. If I did charity, that associates me with the spirit whether I believe it or not.

So our worship is what we do for ourselves, others, and our enviroment. If I see someone bow with their head to the floor, how does fulfil those acts of worship? How does that relate?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
To me, the act depends on the motive. If someone does an act which in of itself seems like a good act but the motive is egotistical, to have his or her name in the media as a benefactor of humanity, it's one thing. If the acts are done out of a feeling of compassion and a feeling that we're all brothers and sisters, it's something else.
How do you equal good intent with bowing with head to the ground? Wouldnt what we do mirror our intents?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I dont know of what I asking is clear. When you pay hamage you are doing something for your God. You are actually giving Him something. A for of charity.

When you bow, the intent or spirit is there and the bow in and of itself, how (not why) does that relate to your intent?

If I turned in circles for a God, I dont see that as worship. Hed probably look at me (like bowing) why are you doing such an isolated motion. Go and help yourself be in good health, help someone, or help the environment. That-is how you can worship me. Not turning around in circles.

Kinda understand? Theres a objective separation from the bow and worship (in my view) because ones action is more than a bow. It is being involved with life. Bowing, how does relate to something you do for God, self, others, or environment? How (not why) is it beyond worship by acting in the world?

Peace be on you.
Some related lines:

".......the purpose of worship is not just bowing to a superior being and paying homage to His greatness, as if God created man only for satiating His egotistic desire of being praised. All the purposes mentioned in relation to the philosophy of worship and the manner in which a Muslim is required to conduct his prayer, makes it manifestly clear that the benefit of prayer is drawn by the worshipper himself and in no way can it be taken as a favour to God......

.....Remembrance of God and pondering over His attributes during the prayer helps man in refining his spirit, bringing it more into harmony with the nature of God.......

.....It is impossible for one to be near God and distance himself from His creation.........


.....Verily, Prayer prevents the worshipper from indulging in anything that is undignified or indecent. Surah Al-Ankabut (Ch. 29. V 46).....
This verse has both positive and negative connotations, both highly essential for cultivating ideal human conduct. Thus in its negative connotation, it helps the worshipper by liberating him from sins of all types. In its positive connotation it educates man, fines his character and cultivates his qualities to such sublimity as he becomes worthy of communion with God.....

......Of all the influences that work towards the making and modification of the human soul, prayer is the most important single factor.

.......Islam admonishes both congregational and individual prayer. The congregational prayers are held in a manner which is amazingly well organised and meaningful....."

More @ The Prayer
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/study-of-islam/prayer.html

=======================================================
Various aspects of worship [Islamic Salaat] @ # 8 https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/contents.html
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/essence/contents.html

======================================================

Physical benefits of worship / salaat @ Physical Benefits of Salat (Prayer)


Peace be on you.
Some related lines:

".......the purpose of worship is not just bowing to a superior being and paying homage to His greatness, as if God created man only for satiating His egotistic desire of being praised. All the purposes mentioned in relation to the philosophy of worship and the manner in which a Muslim is required to conduct his prayer, makes it manifestly clear that the benefit of prayer is drawn by the worshipper himself and in no way can it be taken as a favour to God......

.....Remembrance of God and pondering over His attributes during the prayer helps man in refining his spirit, bringing it more into harmony with the nature of God.......

.....It is impossible for one to be near God and distance himself from His creation.........


.....Verily, Prayer prevents the worshipper from indulging in anything that is undignified or indecent. Surah Al-Ankabut (Ch. 29. V 46).....
This verse has both positive and negative connotations, both highly essential for cultivating ideal human conduct. Thus in its negative connotation, it helps the worshipper by liberating him from sins of all types. In its positive connotation it educates man, fines his character and cultivates his qualities to such sublimity as he becomes worthy of communion with God.....

......Of all the influences that work towards the making and modification of the human soul, prayer is the most important single factor.

.......Islam admonishes both congregational and individual prayer. The congregational prayers are held in a manner which is amazingly well organised and meaningful....."

More @ The Prayer
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/study-of-islam/prayer.html

=======================================================
Various aspects of worship [Islamic Salaat] @ # 8 https://www.alislam.org/books/essence/contents.html
wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/books/essence/contents.html

======================================================

Physical benefits of worship / salaat @ Physical Benefits of Salat (Prayer)
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I was thinking the difference between living ones faith and worship

I don't see a distinction between these two things.


For an odd ball example, eating healthy food is living ones faith. Yet, taking time out to kneel, and lean forward touching ones head to the floor does not do anything in and of itself.

Sure it does. And if it doesn't, one is doing it wrong. If all one is doing is going through the motions, and not feeling the sense of emotional awe, reverence, and gratitude – that wellspring of positivity in feeling – one is simply doing it wrong.


How are these actions the same importance as taking care of myself, others, charity, and sacrifice of oneself for others?

I don't see much purpose to the comparison. Everything is important (equal intrinsic value), and nothing has "the same" importance (as deemed by some particular human's personal and subjective whims).


How are these actions--the way one prays physically, spiritual language, etc--considered worship instead of worship being helping others, oneself, and ones environment?


It's not an "instead of." It's an "and." They're both forms of worship. They're both forms of expressing reverence, devotion, and gratitude.


Example, if I turned around in three circles for God, how does (if it does) it please God to do this rather than by helping oneself, others, and the enviornment?

When did worship become solely about what the gods want? Hasn't worship always had a human, and perhaps more importantly, social function in human cultures?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Just using God for easier understanding to those who believe in God.

As for and, I was thinking. The act of my bowing and charity are forms of worship. Bowing in and of itself does nothing; only in and of itself not the motive of the person bowing. Its not like charity where the motive does not dictate whether the charity helped. Anyone can give charity and they dont need to believe in anything for it to be spiritual in and of itself.

If a atheist bowed, then Id wonder why. It does nothing of itself like charity.

Both are acts of worship. They are different because charity doesnt need belief or gratitude to help someone else, say give them food. Their bellies would be greatful regardless our motives.

Bowing is completely different. If it is not, how?

I don't see a distinction between these two things.



Sure it does. And if it doesn't, one is doing it wrong. If all one is doing is going through the motions, and not feeling the sense of emotional awe, reverence, and gratitude – that wellspring of positivity in feeling – one is simply doing it wrong.




I don't see much purpose to the comparison. Everything is important (equal intrinsic value), and nothing has "the same" importance (as deemed by some particular human's personal and subjective whims).




It's not an "instead of." It's an "and." They're both forms of worship. They're both forms of expressing reverence, devotion, and gratitude.




When did worship become solely about what the gods want? Hasn't worship always had a human, and perhaps more importantly, social function in human cultures?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
How do you equal good intent with bowing with head to the ground? Wouldnt what we do mirror our intents?
One is an action. The other is the reason that lies behind the action. One can bow from a selfish reason - treating the divine like a piñata that you "whack" with worship to get a selfish result. One can bow in recognition of the beauty of the divine. What someone does thus conveys little meaning to me. Why someone acts the way they do does convey meaning.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
One is an action. The other is the reason that lies behind the action. One can bow from a selfish reason - treating the divine like a piñata that you "whack" with worship to get a selfish result. One can bow in recognition of the beauty of the divine. What someone does thus conveys little meaning to me. Why someone acts the way they do does convey meaning.
Basically, you are saying that the act means nothing unless there is good motive?

If so, Id say the action is just as important as the intent. For example, if I had a stomach upset, and I decide to drink medicine, my ache would ease. If I did not believe the medicine would help and I did the action to drink it anyway, it will biologically ease the pain regardless what I believed.

Likewise, Id think it similar in beliefs. I understand bowing ones head since it is to some an act of submission. We do this in our flight response to an authority. Anyone can bow and it will mean the same even if the person doesnt believe it. (I believe actions are the intent) While lighting a candle, I cant see the connection behind it. No ease of pain. No submission like the child example. Its all intent but since I believe actions are intent, when the action (drinking the medicine) doesnt with the intent (because my stomach ache), it doesnt make sense to me.

Is that a good comparison?
 
Top