I believe Satan has brain washed most Christians/people.

[Ingledsva]

Babies born into depraved cultures where they may very well have been sacrificed to pagan gods or grown-up to sacrifice their own children was already void of freewill by humans who had given themselves over to evil.

You keep repeating the same crap.

The Hebrew also sacrificed their children.

And saying they COULD grow up to be sacrificed - is a silly reason to murder them.

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[InChrist]

You keep repeating the same crap.

The Hebrew also sacrificed their children.

And saying they COULD grow up to be sacrificed - is a silly reason to murder them.

*

I do not accept your contention that the Hebrews sacrificed their children, but if they did it was against the law of God punishable by death in Israel.
I am saying that when God passed judgment as He did on the Canaanite culture after 400 years of warning and time for repentance
(change) this judgment included everyone because the culture was wicked to the extreme and beyond hope, meaning there was no future or hope for even the children in such a culture. Children could also not very well survive on their own were they spared. Yet, the scriptures are clear enough that babies and little children go directly to be with the Lord. Again, this was a judgment call made by God which only He has the wisdom and prerogative to make.

 

[Ingledsva]

I do not accept your contention that the Hebrews sacrificed their children, but if they did it was against the law of God punishable by death in Israel.
I am saying that when God passed judgment as He did on the Canaanite culture after 400 years of warning and time for repentance
(change) this judgment included everyone because the culture was wicked to the extreme and beyond hope, meaning there was no future or hope for even the children in such a culture. Children could also not very well survive on their own were they spared. Yet, the scriptures are clear enough that babies and little children go directly to be with the Lord. Again, this was a judgment call made by God which only He has the wisdom and prerogative to make.

LOL! I've posted the Bible texts that say they sacrificed their children. Go back and read them.

It is pure BULL that there is no hope for children.

And obviously that isn't the only story of such God murder of the innocents.

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[InChrist]

LOL! I've posted the Bible texts that say they sacrificed their children. Go back and read them.

It is pure BULL that there is no hope for children.

And obviously that isn't the only story of such God murder of the innocents.

*

You can post them again (one at a time) because I do not recall them or tell me the post #.

Again, how do you know there was hope for children in a culture if you were not there?

In the accounts where God executed judgment on a culture or nation there was always warning and time for change or escape. So I think your continual charge against God of murdering innocents is unfounded because first God was judging a culture guilty of wickedness and secondly it is most likely that the innocents who knew of the God of Israel and heeded the warning had already repented or escaped before judgment occurred.

 

[InChrist]

Getting late..goodnight.

 

[Ingledsva]

You can post them again (one at a time) because I do not recall them or tell me the post #.

Again, how do you know there was hope for children in a culture if you were not there?

In the accounts where God executed judgment on a culture or nation there was always warning and time for change or escape. So I think your continual charge against God of murdering innocents is unfounded because first God was judging a culture guilty of wickedness and secondly it is most likely that the innocents who knew of the God of Israel and heeded the warning had already repented or escaped before judgment occurred.

Here are a few of them -

EZEKIEL 20:25-26 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good and ordinances whereby they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they set apart all that openeth the womb (First Born), that I might destroy them, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME. Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.29 -None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed;BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH. "…

In other words, the Melech to whom child-sacrifices were offered was Yahweh under another name. To uphold this view appeal is made in particular to Jer., vii, 31; xix, 5, and to Ezech., xx, 25-31."- Catholic Encyclopedia Jewish Ritual Murder, a Historical Investigation, by Hellmut Schramm, Ph.D

From Catholic Encyclopedia - "The custom of causing one's children to pass through the fire seems to have been general in the Northern Kingdom [IV (II) Kings, xvii, 17; Ezech. xxiii, 37], and it gradually grew in the Southern, encouraged by the royal example of Achaz (IV Kings, xvi, 3) and Manasses [IV (II) Kings, xvi, 6] till it became prevalent in the time of the prophet Jeremias (Jerem. xxxii, 35), when King Josias suppressed the worship of Moloch and defiled Tophet [IV (II) Kings, xxiii, 13 (10)]. It is not improbable that this worship was revived under Joakim and continued until the Babylonian Captivity …"

“In the week's Torah portion, G-d says about the Mishkan( Tabernacle) "V'neekdash Bichvodi", I will be made holy in my honor (loosely translated). The Talmud says to read it that "I will be made holy through my honored ones" referring to Aaron's 2 son's who were killed. Their death was part of the dedication of the Mishkan…” Hypermail Torah-Forum Archive: Re: Human Sacrifice

Micah vi. 7: "Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?"

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[Ingledsva]

Getting late..goodnight.

Goodnight.

*

 

[InChrist]

Here are a few of them -
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Wow, I think you are biblically illiterate which is understandable of someone who rants against God, but I just didn't realize anyone could have such poor comprehension, unless of course you are deliberately taking the verses out of context from the rest of the chapter (you wouldn't do that, would you?) to make it appear to say God endorses child sacrifice when the passage (and the entire OT) is actually shows the exact opposite...His intense aversion to such a practice.

Ezekiel 20:25-26 which says...
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.
or
Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”’

Therefore or wherefore means "because of something" or "consequently" and in this case the previous verses show that because the Israelites were not observing God's statues, judgments and Sabbaths God was angry and gave them over to unclean idolatry and the consequences...
Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them but they profaned My Sabbaths.(vs. 20:21) and because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.(vs.24)

Instead of obeying God's commands they were following the wicked idolatry and practices of pagan cultures or their pagan past, including child sacrifice (statues which He declared were not good, vs. 25) so God pronounced them unclean (because they caused all their firstborn to pass through fire-sacrificed them) and stated that He was going to make them desolate, vs. 26. If you would take the time to read the entire chapter it is quite clear that God considered the the House of Israel to be in rebellion, blaspheming and profaning His name, unfaithful, provoking Him and defiling themselves when they practiced such idolatry and abominable things as child sacrifice.

Exodus 22:29 ...You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.
I think it is inexcusable for any person who has read the book of Exodus to make such an uninformed claim that Exodus 22:29 speaks of human sacrifice.This verse was never intended to mean that the Israelites were supposed to sacrifice their firstborn sons to God. In fact, Exodus 13:13 says, “And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.” To redeem the firstborn son means that the Israelites were to give to the Lord five skekels of silver when the firstborn son was one month old (see Numbers 18:16). Moses explained that the reason was a memorial of the process by which God delivered the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 13:14-15).

Leviticus 27:29-29 Nevertheless no devoted offering that a man may devote to the Lord of all that he has, both man and beast, or the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted offering is most holy to the Lord.
It is really redundant to address such repeatedly erroneous assertions. The chapter from which you extracted this verse is about dedicating or devoting something to the Lord; land, hoses, animals, or people. It is not about sacrifice or killing.

Micah 5:6-8 With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Clearly the verse you again took out of context was a part of series of rhetorical questions meant to show that none of the above actually can make anyone adequately able to be in the presence of the Lord. So the idea you are trying to prove that God requires child sacrifice is invalid.

I would like to finally point out that human sacrifice besides being an abomination to God and strictly forbidden throughout the OT would never be accepted by God because every human being was and is sinful. Jesus Christ is the only exception

I also think some of the info you posted about Jewish ritual murder falls into the category of libel and age old anti-semetic lies.

 

[McBell]

Understandable that you wouldn't care what people say God says or that you wouldn't care what my God says, as if God was some creation of mine. But suppose there is a God who created all life and knows you like no other and cares about you reaching your potential and being all that He created you to be, would you still not care?

Until such time as said god revealed he existed I would reconsider my position.

 

[McBell]

As I said God does not commit genocide.

What would you call the whole flood incident?
Or perhaps you have some off the wall definition of the word "genocide"?

As the Creator of all life in the first place God holds the power of life or death for each person.

I do not agree with the "might makes right" line of thinking.
Care to try again?

In the biblical accounts where God determined the wickedness of a people had reached the extreme He executed what is called Judgment.

Ah, so you call it "judgement" when god commits genocide.

Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[InChrist]

What would you call the whole flood incident?
Or perhaps you have some off the wall definition of the word "genocide"?


I do not agree with the "might makes right" line of thinking.
Care to try again?


Ah, so you call it "judgement" when god commits genocide.

Thank you for clearing that up.

The flood was judgment. I don't agree might makes right either, but a Judge upholding the law and passing sentence on a crime is not only justified it is a necessity to preserve order. Would you have the same attitude you seem to be expressing here toward God against a judge in a courtroom who has the authority and obligation to pass judgment on a criminal?

 

[InChrist]

Until such time as said god revealed he existed I would reconsider my position.

Are you saying you see no indication at all of God's revealed existence?

 

[Ingledsva]

Wow, I think you are biblically illiterate which is understandable of someone who rants against God, but I just didn't realize anyone could have such poor comprehension, unless of course you are deliberately taking the verses out of context from the rest of the chapter (you wouldn't do that, would you?) to make it appear to say God endorses child sacrifice when the passage (and the entire OT) is actually shows the exact opposite...His intense aversion to such a practice.

ING -Pure bull-you know what! I said the Hebrew also practiced Child Sacrifice - and they DID!

Ezekiel 20:25-26 which says...
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.
or
Therefore I also gave them up to statutes that were not good, and judgments by which they could not live; and I pronounced them unclean because of their ritual gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire, that I might make them desolate and that they might know that I am the Lord.”’

Therefore or wherefore means "because of something" or "consequently" and in this case the previous verses show that because the Israelites were not observing God's statues, judgments and Sabbaths God was angry and gave them over to unclean idolatry and the consequences...
Notwithstanding, the children rebelled against Me; they did not walk in My statutes, and were not careful to observe My judgments, ‘which, if a man does, he shall live by them but they profaned My Sabbaths.(vs. 20:21) and because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, profaned My Sabbaths, and their eyes were fixed on their fathers’ idols.(vs.24)

ING - You can try to swing it any way you want! It says - I - polluted them - in that they caused to pass through the fire - all that openeth the womb - child sacrifice. That -I - might make them desolate.

Instead of obeying God's commands they were following the wicked idolatry and practices of pagan cultures or their pagan past, including child sacrifice (statues which He declared were not good, vs. 25) so God pronounced them unclean (because they caused all their firstborn to pass through fire-sacrificed them) and stated that He was going to make them desolate, vs. 26. If you would take the time to read the entire chapter it is quite clear that God considered the the House of Israel to be in rebellion, blaspheming and profaning His name, unfaithful, provoking Him and defiling themselves when they practiced such idolatry and abominable things as child sacrifice.

ING - So what? They had child sacrifice. And if you bothered to follow some of the links, or check out the books listed, - you would find you cant blame it on other groups.

Exodus 22:29 ...You shall not delay to offer the first of your ripe produce and your juices. The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.
I think it is inexcusable for any person who has read the book of Exodus to make such an uninformed claim that Exodus 22:29 speaks of human sacrifice.This verse was never intended to mean that the Israelites were supposed to sacrifice their firstborn sons to God. In fact, Exodus 13:13 says, “And all the firstborn of man among your sons you shall redeem.” To redeem the firstborn son means that the Israelites were to give to the Lord five skekels of silver when the firstborn son was one month old (see Numbers 18:16). Moses explained that the reason was a memorial of the process by which God delivered the Israelites from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 13:14-15).

ING - This answer of yours is pure bull. You conveniently leave out the other texts which show exactly what it means.

Exodus 22: 29 –Thou shalt not delay TO OFFER the FIRST of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: THE FIRSTBORN OF THY SONS SHALT THOU GIVE UNTO ME.

Leviticus 27: 28, 29 Notwithstanding NO devoted thing, that a man shall devote unto the Lord of all that he hath, BOTH OF "MAN" and beast, and of the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed: every devoted thing is most holy unto the Lord.29 -None devoted, which shall be devoted of men shall be redeemed; BUT SHALL SURELY BE PUT TO DEATH. "…

It says both man and beast that are devoted to God shall NOT BE REDEMED - but shall be put to death. That is very clear.

Leviticus 27:29-29 Nevertheless no devoted offering that a man may devote to the Lord of all that he has, both man and beast, or the field of his possession, shall be sold or redeemed; every devoted offering is most holy to the Lord.
It is really redundant to address such repeatedly erroneous assertions. The chapter from which you extracted this verse is about dedicating or devoting something to the Lord; land, hoses, animals, or people. It is not about sacrifice or killing.

ING - BULL! See above - and here is 27:29 again -

Lev 27:29 None devoted, which shall be devoted of men, shall be redeemed; but shall surely be put to death.

Micah 5:6-8 With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Clearly the verse you again took out of context was a part of series of rhetorical questions meant to show that none of the above actually can make anyone adequately able to be in the presence of the Lord. So the idea you are trying to prove that God requires child sacrifice is invalid.

I would like to finally point out that human sacrifice besides being an abomination to God and strictly forbidden throughout the OT would never be accepted by God because every human being was and is sinful. Jesus Christ is the only exception

I also think some of the info you posted about Jewish ritual murder falls into the category of libel and age old anti-semetic lies.

EXPAND HIS to read all answers -

LOL! It is not out of context. It shows they had child sacrifice - and in times of stress - though of doing child sacrifice.

It was not always forbidden. Did you miss the Jewish texts stating the sons were killed as part of the dedication of a building?

Did you miss all that other material, and books, telling us about their child sacrifice?

Jewish sources, even Catholic Encyclopedia.
By the way - that only Jesus as sacrifice is ridiculous - since they had animal sacrifice that was lower than any human sacrifice.


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[Shadow Wolf]

Are you saying you see no indication at all of God's revealed existence?

I see it absolutely no where. Childhood cancer, ISIS, drunk drivers killing families, starvation, extreme poverty, large chunks of the global population not even having access to clean drinking water, nuclear weapons, we live in the middle of a cosmic shooting gallery, the deadliness of solar radiation, external male gonads (they make absolutely no sense), malaria, bubonic plague, leprosy, polio, war. biological weapons - I do not see any "revealed existence" for a god who allegedly looks over us, loves us, provides for, and cares about us. If that was the case, why would we be so utterly helpless against nature?

 

[InChrist]

I see it absolutely no where. Childhood cancer, ISIS, drunk drivers killing families, starvation, extreme poverty, large chunks of the global population not even having access to clean drinking water, nuclear weapons, we live in the middle of a cosmic shooting gallery, the deadliness of solar radiation, external male gonads (they make absolutely no sense), malaria, bubonic plague, leprosy, polio, war. biological weapons - I do not see any "revealed existence" for a god who allegedly looks over us, loves us, provides for, and cares about us. If that was the case, why would we be so utterly helpless against nature?

Why do you choose to blame God for the problems you've listed above rather than the sinfulness of humanity and the impact such sin has upon this planet? I think the mere fact that any of us are still even alive at all, even in luxury enough to chat about stuff online, reveals that God is sustaining things to an incredible degree despite the sin and destructiveness of humanity.

 

[InChrist]

EXPAND HIS to read all answers -

LOL! It is not out of context. It shows they had child sacrifice - and in times of stress - though of doing child sacrifice.

It was not always forbidden. Did you miss the Jewish texts stating the sons were killed as part of the dedication of a building?

Did you miss all that other material, and books, telling us about their child sacrifice?

Jewish sources, even Catholic Encyclopedia.
By the way - that only Jesus as sacrifice is ridiculous - since they had animal sacrifice that was lower than any human sacrifice.


*

Child sacrifice was an abomination and consistently forbidden by God. If some did practice this then it blatantly shows how sinful humans are, even those who have an awareness of God's laws, yet deliberately disobey.
The Catholic Encyclopedia or human commentaries do not negate the fact that God forbid child sacrifice.
Animals are not capable of SIN, as are humans. Animals were a picture or foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of the perfect, sinless life of Jesus Christ who sacrificed His life for all the sinful people of the world.

 

[viole]

The flood was judgment. I don't agree might makes right either, but a Judge upholding the law and passing sentence on a crime is not only justified it is a necessity to preserve order. Would you have the same attitude you seem to be expressing here toward God against a judge in a courtroom who has the authority and obligation to pass judgment on a criminal?

The judges do not pass judgement to the criminal's babies and his pets, usually. If he did, he would be considered a crazy psychopath by basically anyone.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

Child sacrifice was an abomination and consistently forbidden by God. If some did practice this then it blatantly shows how sinful humans are, even those who have an awareness of God's laws, yet deliberately disobey.
The Catholic Encyclopedia or human commentaries do not negate the fact that God forbid child sacrifice.
Animals are not capable of SIN, as are humans. Animals were a picture or foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice of the perfect, sinless life of Jesus Christ who sacrificed His life for all the sinful people of the world.

And none of that negates the FACT that they did it!

*

 

[McBell]

Are you saying you see no indication at all of God's revealed existence?

That is correct.

 

[McBell]

The flood was judgment. I don't agree might makes right either, but a Judge upholding the law and passing sentence on a crime is not only justified it is a necessity to preserve order. Would you have the same attitude you seem to be expressing here toward God against a judge in a courtroom who has the authority and obligation to pass judgment on a criminal?

If the judge decided that the only course of action in the case is to kill everyone save one family, yes.

See, unlike yourself, I do not give god a free pass.