Nada
#
Beautiful...........
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Watchtower Governing Body: Are They The Exclusive Channel For God??
- Thread starter katiemygirl
- Start date
Beautiful...........
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Hi Bible Student,
Will you address my post? It was in response to your post. Here it is again.
Okay, so you believe there are two classes of christians, the 144,000 and the great crowd. Do I have this right?
I'm curious if you see the 144,000 as a literal or figurative number?
Nada
#
Oh, I am sorry Katiemygirl.I got caught up.I will read it and answer as fast as I can...give me a bit please.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Not a problem. Take your time. I have to go out for a bit.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Bible Student, I want you to know that I do not advocate anyone separating from Jehovah's Witnesses.
That would not be a wise move in the least. So he used them as that locust of Joel. That means they are a people who he saw could take it, for there was much to be suffered in that being as everyone desires to exterminate what they see as pests.
But God also uses the foolish things and the ignoble things of this world, transforming them into something beautiful that all who glory in their own wisdom may become ashamed.
And I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they are God's people, far braver than most of the rest.
That would not be a wise move in the least. So he used them as that locust of Joel. That means they are a people who he saw could take it, for there was much to be suffered in that being as everyone desires to exterminate what they see as pests.
But God also uses the foolish things and the ignoble things of this world, transforming them into something beautiful that all who glory in their own wisdom may become ashamed.
And I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that they are God's people, far braver than most of the rest.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Wondering if you feel the same about Mormons, Adventists, Baptists, Catholics and the rest?
Nada
#
Yes,that is correct.Thes are two separate groups with different purposes.Both Christians but one is designated for heaven and the others for earth.
Yes,I do believe that it is a literal number.John states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number.He goes on to describe a second group,"a great crowd" without a definite number.
This will explain it.
"After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as “a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.” This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming “great tribulation,” which will destroy the present wicked world.—Revelation 7:9, 14.
Note, however, the contrast that John draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, “those who were sealed,” has a definite number. However, the second group, “a great crowd,” is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally."
LIBRARY
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
The key is that individuals within these organizations need to become ready to submit to being shepherded to the fountains of the water of life: Revelation 7:17 "For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes."
So we see that wiping away of their tears process begins as we enter the millennial period of the reign of Christ's kingdom upon this earth with the goal of recreating all things pertaining to the earth. There is where the change for most really begins, but now, beforehand, they have to be made ready to willingly allow that.
Scripturally speaking, there are certain things that any organization in the flesh would have to be doing (and also give up doing) so as to not compromise their allegiance to Jehovah. Their willing allegiance exclusively in Jehovah through Jesus is the ultimate determining factor, for that is the basis upon which God permits them to enter into the millennium set aside for re-creation of this earth and all people and things which will ultimately be left forever upon it..
The truth is that even though we may believe we live God's love and that is what will get us there, we don't really come to know God's love in order to love as he would have us to love until he has our undivided attention. And many things subtly work to prevent us from doing that.
Last edited:
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
[QUOTE="If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between those two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally."[/QUOTE]
That sounds like a good possibility. But in the absence of it specifically saying the number is literal and taking into mind that Revelation is a book presented in signs, we might be over-stepping a bit to claim that it has to be literal.
Once those were gathered it would be true that man could see who he has gathered and so know their number. But as to the great crowd that is a bit of a different story being as they are not sealed and so counted.
That sounds like a good possibility. But in the absence of it specifically saying the number is literal and taking into mind that Revelation is a book presented in signs, we might be over-stepping a bit to claim that it has to be literal.
Once those were gathered it would be true that man could see who he has gathered and so know their number. But as to the great crowd that is a bit of a different story being as they are not sealed and so counted.
Nada
#
"That sounds like a good possibility. But in the absence of it specifically saying the number is literal and taking into mind that Revelation is a book presented in signs, we might be over-stepping a bit to claim that it has to be literal."-Mountain Climber
You are correct that much of Revelation is symbolic.Metaphors.But as far as the number 144,000,that is a literal number.We can see this to be true just by reading and understanding.John mentions two groups.One has a specific number.The other does not.
You are correct that much of Revelation is symbolic.Metaphors.But as far as the number 144,000,that is a literal number.We can see this to be true just by reading and understanding.John mentions two groups.One has a specific number.The other does not.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
I agree that those do become a specific number as only so many can be set apart as rulers, else there would be utter chaos.
It is a minor detail, but I believe that if it turns out we have error, then let it be on the side of caution which is modest and humble.
The important thing is that it is a set apart group.
Nada
#
@Mountain_Climber
Yes,much of Revelation is symbolism.For instance when it mentions beast,this does not refer to an animal.It represents a government opposed to Jehovahs arrangement.Wings means Jehovah is aiding his followers and providing a safe path away from evil.Mountains can mean Governments.Just as described in the book of Daniel where the rock representing Jehovah smashes the feet of the statue.Islands can mean far way kingdoms,distant lands.Seas and waters can mean many peoples.Just as it is explained in Revelation.
Revelation 17:1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
Revelation 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
So we can see that it is symbolic.
The 144,000 is literal though.
Yes,much of Revelation is symbolism.For instance when it mentions beast,this does not refer to an animal.It represents a government opposed to Jehovahs arrangement.Wings means Jehovah is aiding his followers and providing a safe path away from evil.Mountains can mean Governments.Just as described in the book of Daniel where the rock representing Jehovah smashes the feet of the statue.Islands can mean far way kingdoms,distant lands.Seas and waters can mean many peoples.Just as it is explained in Revelation.
Revelation 17:1 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits by many waters.
Revelation 17:15 Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
So we can see that it is symbolic.
The 144,000 is literal though.
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
Yes, and the interpretation of the Wild Beast of Revelation as well as what Babylon represents (in a spiritual sense, of course) I see it the same as you do.
One notable difference between that 144,000 and the great crowd is that the 144,000 remained virgins. In other words, that group alone was free from spiritual fornication. By the great crowd's previous involvement with that fornication their number is impossible for man to know.
I knew I would get that worded right after ten thousand tries.
Not a lie, just a hyperbole.
Last edited:
Nada
#
So let me get this straight,you do not believe in a literal 144,000?Yes, and the interpretation of the Wild Beast of Revelation as well as what Babylon represents (in a spiritual sense, of course) I see it the same as you do.
One notable difference between that 144,000 and the great crowd is that the 144,000 remained virgins. In other words, that group alone was free from spiritual fornication. By the great crowd's previous involvement with that fornication their number is impossible for man to know.
I knew I would get that worded right after ten thousand tries.
Not a lie, just a hyperbole.
Jesus' sheep believe in God.
JWs base their faith on reason. True Christians base their faith on Jesus Christ the son of God.
Nada
#
Did you ever disassociate yourself from the Jehovahs Witnesses? Are you still going to meetings?
Why not ask your sister online? She knows everything.
Nada
#
Seeing he put the train off the track I have a question. That Marlon Brando picture is from The God Father. Isn't it? That is a violent movie. Are YOU still going to meetings?
Mountain_Climber
Active Member
On the side of modesty I would not claim it is or is not a literal number, being it is no where specifically stated to be. So I do not believe it is figurative and i do not believe it is literal. I patiently wait to find out.
What I do believe is that there is a specific small number who as the first fruits of the harvest are elected to serve in Christ under the covenant made to David by Jehovah. That Christ has shared that glory with them as his brothers born directly of the same Father as was the first Adam.