paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Theists and Atheists alike please read the chapters and discuss.
Regards
Regards
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Judaism: no mass revelation of G-d with Jews mentioned in Exodus Chapter 19 and 20
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
Why?
We don't need a reading assignment. That's not how conversations work.
Why don't you just begin a debate instead?
We don't need a reading assignment. That's not how conversations work.
Why don't you just begin a debate instead?
Tumah
Veteran Member
Because he tried this particular one and he was answered most thoroughly.
Well you know what they say, 'if at first you don't succeed, try, try again". So here he is trying again...
...with the same question.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
For ready reference of my friends here I provide Chapter 19 below:
Exodus - Chapter 19
1. In the third month of the children of Israel's departure from Egypt, on this day they arrived in the desert of Sinai.
2. They journeyed from Rephidim, and they arrived in the desert of Sinai, and they encamped in the desert, and Israel encamped there opposite the mountain.
3. Moses ascended to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "So shall you say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel,
4. You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me.
5. And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.
6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."
7. Moses came and summoned the elders of Israel and placed before them all these words that the Lord had commanded him.
8. And all the people replied in unison and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we shall do!" and Moses took the words of the people back to the Lord.
9. And the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever." And Moses relayed the words of the people to the Lord.
10. And the Lord said to Moses, "Go to the people and prepare them today and tomorrow, and they shall wash their garments.
11. And they shall be prepared for the third day, for on the third day, the Lord will descend before the eyes of all the people upon Mount Sinai.
12. And you shall set boundaries for the people around, saying, Beware of ascending the mountain or touching its edge; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.'
13. No hand shall touch it, for he shall be stoned or cast down; whether man or beast, he shall not live. When the ram's horn sounds a long, drawn out blast, they may ascend the mountain."
14. So Moses descended from the mountain to the people, and he prepared the people, and they washed their garments.
15. He said to the people, "Be ready for three days; do not go near a woman."
16.It came to pass on the third day when it was morning, that there were thunder claps and lightning flashes, and a thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very powerful blast of a shofar, and the entire nation that was in the camp shuddered.
17. Moses brought the people out toward God from the camp, and they stood at the bottom of the mountain.
18. And the entire Mount Sinai smoked because the Lord had descended upon it in fire, and its smoke ascended like the smoke of the kiln, and the entire mountain quaked violently.
19. The sound of the shofar grew increasingly stronger; Moses would speak and God would answer him with a voice.
20. The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain, and the Lord summoned Moses to the peak of the mountain, and Moses ascended.
21. The Lord said to Moses, "Go down, warn the people lest they break [their formation to go nearer] to the Lord, and many of them will fall.
22. And also, the priests who go near to the Lord shall prepare themselves, lest the Lord wreak destruction upon them."
23. And Moses said to the Lord, "The people cannot ascend to Mount Sinai, for You warned us saying, Set boundaries for the mountain and sanctify it.' "
24. But the Lord said to him, "Go, descend, and [then] you shall ascend, and Aaron with you, but the priests and the populace shall not break [their formation] to ascend to the Lord, lest He wreak destruction upon them."
25. So Moses went down to the people and said [this] to them.
Exodus - Chapter 19 (Parshah Yitro) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Regards
Exodus - Chapter 19
1. In the third month of the children of Israel's departure from Egypt, on this day they arrived in the desert of Sinai.
2. They journeyed from Rephidim, and they arrived in the desert of Sinai, and they encamped in the desert, and Israel encamped there opposite the mountain.
3. Moses ascended to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "So shall you say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel,
4. You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and [how] I bore you on eagles' wings, and I brought you to Me.
5. And now, if you obey Me and keep My covenant, you shall be to Me a treasure out of all peoples, for Mine is the entire earth.
6. And you shall be to Me a kingdom of princes and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the children of Israel."
7. Moses came and summoned the elders of Israel and placed before them all these words that the Lord had commanded him.
8. And all the people replied in unison and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we shall do!" and Moses took the words of the people back to the Lord.
9. And the Lord said to Moses, "Behold, I am coming to you in the thickness of the cloud, in order that the people hear when I speak to you, and they will also believe in you forever." And Moses relayed the words of the people to the Lord.
10. And the Lord said to Moses, "Go to the people and prepare them today and tomorrow, and they shall wash their garments.
11. And they shall be prepared for the third day, for on the third day, the Lord will descend before the eyes of all the people upon Mount Sinai.
12. And you shall set boundaries for the people around, saying, Beware of ascending the mountain or touching its edge; whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.'
13. No hand shall touch it, for he shall be stoned or cast down; whether man or beast, he shall not live. When the ram's horn sounds a long, drawn out blast, they may ascend the mountain."
14. So Moses descended from the mountain to the people, and he prepared the people, and they washed their garments.
15. He said to the people, "Be ready for three days; do not go near a woman."
16.It came to pass on the third day when it was morning, that there were thunder claps and lightning flashes, and a thick cloud was upon the mountain, and a very powerful blast of a shofar, and the entire nation that was in the camp shuddered.
17. Moses brought the people out toward God from the camp, and they stood at the bottom of the mountain.
18. And the entire Mount Sinai smoked because the Lord had descended upon it in fire, and its smoke ascended like the smoke of the kiln, and the entire mountain quaked violently.
19. The sound of the shofar grew increasingly stronger; Moses would speak and God would answer him with a voice.
20. The Lord descended upon Mount Sinai, to the peak of the mountain, and the Lord summoned Moses to the peak of the mountain, and Moses ascended.
21. The Lord said to Moses, "Go down, warn the people lest they break [their formation to go nearer] to the Lord, and many of them will fall.
22. And also, the priests who go near to the Lord shall prepare themselves, lest the Lord wreak destruction upon them."
23. And Moses said to the Lord, "The people cannot ascend to Mount Sinai, for You warned us saying, Set boundaries for the mountain and sanctify it.' "
24. But the Lord said to him, "Go, descend, and [then] you shall ascend, and Aaron with you, but the priests and the populace shall not break [their formation] to ascend to the Lord, lest He wreak destruction upon them."
25. So Moses went down to the people and said [this] to them.
Exodus - Chapter 19 (Parshah Yitro) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
For ready reference of my friends here I provide Chapter 19 below:
Exodus - Chapter 20
1.God spoke all these words, to respond:
2."I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3.You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.
4.You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5.You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me,
6.and perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations], to those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments.
7.You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain, for the Lord will not hold blameless anyone who takes His name in vain.
8.Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it.
9.Six days may you work and perform all your labor,
10.but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is in your cities.
11.For [in] six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.
12.Honor your father and your mother, in order that your days be lengthened on the land that the Lord, your God, is giving you.
13.You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
14.You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or whatever belongs to your neighbor."
15.And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.
16.They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
17.But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin."
18.The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.
19.The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.
20.You shall not make [images of anything that is] with Me. Gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves.
21.An altar of earth you shall make for Me, and you shall slaughter beside it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle. Wherever I allow My name to be mentioned, I will come to you and bless you.
22.And when you make for Me an altar of stones, you shall not build them of hewn stones, lest you wield your sword upon it and desecrate it.
23.And you shall not ascend with steps upon My altar, so that your nakedness shall not be exposed upon it.' "
Exodus - Chapter 20 (Parshah Yitro) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Regards
Exodus - Chapter 20
1.God spoke all these words, to respond:
2."I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3.You shall not have the gods of others in My presence.
4.You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.
5.You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord, your God, am a zealous God, Who visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me,
6.and perform loving kindness to thousands [of generations], to those who love Me and to those who keep My commandments.
7.You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain, for the Lord will not hold blameless anyone who takes His name in vain.
8.Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it.
9.Six days may you work and perform all your labor,
10.but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is in your cities.
11.For [in] six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and sanctified it.
12.Honor your father and your mother, in order that your days be lengthened on the land that the Lord, your God, is giving you.
13.You shall not murder. You shall not commit adultery. You shall not steal. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
14.You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, his manservant, his maidservant, his ox, his donkey, or whatever belongs to your neighbor."
15.And all the people saw the voices and the torches, the sound of the shofar, and the smoking mountain, and the people saw and trembled; so they stood from afar.
16.They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
17.But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin."
18.The people remained far off, but Moses drew near to the opaque darkness, where God was.
19.The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.
20.You shall not make [images of anything that is] with Me. Gods of silver or gods of gold you shall not make for yourselves.
21.An altar of earth you shall make for Me, and you shall slaughter beside it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your cattle. Wherever I allow My name to be mentioned, I will come to you and bless you.
22.And when you make for Me an altar of stones, you shall not build them of hewn stones, lest you wield your sword upon it and desecrate it.
23.And you shall not ascend with steps upon My altar, so that your nakedness shall not be exposed upon it.' "
Exodus - Chapter 20 (Parshah Yitro) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Regards
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Paarsurrey, I have a better idea for you instead of wasting time here, namely why don't you talk to your fellow Muslims about not killing others, including even their own fellow Muslims. Seems that this would be a much more fruitful use of your time, especially since last year roughly 80% of all people killed globally in conflicts around the world were committed by Muslims.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
rosends
Well-Known Member
The statement to Moses is to relate to the people that they have seen that God spoke directly to them. This would explain why they said, after 14 or so verses of "God spoke all these words"
They said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear, but let God not speak with us lest we die."
You might also want to consider the reference in this post.
@paarsurrey , the options here are fairly straighforward:
- You don't accept the verse as accurate, in which case your thread is nonsensical.
- You believe the verse is accurate and further contend that G-d was commanding Moses to lie to the children of Israel, in which case this thread is really about your curiously disrespectful view of G-d.
- You believe that G-d was being truthful when seeking to remind the children of Israel "that from the heavens I have spoken with you," in which case you have shattered your own premise.
dantech
Well-Known Member
Checkmate!
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes. And what is it addressing?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
That neither Moses mentioned from his mouth nor G-d.
It is narrators/scribes/clergy who are telling a story that never happened, neither Word of G-d nor Word of Moses.
Please give ten points from the chapters Exodus 19,20 from the text to establish your viewpoint . Any Jew or non-Jew, please.
Regards
Tumah
Veteran Member
What you are saying doesn't make any sense.
The stated purpose of your thread is to prove that there is no mass revelation of G-d to the Jews in Exodus 19 and 20.
I've proven that there is a mass revelation spoken about in Exodus 20.
Your counter-argument is that Exodus 20 is a work of fiction. This argument is out of context of the stated purpose of this thread.
Rather than arguing that there is no mass revelation in Exodus 20, your original argument should have been that Exodus 20 is a work of fiction.
I think you should go back and read what Jayhawker wrote above.
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
Paar..
The text is clearly indicating that it was a mass revelation, because the people in the crowd knew that something was taking place on the mountain. They witnessed some affect of the Deity. That is why they were waiting for Moses to bring back the messages from G-d.
The text is clearly indicating that it was a mass revelation, because the people in the crowd knew that something was taking place on the mountain. They witnessed some affect of the Deity. That is why they were waiting for Moses to bring back the messages from G-d.
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"God spoke all these words"
Chapter 19 does not contain the above words, not even once.
The last verse of the Chapter 19 ends:
19:25. So Moses went down to the people and said [this] to them.
So, it is Moses conveying the message from YHWH to the Jews while the Jews have been stayed away afar down the Mountain.
Chapter 20 only narrates what G-d told Moses on the mountain for Jews, so the Jews got the message the indirect way.
Chapter 20 mentions:
1.God spoke all these words, to respond:
19.The Lord said to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, You have seen that from the heavens I have spoken with you.
Regards
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Thank you for your admission that G-d did not talk with the Jews enmasse directly.
Regards
rosends
Well-Known Member
That's true. Chapter 20 does...the chapter which includes exactly what God said.
Well, that's how you understand it. The way I understand it, verse 25 indicates that Moses related the warnings which he received from God prior to the verse and which he was directed to relate to the people (in verse 21, "Descend, warn the people"). Otherwise, there is no indication that Moses related that warning to the people.
Once the people had been warned to stay away, God speaks, beginning in 20:1 to the people. The people have a bad reaction to hearing the words directly from God and say so in 16. God, in verse 19 reaffirms through Moses that he people did hear from God directly. Deut 4:12 reaffirms this.