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Can you eat meat and be Buddhist ?

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
..but for us to support the killing of sentient beings by purchasing the fruits of anothers ill deeds , then we are certainly implicated in their wrong doing as we actively encourage them to make a business of killing .
to encorage another to commit ill deeds is prehaps more wrong than accepting the responcibility one self , ...as it amounts to double Ahimsa , ....

Yes, if we buy meat we are expecting somebody else to do the slaughter and butchery, which is wrong livelihood in Buddhism. We are paying somebody to kill and butcher on our behalf.
 
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ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Spiny ji

Yes, if we buy meat we are expecting somebody else to do the slaughter and butchery, which is wrong livelihood in Buddhism. We are paying somebody to kill and butcher on our behalf.

exactly , it would be better to do the killing oneself and to accept the concequences , .... than to allow another to accept the concequences for you , ......by doing this you are encouraging another into wrong livelihood , .....
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@ratikala: no one is supposed to create harm, but we all have to deal with real situations nonetheless. It is definitely the case that our lack of correct understanding and skill leads us to in practice choosing who and how to hurt - when we have a good grasp of the likely consequences of our actions to begin with.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Sure, but feeding grain to cows and then eating the cows is a very inefficient way of feeding people, it means that much more grain needs to be grown, which in turn means many more small creatures will be killed in the fields, plus the cows of course. If we want to minimise harm then buying meat seems like an odd decision, particularly when non-meat foods are available and sufficient.

There is no prohibition on eating meat in Buddhism, but I think there is quite a lot which would give us pause for thought when it comes to our dietary preferences. There is the 3-fold rule, the principle of which is clear. There is the first precept, and there is butchery as wrong livelihood. There is Right Intention and there is developing compassion. And so on.

Yes. I'm not arguing against vegetarianism. I simply want to point out that even if you give up meat, suffering is involved in providing your food. It serves as another lesson in how deeply dukkha is rooted in our lives and provides yet another reason to escape the cycle of samsara. There is no reason to pretend otherwise.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
If someone is truly interested in minimizing animal suffering, they need to get involved in their community. Advocate for no-kill animal shelters in your city. When you want a cat or dog, rescue them from a shelter instead of buying from a breeder or store. Advocate for more oversight and regulation of the meat industry. Advocate for laws strengthening animal cruelty punishments. Volunteer at an animal shelter or vet clinic. Get involved with a rescue group. The solutions involve working with others to change society. Making a personal decision to not eat meat may make you feel better about yourself; but, it will not result in one less animal being slaughtered. Our economic system has transformed animals into commodities, as long as that view goes unchallenged, animal slaughter will not end.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram

@ratikala: no one is supposed to create harm, but we all have to deal with real situations nonetheless. It is definitely the case that our lack of correct understanding and skill leads us to in practice choosing who and how to hurt - when we have a good grasp of the likely consequences of our actions to begin with.

as far as I am concerned there are many lay Buddhists in Buddhist comunities who traditionaly eat meat and there the consequences of meat eating are not even considered they are simply following in the traditions of their comunities , ....

however we as outsiders who make the interlectual choice to addopt Buddhism , therefore we need to think very carefully about which level we take it upon , if Buddhism advocates non harm then we should consider our actions very carefully , particularly here in the west where food is plentifull and we have the luxury of choice we are in the position to eat healthily and avoid causing harm to other sentient beings . .....this inded is a fortunate birth , .....if we do not use it wisely there are chances that we will not receive such good fortune again for a very long time .
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
namaskaram Von bek ji

If someone is truly interested in minimizing animal suffering, they need to get involved in their community. Advocate for no-kill animal shelters in your city. When you want a cat or dog, rescue them from a shelter instead of buying from a breeder or store. Advocate for more oversight and regulation of the meat industry. Advocate for laws strengthening animal cruelty punishments. Volunteer at an animal shelter or vet clinic. Get involved with a rescue group.

your advocating volunteering to improve the wellbeing of abandoned animals is laudable and I congratulate you for it , but think of the benifit of doing such work and also folowing a vegetarian diet , ....

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and without resorting to genetic modification !​



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The solutions involve working with others to change society. Making a personal decision to not eat meat may make you feel better about yourself; but .......

Hee Hee , I am working to change society , I dont have to do something to make my self feel better about my self , I just have to follow Dharma , I considder it my duty , .....:p

but, it will not result in one less animal being slaughtered.Our economic system has transformed animals into commodities, as long as that view goes unchallenged, animal slaughter will not end.

apparently the average American eats 2,000 lb of food per year , ....so if the proportion is , ....30% red meat , ..that is 600 lbs of meat , ...200lbs of fish , chicken and eggs , ....unless you are eating whales that is a lot of fish and quite a lot of chickens , ....then look at all that dairy , .....you got to kill the calf to get all that milk !!!

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so I recon in the last 30 years I havnt eaten a small farm yard , .....

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600lbs of meat a year , the average weight of a lamb at slaughter acording to cornell university 80 lb and most of that is skin and bone , therefore yealds no more than 40lb flesh , ....that is 15 lambs a year , ......aproximatly , .....

so correction in the last 30 years I havent eaten a Large farm yard , .......

as long as that view goes unchallenged, animal slaughter will not end

well I'm chalenging it here and now !
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
well I'm chalenging it here and now !

Good. Of course, responding to posts on RF doesn't challenge the system. What are some concrete steps you might suggest to minimize animal suffering on a systemic (not personal) level? For instance, I support a ban on all artificial growth hormones being used in dairy cattle. It leads to abnormal udder development, with intense swelling and discomfort for the poor cow, to say the least. (This is also an example of how the logic of our economic system encourages such terrible practices as greater milk production will garner an increase in profits. If the only code underlying your decisions is how to maximize profit, why WOULD you care about the negative effects of your actions on the animals?)
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I simply want to point out that even if you give up meat, suffering is involved in providing your food.

Of course, but not buying meat means we're choosing not to create additional suffering. That's the principle behind the 3-fold rule.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
oh dont worry , I dont just respond to it on RF , you have to chalenge thinking where ever you meet it ! ....when ever the oppertunity arrises ! ....no Im not a plaqard waving fully paid up Green party menber because the Green party round here are the biggest bunch of meat munching organic beer swilling nimbies you ever did meet , ....

Grrrrrrr, ... dont even let me think about it , ....at the moment there aplications popping up everywhere over here for monsterous industrial chicken units , .....so there have been moves afoot to get these stoped , most objections are on enviromental grounds , ...no one wants their pretty little veiw dirtied up , ..and lots of little nice people suddenly care about fish and newts , ....so I just do my reaserch and come up with some genuine well thought out objections , it is better to go befreind a politician and a planing officer , speak reasonably with them , ..gather plenty of information and get it into the right places , ...rather than rant and rave out on the street , .....I save my ranting and raving to wind up some of the local nimbies ...''who ask excuse me please will you sign our partition '', .....NO! ...... ''oh why not , dont you care about the enviroment ? '' , .......so I politely ask , ..which do you care about most the enviroment or the chickens ?, ....''Oh we care about both '' , ...do you eat chickens I ask , .....''yes but not ones from battery farms '', ....ok you give up eating chickens and I will sign your form , ......I dont even bother to tell them that I have allready submitted a my objection letters , ...:D ....and one can allways get an anonomous face book page and rev up the local councilors a bit , ...:D

it is difficult to change people or to chalenge their ideas but it dosent hurt to make them think , ...who knows if one person changes his her attitude then it has been worthwhile :p
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
What are some concrete steps you might suggest to minimize animal suffering on a systemic (not personal) level?

for instance I wrote a paper for a magazine on the dairy industry , ...an animal loving freind offered to type it up for me , ....(this was before I had a computer) .....she came back to me in a state of shock , she vowed only to buy from genuine organic farms in future , ....I campaigned in our temple to move away from average dairy produced milk and go for organic milk , ..this was before Ahimsa milk even became available , ....wow was I un popular for suggesting it , ...but little steps work , ..many temples are now stressing Ahimsa milk only , .....and support any other freinds doing similar work , ....
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
oh dont worry , I dont just respond to it on RF , you have to chalenge thinking where ever you meet it ! ....when ever the oppertunity arrises ! ....no Im not a plaqard waving fully paid up Green party menber because the Green party round here are the biggest bunch of meat munching organic beer swilling nimbies you ever did meet , ....

Grrrrrrr, ... dont even let me think about it , ....at the moment there aplications popping up everywhere over here for monsterous industrial chicken units , .....so there have been moves afoot to get these stoped , most objections are on enviromental grounds , ...no one wants their pretty little veiw dirtied up , ..and lots of little nice people suddenly care about fish and newts , ....so I just do my reaserch and come up with some genuine well thought out objections , it is better to go befreind a politician and a planing officer , speak reasonably with them , ..gather plenty of information and get it into the right places , ...rather than rant and rave out on the street , .....I save my ranting and raving to wind up some of the local nimbies ...''who ask excuse me please will you sign our partition '', .....NO! ...... ''oh why not , dont you care about the enviroment ? '' , .......so I politely ask , ..which do you care about most the enviroment or the chickens ?, ....''Oh we care about both '' , ...do you eat chickens I ask , .....''yes but not ones from battery farms '', ....ok you give up eating chickens and I will sign your form , ......I dont even bother to tell them that I have allready submitted a my objection letters , ...:D ....and one can allways get an anonomous face book page and rev up the local councilors a bit , ...:D

it is difficult to change people or to chalenge their ideas but it dosent hurt to make them think , ...who knows if one person changes his her attitude then it has been worthwhile :p

Now, that's what I'm talking about!
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
and do vegan cooking for some special events , ....just so people can get a taste for how nicely a vegan can eat , ...
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
Of course, but not buying meat means we're choosing not to create additional suffering. That's the principle behind the 3-fold rule.

Only if the animal in question would have been slaughtered specifically for you. (Which is not the case in a supermarket. The meat you see on the shelves comes from animals already dead, not slaughtered upon order.) If it were slaughtered on order, abstention from meat would be a choice to not create additional suffering. Let me give an analogy to clarify what I'm saying. If you had lived in the American South when slavery was legal, simply choosing to personally own no slaves would have done little to nothing in actually ending the practice. You would have to get involved in the abolition movement to really cause a change. (Among other actions.)
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
some one in our local town got threatened by one of the farmers , so he knuckled under and with drew his objections , ...

Oh I wish they had treatened me , ....I would put a big sign up in the window If this window gets smashed or the building burnt down we all know who did it , .....Name and shame , ....he even saw me photographing his lorries breaking the law , but I dont think he would dare because it wouldnt be worth it , ...
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
Only if the animal in question would have been slaughtered specifically for you. (Which is not the case in a supermarket. The meat you see on the shelves comes from animals already dead, not slaughtered upon order.) If it were slaughtered on order, abstention from meat would be a choice to not create additional suffering. Let me give an analogy to clarify what I'm saying. If you had lived in the American South when slavery was legal, simply choosing to personally own no slaves would have done little to nothing in actually ending the practice. You would have to get involved in the abolition movement to really cause a change. (Among other actions.)
sorry No , ...if every one refused on moral grounds the trade would stop , .....Ok it takes years but one has to lead by example , ....

and you missed the point made in a previous post if you buy from the killer you are supporting the trade , you are actively encouraging anither to comitt ill deeds , ....this is another form of harm .
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
some one in our local town got threatened by one of the farmers , so he knuckled under and with drew his objections , ...

Oh I wish they had treatened me , ....I would put a big sign up in the window If this window gets smashed or the building burnt down we all know who did it , .....Name and shame , ....he even saw me photographing his lorries breaking the law , but I dont think he would dare because it wouldnt be worth it , ...

Did you ever hear about the event involving Oprah Winfrey and beef farmers in Texas? On one of her shows, she had a medical expert on talking about mad cow disease. Oprah said something to the effect of she would never eat beef again. (I don't remember her exact quote.) Well, this really made beef ranchers in Texas incredibly angry and they actually filed a lawsuit against her in the state of Texas, claiming her words would have a detrimental effect on their profits. Oprah won the case; but, it does demonstrate some of the consequences you can face when you start challenging the powers that be.
 

von bek

Well-Known Member
sorry No , ...if every one refused on moral grounds the trade would stop , .....Ok it takes years but one has to lead by example , ....

In other words, a movement is needed. An individual choice is not sufficient on its own.

and you missed the point made in a previous post if you buy from the killer you are supporting the trade , you are actively encouraging anither to comitt ill deeds , ....this is another form of harm .

But, typically you are not buying directly from the "killer". He already got paid long before you showed up to the store. He got paid even if you never showed up at all. Now, if nobody showed up... But, that requires a movement.

Look, if you think you could introduce legislation that would outright ban the consumption of meat, that would be great. But, it also would be a non-starter at this point in history.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
In other words, a movement is needed. An individual choice is not sufficient on its own.

individual actions add up to a movement , ....individual action is the very begining , ....otherwise its a cop out , if you beleive something is correct even if you are the only one on the planet to realise it , ...still you act in accordance with Dharma , ....that is the correct way .

But, typically you are not buying directly from the "killer". He already got paid long before you showed up to the store. He got paid even if you never showed up at all. Now, if nobody showed up... But, that requires a movement.

that is like saying its ok to accept stolen goods as long as you didnt order them to be stolen , ....the victim suffers the same loss what ever the consequence of the theft .''Now, if nobody showed up''.. ''But, that requires a movement.''

no it just means everyone woke up , .....truth dosent change it is the same truth regardless of one person realising it or ten people realising it , .....

Look, if you think you could introduce legislation that would outright ban the consumption of meat, that would be great. But, it also would be a non-starter at this point in history.

but just ecause everyone else is blind dosent mean that I should turn a blind eye , .....otherwise we use this as justification to behave just as stupidly as the most ignorant man , .....

the true meaning of Dharma is to uphold , ...to uphold moral principles , to act in accordance with the universal law , ...
and our svadharma is our personal duty , .....we should not let any one elses ignorance hold us back from carrying out our own duty , .....
 
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