Spiritually Handicapped?

[Runt]

The general Christian belief is that people who know and sense God and still deny His existence are damned because they did not accept Jesus as their personal savior.

However, what if the situation were slightly different than this? What if, instead of consciously denying the existence of God, an individual were spiritually handicapped and could not sense His presence at all?

A bishop at a church I once went to said that people who are mentally retarded basically go through life as innocents and are admitted freely into Heaven because they do not have the mental capacity to truly grasp the concept of God OR to truly understand sin and repentance.

Is it not possible that there are spiritual handicaps as well as physical ones? That someone might actually have the inability to know or sense God? If people can be blind physically, is it not possible that they could also be blind or deaf spiritually, and be unable to see or hear or otherwise sense God?

If they were driven to atheism because of this, would it still be a sin? Or a handicap?

I guess my questions are twofold. First, do you think it is POSSIBLE to have a spiritual handicap such as this? And second, ASSUMING IT WAS POSSIBLE, would God forgive that person for their inability to accept Him, just as He would forgive a retarded person who was unable to grasp the concept of Jesus’s dying for their sins or a crazy person unable to sense the difference between good and evil?

 

[Stained_Class]

I have no opinion on this one. Sorry

 

[Master Hoomer]

answer...the whole idea that acceptance of jesus is closes minded.....and arrogant

If one looks at kabbalah however (as the bible is a kabbalist text...shock horror)...we see thru the middle pillat indeed...we begin at malkuth (earth...the entire manifest unoverse) and to reach the top "God"(kether, the Yod in the tetragrammaton...asher ehyeh , I am that I am)....we must indeed passs through tiffereth (and yesod)...which is the Vau in ther tetragrammaton...or "son"... to reach the "father"

So essentially the christian idea that "Jesus" is the only way is correct.....

But other faiths may pass through the Vau of the tetra,,,to reach God

Christians do not have sole "ownewrship" of "the christ" or his gateway.......

Spritually handicapped?
No...Jesus died for our sins. No one goes to hell ...we are all saved.....

Spirit is PURE...upon death you maybe cleansed,,,,in the lake of fire...a place of washing for the soul.....not eternal torment

So no...every can reach heaven...or they simply come bac again.......till they are ready to return...from whence they came "heaven/God"

 

[Runt]

I think you are either misunderstanding or talking around the question.

Do you think it is possible that in some way an individual may be unable to sense God. At all? Not that they don't BELIEVE in God (and I'm not talking about whether they NEED to believe in a god, but whether they CAN), but that they, for some reason, are physically unable to.

 

[Master Hoomer]

OOOP my bad...
slaps wrist...

hmmm...I have actually wonderd about this....
How could one meditate if one is "hsndicapped" in such a fashion......

the smple answer is,,,
I dont know.....I will have to think about this!

 

[RavenRose]

I hate to say it this way, but according to the Bible it's only possible to not sense God if you choose to.

Neurology, however, may point to people who have brains wired for religion, and brains that lean towards atheism.

 

[James]

Master Hoomer,
This is not Christian doctrine. I can direct you, if you would like, to official Christian doctrine. Just let me know.
Where do your ideas come from? Is this what you believe? Or is this what you hold to be Christian doctrine?

No, nobody can prove God or His existence to you. No, nobody can prove beyond doubt that the Bible is God-inspired Truth. If one holds that the Bible is Truth and the word of God, then: No, not everyone is saved (the way/gate is narrow). Yes, one must accept Jesus and love Him and follow His commandments to get to the Christian heaven. (What is heaven? No one knows-perhaps the immediate and awesome presence of God.) I ask of you but one thing-that you not tell everyone that they are saved and that the lake of fire is a cleansing of the soul. Christians do not believe that, I assume from your posts that you do, but we hold the lake of fire to be hell. Much, much hotter than even Louisiana in the midst of summer!
Now, Christians are not perfect. Christ himself is, but we are not, though we strive to be. We do, sometimes, fall prey to the Devil's temptations, but we pick ourselves up and dust off and resume the fight against evil, if you will. Christ did die for all of our sins, but we are only saved from them if we repent (turn away and stop sinning, not feel guilty or sorry) and live as Christ did. Who/What is a Christian? One who is Christ-like; one who strives to be just like Christ.
God does not damn us to hell, we damn ourselves. We choose whether we go to heaven or hell. God loves us all and always will; nothing you can do will change that. Whether you choose to accept His love or not answers the question as to where you might end up after death.
If you do not hold that what we as Christians believe is true, then you have nothing to worry about, at least (as we see it) until you die and are faced with judgement. However, if we are right then you are in grave trouble.
I hope that you do not see Christians as arrogant. We should be humble, but not fawning and wishy-washy. We should be bold in telling you what we believe, not because we want to bother you with our sermons, but because we love you and do not want to see you perish. If you see someone who calls themselves a Christian doing something that you do not like, either you are offended at something you shoudn't be or that person is not acting as an the child of God the he/she is.
You do not have to believe what we believe, but know that we have not been duped by a 2,000 year old practical joke, or that we are naive, or that we believe everything we are told when we are young. We love God, we love ourselves and others, and try our best to walk as Christ did.

'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me.' -Jesus Christ

God's peace,
James

answer...the whole idea that acceptance of jesus is closes minded.....and arrogant

So essentially the christian idea that "Jesus" is the only way is correct.....

But other faiths may pass through the Vau of the tetra,,,to reach God

Christians do not have sole "ownewrship" of "the christ" or his gateway.......

Spritually handicapped?
No...Jesus died for our sins. No one goes to hell ...we are all saved.....

Spirit is PURE...upon death you maybe cleansed,,,,in the lake of fire...a place of washing for the soul.....not eternal torment

So no...every can reach heaven...or they simply come bac again.......till they are ready to return...from whence they came "heaven/God"

 

[ErikaLee]

No, I do not believe a person can be unable to sense the presence of God. Simply because there is talk of him everywhere. So a person that has heard of this "God" and might be wondering "What's up with that?" would more than likely ask about it and try to find out more.

If he were living in a vacuum, and never heard of God, then YES, I believe it would be possible for a Human being of 'normal' capacity to never feel (or sense) the presence of God.

 

[Runt]

Hearing about something and experiencing something are different.

I have HEARD of Hawaii, I know people who have been to Hawaii, but I have never experienced Hawaii.

It is not a matter of believing or not believing. It is a matter of being UNABLE to sense God, despite whether or not an individual believes or doesn't believe.

 

[Master Hoomer]

Master Hoomer,
This is not Christian doctrine. I can direct you, if you would like, to official Christian doctrine. Just let me know.
Where do your ideas come from? Is this what you believe? Or is this what you hold to be Christian doctrine?

No this is not "OFFICIAL" christian doctrine...it is esoteric christian doctrine..yes this IS what I beleive..what I have been taught and what I have learnt......

No, nobody can prove God or His existence to you. No, nobody can prove beyond doubt that the Bible is God-inspired Truth. If one holds that the Bible is Truth and the word of God, then: No, not everyone is saved (the way/gate is narrow). Yes, one must accept Jesus and love Him and follow His commandments to get to the Christian heaven.

It is precisely statements such as this while I will have nopthing to do with exoteric faiths.....As a qabbalist to me it is clear the idea IN the Bible (which IS a qabbalist text!)that one must go through the Son to reach the father is about the Middle pillar...but as I realise I maybe talking gobblidigook for non qabbalists I shall shut up....

God is beyond proof.....as a Panentheist (one who believes that God IS everything and is also outside of/or more than everything)I know the Bible IS the divine word of God...but so is the screenplay to the Starwars trilogy.....how is this so??? I like to think of FOOD.....a big mac is food...but so champagne and caviarre....both are still food...


(What is heaven? No one knows-perhaps the immediate and awesome presence of God.) I ask of you but one thing-that you not tell everyone that they are saved and that the lake of fire is a cleansing of the soul.

Why ? I believe Jesus came..he went to "hell" he saved us all...he DIED FOR OUR SINS.....we are all saved...because Jesus came....Why did the Logos become flesh? God is an all forgivng God.....the lake of fire is purgatory..it is a place of laundry for the soul.....there is NO eternal torment and damnation....we are merely doomed to samsara and return back to re birth...the "UnderWorld"...is something else entirely..it is the roots of the tree....from darkness comes light...each night we enter the dark to become cleansed by it....darkness is not evil....

Christians do not believe that, I assume from your posts that you do, but we hold the lake of fire to be hell. Much, much hotter than even Louisiana in the midst of summer!

again I was reffering to "puragatory"...hell is something else entirely...."christian hell" is a temporary inner construct created through the force of belief that only those that believe goto...before rebirth

Now, Christians are not perfect. Christ himself is, but we are not, though we strive to be. We do, sometimes, fall prey to the Devil's temptations, but we pick ourselves up and dust off and resume the fight against evil, if you will. Christ did die for all of our sins, but we are only saved from them if we repent (turn away and stop sinning, not feel guilty or sorry) and live as Christ did. Who/What is a Christian? One who is Christ-like; one who strives to be just like Christ.

In the beggining was the word.....the begging is the end is the beggining...We are ALL christ..we are all the logos...the 5 elemented perfected man....adam kadmon.....Christ is the gateway...Jesus Christified himself....he was not the first and will not be the last....In ancient egypty this was called OSIRISFICATION....Christ is a transcendant being...and existed before christianity..before time..and will exist after it as well....

God does not damn us to hell, we damn ourselves. We choose whether we go to heaven or hell. God loves us all and always will; nothing you can do will change that. Whether you choose to accept His love or not answers the question as to where you might end up after death.
If you do not hold that what we as Christians believe is true, then you have nothing to worry about, at least (as we see it) until you die and are faced with judgement. However, if we are right then you are in grave trouble.

No comment....

I hope that you do not see Christians as arrogant.

Yes sadly I do....arrogant enough to assume that only you have the truth and no other...

We should be humble, but not fawning and wishy-washy. We should be bold in telling you what we believe, not because we want to bother you with our sermons, but because we love you and do not want to see you perish. If you see someone who calls themselves a Christian doing something that you do not like, either you are offended at something you shoudn't be or that person is not acting as an the child of God the he/she is.
You do not have to believe what we believe, but know that we have not been duped by a 2,000 year old practical joke, or that we are naive, or that we believe everything we are told when we are young. We love God, we love ourselves and others, and try our best to walk as Christ did.

'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me.' -Jesus Christ

God's peace,
James

Ok I do not wish to offend ...and sadly I bet I will....my christian views are more "Gnostic" than of the exoteric church....
I beleive we are all God..we are ALL Jesus....
Jesus is the symbol..the gateway.....
the christ/God are symbols...of all that was, all that IS, and all that WILL BE......

I have said too much..I apologise and will bite my lips....

SPiritus Domni Replevit Orbem Terrarum

Let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone...

"When to a man who understands, the Self has become all things, what sorrow, what trouble can there be to him who once beheld that unity?" --Isa Upanishad

 

[Master Hoomer]

Master Hoomer,
This is not Christian doctrine. I can direct you, if you would like, to official Christian doctrine. Just let me know.
Where do your ideas come from? Is this what you believe? Or is this what you hold to be Christian doctrine?

No this is not "OFFICIAL" christian doctrine...it is esoteric christian doctrine..yes this IS what I beleive..what I have been taught and what I have learnt......

No, nobody can prove God or His existence to you. No, nobody can prove beyond doubt that the Bible is God-inspired Truth. If one holds that the Bible is Truth and the word of God, then: No, not everyone is saved (the way/gate is narrow). Yes, one must accept Jesus and love Him and follow His commandments to get to the Christian heaven.

It is precisely statements such as this while I will have nopthing to do with exoteric faiths.....As a qabbalist to me it is clear the idea IN the Bible (which IS a qabbalist text!)that one must go through the Son to reach the father is about the Middle pillar...but as I realise I maybe talking gobblidigook for non qabbalists I shall shut up....

God is beyond proof.....as a Panentheist (one who believes that God IS everything and is also outside of/or more than everything)I know the Bible IS the divine word of God...but so is the screenplay to the Starwars trilogy.....how is this so??? I like to think of FOOD.....a big mac is food...but so champagne and caviarre....both are still food...


(What is heaven? No one knows-perhaps the immediate and awesome presence of God.) I ask of you but one thing-that you not tell everyone that they are saved and that the lake of fire is a cleansing of the soul.

Why ? I believe Jesus came..he went to "hell" he saved us all...he DIED FOR OUR SINS.....we are all saved...because Jesus came....Why did the Logos become flesh? God is an all forgivng God.....the lake of fire is purgatory..it is a place of laundry for the soul.....there is NO eternal torment and damnation....we are merely doomed to samsara and return back to re birth...the "UnderWorld"...is something else entirely..it is the roots of the tree....from darkness comes light...each night we enter the dark to become cleansed by it....darkness is not evil....

Christians do not believe that, I assume from your posts that you do, but we hold the lake of fire to be hell. Much, much hotter than even Louisiana in the midst of summer!

again I was reffering to "puragatory"...hell is something else entirely...."christian hell" is a temporary inner construct created through the force of belief that only those that believe goto...before rebirth

Now, Christians are not perfect. Christ himself is, but we are not, though we strive to be. We do, sometimes, fall prey to the Devil's temptations, but we pick ourselves up and dust off and resume the fight against evil, if you will. Christ did die for all of our sins, but we are only saved from them if we repent (turn away and stop sinning, not feel guilty or sorry) and live as Christ did. Who/What is a Christian? One who is Christ-like; one who strives to be just like Christ.

In the beggining was the word.....the begging is the end is the beggining...We are ALL christ..we are all the logos...the 5 elemented perfected man....adam kadmon.....Christ is the gateway...Jesus Christified himself....he was not the first and will not be the last....In ancient egypty this was called OSIRISFICATION....Christ is a transcendant being...and existed before christianity..before time..and will exist after it as well....

God does not damn us to hell, we damn ourselves. We choose whether we go to heaven or hell. God loves us all and always will; nothing you can do will change that. Whether you choose to accept His love or not answers the question as to where you might end up after death.
If you do not hold that what we as Christians believe is true, then you have nothing to worry about, at least (as we see it) until you die and are faced with judgement. However, if we are right then you are in grave trouble.

No comment....

I hope that you do not see Christians as arrogant.

Yes sadly I do....arrogant enough to assume that only you have the truth and no other...

We should be humble, but not fawning and wishy-washy. We should be bold in telling you what we believe, not because we want to bother you with our sermons, but because we love you and do not want to see you perish. If you see someone who calls themselves a Christian doing something that you do not like, either you are offended at something you shoudn't be or that person is not acting as an the child of God the he/she is.
You do not have to believe what we believe, but know that we have not been duped by a 2,000 year old practical joke, or that we are naive, or that we believe everything we are told when we are young. We love God, we love ourselves and others, and try our best to walk as Christ did.

'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me.' -Jesus Christ

God's peace,
James

Ok I do not wish to offend ...and sadly I bet I will....my christian views are more "Gnostic" than of the exoteric church....
I beleive we are all God..we are ALL Jesus....
Jesus is the symbol..the gateway.....
the christ/God are symbols...of all that was, all that IS, and all that WILL BE......

I have said too much..I apologise and will bite my lips....

SPiritus Domni Replevit Orbem Terrarum

Let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone...

"When to a man who understands, the Self has become all things, what sorrow, what trouble can there be to him who once beheld that unity?" --Isa Upanishad

 

[RavenRose]

One reason I am not a Pantheist is, of course, just science. Everything being God takes away any mystery - unless, of course, you show there's something more to everything.

But this Spacetime we call The Universe (NOT our personal "reality") can be studied and follows laws - however strange. Such as Quantum Mechanics, and Relativity.

 

[Master Hoomer]

Quantum theory dictates that all matter is physically connected....therefore I am the planet Jupiter...at the quantum level...why not extend this to God?.....and see that all are one.......

"as above so below".....
But I'm a panentheist...one who believes all IS God...and that God is more besides......
To my mind science is actually more in unison with pantheism that against it....

But I'm no scientist...and am just baBbbling

 

[Stained_Class]

Definition of Science: man's limited understanding of the universe

Definition of Time: entity created to prevent all the events in History from happening at once

Definition of Space: entity created to prevent all the events in History from happening in one spot

The great science minds once told us that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around the third rock. They now tell us today that HIV causes AIDS and there is no cure for cancer. The history of science has been an evolution of exploded fallacies, not one of achievement or an onward march to a more civilized future.

 

[RavenRose]

Time and Space are interwoven deeply in to Spacetime.

I don't see see Quantum Mechanics as showing we are all interwoven. We're still not even sure what to make of it. Entanglement is interesting though.

All events do not happen at one time in the universe at one spot. This is far from what happens.

 

[Stained_Class]

All events do not happen at one time in the universe at one spot. This is far from what happens.

That wasn't meant to be taken literally. Things don't exist until someone comes along and defines them

Think. That is ...

 

[Runt]

Everything being God takes away any mystery - unless, of course, you show there's something more to everything.

But that is the beauty of it. Everything is God, but we humans are literally unable to see, sense, and comprehend EVERYTHING. Thus, there IS still the mystery aspect to God.

 

[Master Hoomer]

At teh quantum state ..ALL matter is one ..it is connected..it is ONE..thats a fact!


Time and space...hmm..time and space...
How do you know that all events do not happen in one moment and in one spot?....do you really know this?...there is no past..or future...there is only perception....

Science is not perfect neither is religion...BOTH are models..a tool..a means to an end in a subjective existence....

Only when you start believing what you have is the "truth" then you are living a lie.....

Science is full of holes...so is religion...both are useful and can easily work in unison..and have done for millenia.......

 

[Master Hoomer]

But that is the beauty of it. Everything is God, but we humans are literally unable to see, sense, and comprehend EVERYTHING. Thus, there IS still the mystery aspect to God.

. He is the supreme seer and thinker, immanent and trascendent. He placed all things in the path of Eternity. Into deep darkness fall those who follow action. Into deeper darkness fall those who follow knowledge. One is the outcome of knowledge, and another is the outcome of action. Thus have we heard from the ancient sages who explained this truth to us. He who knows both knowledge and action, with action overcomes death and with knowledge reaches immortality. Into deep darkness fall those who follow the immanent. Into deeper darkness fall those who follow the trascendent. One is the outcome of the trascendent, and another is the outcome of the immanent. Thus have we heard from the ancient sages who explained this truth to us. He who knows both the trascendent and the immanent, with the immanent overcomes death and with the trascendent reaches imortality.
I love the upanishads....

 

[Truthseeker5]

Christ ? Believe what you want. However I put a question to each and everyone of you ? If you can come directly to God without having to go through Christ then wouldn't you want to ? If the answer is the yes than please take a look at this site: www.kabbalah.info.

It is an extremely bad sign - as in the case of Christ - that a Rabbi seeks glory for himself. If a Rabbi is true he should put you in a position where you can come in undenialble contact with God and not wishy washy rubbish like: "Oh a cloud rained and a droplet fell on my head and I knew that that was God's way of telling me to back a horse in the 3.20 at Wincanton called Divine Exploration in order to increase my bank balance."