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The Bible verses religion.

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Its not a payback.... its a 'promise' and its something everyone can receive if they really want it.
No Pegg....... A person can't live how they want, and get the 'promise' just because they 'want it'.
....... it's God's promise, if you comply...?
If you comply, you get this as a reward? That could be called a payback?
Do this, follow this, comply with this, you get 'this reward'....?


No. Its not heaven. Its earth.
The planet , yes, but changed remarkably.
No Witness has ever been able to describe the fulfilled promise (or reward) clearly.
I have been told that although all plants, animals and organisms exist, nothing kills anything else, so I do know, for instance, that a woodpecker's metabolism will be totally different. Ah.......... so animals do get to the new Earth?
And a small % of all people who have lived before will be there, but I don't have a clue what they will do for ever and ever....... and ever.

I've never understood what the people who reach the new Earth, or kingdom (?) will actually do...... for ever?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Domenic said:
…Jesus will come to destroy all living things on earth.......................

oldbadger asked.......hhmmmmm...... so Jesus is not the loving healing forgiving entity which the gospels report?
Where did you get the idea that Jesus will be a ruthless unscrupulous killer?

Dominic, I think you missed my question?
But in any case, would you like to describe any heaven or kingdom that might have been promised to the righteous, or whoever?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
No Pegg....... A person can't live how they want, and get the 'promise' just because they 'want it'.
....... it's God's promise, if you comply...?
If you comply, you get this as a reward? That could be called a payback?
Do this, follow this, comply with this, you get 'this reward'....?


If we live in harmony with Gods righteousness we are rewarded. Whats wrong with that?

Righteousness leads to life everlasting. Whats wrong with living righteously?

We are created by God and he sustains our life but he will not sustain those who refuse to live by his righteous standards. Hence, we are all dying because we do not live in harmony with him. His promise is that if we do live in harmony with him, he will preserve us alive. Why do you view this as a negative thing???

The planet , yes, but changed remarkably.
No Witness has ever been able to describe the fulfilled promise (or reward) clearly.
I have been told that although all plants, animals and organisms exist, nothing kills anything else, so I do know, for instance, that a woodpecker's metabolism will be totally different. Ah.......... so animals do get to the new Earth?
And a small % of all people who have lived before will be there, but I don't have a clue what they will do for ever and ever....... and ever.

I've never understood what the people who reach the new Earth, or kingdom (?) will actually do...... for ever?

The physical earth is where mankind will reside forever according to the bible. There is nothing wrong with it. its our home and we will remain here forever.

What will change is how society is governed. The 'new earth' will be one governed by Gods Kingdom. All will be required to live by Gods righteous laws and principles and this will benefit everyone. In such a world, life will be enjoyable and fullfilling because everyone will have a share, everyone will have a place and purpose and noone will be left out.
You want to know what we will be doing for all eternity? First and foremost will be the caring of the earth rather then destroying it. And besides that we will do whatever else God requires that we do. This is his world and we will live it his way. And I trust implicitly that the future in such a world will be one that we will never want to leave....it will be the paradise/nirvana all religions speak about but have no idea of what it is or how it will come.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
If we live in harmony with Gods righteousness we are rewarded. Whats wrong with that?

Nothing. I said that if you comply with certain rules conditions that you get something back. You get a payback.
So you're doing something to get something, like I said. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a fact. You want something, seek something..... that's your Main Objective then..... yes?

Righteousness leads to life everlasting. Whats wrong with living righteously?
Nothing is wrong with living righteously. I do think that JWs live and behave very well. And you're doing that for a payback = live forever.
But living forever might not be the joy that some might think..... who knows?
Anyway...... it looks as if Witnesses want a reward of some kind. Fair enough

We are created by God and he sustains our life but he will not sustain those who refuse to live by his righteous standards. Hence, we are all dying because we do not live in harmony with him. His promise is that if we do live in harmony with him, he will preserve us alive. Why do you view this as a negative thing???
Pegg....... your wish to get something from God for doing something he wants is not negative. But what you're going to get ......... preservation alive...... for ever......... is a prison sentence for eternity imo. That's what I see as negative. I don't think that part of the deal is that good.


The physical earth is where mankind will reside forever according to the bible. There is nothing wrong with it. its our home and we will remain here forever.
OK....... if that is what you want, but you don't seem to know any details. Will animals still be there? If so, please confirm that animals can live on Earth for ever with you. And if they can, what will they eat, because they cannot feed on each other..... the natural cycle will be different.

What will change is how society is governed. The 'new earth' will be one governed by Gods Kingdom. All will be required to live by Gods righteous laws and principles and this will benefit everyone. In such a world, life will be enjoyable and fulfilling because everyone will have a share, everyone will have a place and purpose and no one will be left out.
That's fine, but you won't be able to give birth, live and die as before. I don't know what you will do. You won't need to eat because you can't die anyway. You won't need the air to breath. You won't need anything like before.

You want to know what we will be doing for all eternity? First and foremost will be the caring of the earth rather then destroying it. And besides that we will do whatever else God requires that we do. This is his world and we will live it his way. And I trust implicitly that the future in such a world will be one that we will never want to leave....it will be the paradise/nirvana all religions speak about but have no idea of what it is or how it will come.
Pegg......... Yes! I do want to know what on Earth you are going to do for eternity. This is beginning to look like 'watching paint dry on a wall........... but it never does dry.... ever.'
I like you people........well, all the Witnesses I ever knew. I trust them. I like them. But their (this) deal looks wrong to me. It looks like you're buying into the opposite of Heaven.
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
I can not debate the Bible with you, seeing you have very little knowledge of scriptures. The book of Enoch, the seventh from Adam, and the great grand father of Noah, wrote for those of our time. The teachings of Jesus was for all people, past present, and future. You should sit down with some one who knows the Bible,, and study it before you try to debate it...as is, you just make yourself look like a fool. Please do not take that as an insult, it is not.
How are you able to so effectively pat yourself on the back without wrenching out your shoulder?
 

McBell

Resident Sourpuss
The scriptures indicate that ALL religions created by man are false. There is only one belief that the Bible agrees with, and it is what Jesus taught. He called it the "one true faith". Everything else is false.
Bold empty claims.

Merely picking one thing and declaring it the "one true faith" does not make it so.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As I understand Paradise. The cycle of life goes on there. The Bible even intimates that people will die there.* There won't be an urgent sense of time and there will be plenty to learn and to do so forever for a Jehovah's Witness won't be a curse. The Jehovah's Witnesses say new words of God will come to them after Armageddon to explain what life in Paradise will be but I say with all the faithful and discreet in Heaven who will be receiving those words? I do not doubt the written word that new scrolls will be opened.** I grasp the scrolls mentioned in Rev 20:12 picture the true meaning of The Word will finally be discerned by all. Understanding God's Word incorrectly will be replaced by understanding God's Word as it is meant to be understood. And that is called "new".


* Isaiah 65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

**Revelation 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Nothing. I said that if you comply with certain rules conditions that you get something back. You get a payback.
So you're doing something to get something, like I said. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a fact. You want something, seek something..... that's your Main Objective then..... yes?

Nothing is wrong with living righteously. I do think that JWs live and behave very well. And you're doing that for a payback = live forever.
But living forever might not be the joy that some might think..... who knows?
Anyway...... it looks as if Witnesses want a reward of some kind. Fair enough


well we certainly dont want to die. And everlasting life is the reward as promised by God and all the faithful ones of old times looked forward to the promise as a reward just as we do:

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when grown up,+ refused to be called the son of Phar′aoh’s daughter,+25 choosing to be mistreated with the people of God rather than to have the temporary enjoyment of sin, 26 because he considered the reproach of the Christ to be riches greater than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked intently toward the payment of the reward.

Pegg....... your wish to get something from God for doing something he wants is not negative. But what you're going to get ......... preservation alive...... for ever......... is a prison sentence for eternity imo. That's what I see as negative. I don't think that part of the deal is that good.

The scriptures tell us what life will be like in the future and I'm thinking this sounds like the type of place we look for when we want to take a vacation:

Isaiah 65: 17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;+
And the former things will not be called to mind,*
...
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem and exult in my people;+
No more will there be heard in her the sound of weeping or a cry of distres
s.”

Isaiah 65:21“They will certainly build houses and have occupancy;
and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.”

Isaiah 25: 8 He will swallow up* death forever,+
And the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.+
The reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth,
For Jehovah himself has spoken it.

Isaiah 35 :1 The wilderness and the parched land will exult,+
And the desert plain will be joyful and blossom as the saffron.
6 At that time the lame will leap like the deer,+
And the tongue of the speechless will shout for joy.+
For waters will burst forth in the wilderness,
And streams in the desert plain.
7 The heat-parched ground will become a reedy pool,
And the thirsty ground springs of water.

Micah 4:3 He will render judgment among many peoples+
And set matters straight* respecting mighty nations far away.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.+
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore

4 They will sit,* each one under his vine and under his fig tree,+
And no one will make them afraid,+
For the mouth of Jehovah of armies has spoken.

Ezekiel 34;25 “‘“And I will make a covenant of peace with them,+ and I will rid the land of vicious wild beasts,+
so that they may dwell securely in the wilderness and sleep in the forests.

OK....... if that is what you want, but you don't seem to know any details. Will animals still be there? If so, please confirm that animals can live on Earth for ever with you. And if they can, what will they eat, because they cannot feed on each other..... the natural cycle will be different.

What makes you think that the way anaimals behave today is natural? Certainly the way humans are behaving today is Not natural....things changed when Adam and Eve rebelled....actually EVERYTHING changed when they left God. Satan became the ruler of our world and what we see in the world is a reflection of his character. But Jehovah has told us how things will change under his rulership....listen:

Hosea 2:18 In that day I will make a covenant for them with the wild animals of the field,+
And with the birds of the heavens and the creeping things of the ground;+
I will rid the land of the bow and the sword and war,+
And I will make them lie down* in security.


Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb,+
And with the young goat the leopard will lie down,
And the calf and the lion* and the fattened animal will all be together;*+
And a little boy will lead them.
7 The cow and the bear will feed together,
And their young will lie down together.
The lion will eat straw like the bull.+
8 The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra,
And a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake.
9 They will not cause any harm+
Or any ruin in all my holy mountain,+
Because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah
As the waters cover the sea.


That's fine, but you won't be able to give birth, live and die as before. I don't know what you will do. You won't need to eat because you can't die anyway. You won't need the air to breath. You won't need anything like before.

We will still be human... eating, drinking, having children (until the earth is full) just as God has spoken. And people can still die in that new world. Jehovah says that anyone who practices sin in that new world will die...but it will not be a slow gradual dying as it is now. God will personally remove those who wish to carry out wickedness....he will simply not permit them to live there.


Pegg......... Yes! I do want to know what on Earth you are going to do for eternity. This is beginning to look like 'watching paint dry on a wall........... but it never does dry.... ever.'
I like you people........well, all the Witnesses I ever knew. I trust them. I like them. But their (this) deal looks wrong to me. It looks like you're buying into the opposite of Heaven.


Isaiah 65:21 They will build houses and live in them,+And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.+
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,+And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil* for nothing,*+Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring* made up of those blessed by Jehovah,+And their descendants with them.+
24 Even before they call out, I will answer; While they are yet speaking, I will hear.


Have you got a garden? Does your garden ever not need tending? The whole earth is our garden and we will be working to keep it cultivated and well managed... and along the way i imagine we will build and create sustainable and environmentaly friendly things which will add further enjoyment to our world.

Genesis 11:6 After that Jehovah said: “Look! They are one people and there is one language forthem all,+
and this is what they start to do.
Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them.

The world will truly be your oyster.... it will be a time when all things will be possible and we will live to our full potential.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Nope ;)

Some of Josephus was interpolated and redacted. Not all. Some of the parts on Jesus are said to hold historicity.
It may, but its not the Jesus we know from the bible........just imagine all the things he supposedly done, like walking on water, raising the death and the rest, even when he died on the cross there was suppose to be an earthquake, and the graves opened, any many from the graves walked into the city preaching. Come on, if these things truly happened, they would have been writers about, not just by Josephus, but all the other historical writers of that time.
 

Deidre

Well-Known Member
Suppose you lived in a remote place, where you had no access to a Bible, and were deaf and blind, and had no way of hearing or reading any Scripture at all? Would you know God any less, than a seasoned Bible 'scholar?' Or a priest? Or a rabbi? Or an imam?

You don't need any book or any one to tell you who God is.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Suppose you lived in a remote place, where you had no access to a Bible, and were deaf and blind, and had no way of hearing or reading any Scripture at all? Would you know God any less, than a seasoned Bible 'scholar?' Or a priest? Or a rabbi? Or an imam?

You don't need any book or any one to tell you who God is.
That's for sure, I have discovered in my own heart what god means to me, and its all mine, no one else's, that to me is total freedom.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It may, but its not the Jesus we know from the bible........just imagine all the things he supposedly done, like walking on water, raising the death and the rest, even when he died on the cross there was suppose to be an earthquake, and the graves opened, any many from the graves walked into the city preaching. Come on, if these things truly happened, they would have been writers about, not just by Josephus, but all the other historical writers of that time.

You might misunderstand what actually took place that formed the movement.

People wrote rhetorically and used mythology to build divinity in mortal men. They did it with the Emperor who was divine and the son of god before Jesus was even born.

He was not famous before he died, his death brought on his martyrdom in Hellenistic communities far removed from his life.

No credible historian follows the mythology, they follow the man who generated the mythology. Josephus is also not credible per say, we have only his biased view of the past. We don't take his words literally, but study to find out what has historicity in them.

Jesus did generate the mythology. Think about this, he took on the corrupt establishment by himself, if he rallied the whole Passover crowd , he could have overthrown Caiaphas and Pilate. But he failed, BUT his perceived selfless actions of a single man true of heart hit chords with some Hellenist, that is why he was martyred for his actions.

Remember while not really famous in Galilee, his actions in front of half a million people at Passover, made him the star of the show. Its my opinion that is what made an unknown Galilean trouble maker famous. The temple was corrupt and the Hellenist in control like Caiaphas were railroading the Aramaic Jews for massive amounts of money for Pilate. They were hated by all for this. Jesus may have tried to stop the money flow to Rome, he tried to make a change where others were cowards.

Teaching and preaching apocalyptic Aramaic Judaism in small villages will not make you famous.

Perceived selfless actions in the temple with half a million witnesses, can make you famous In a single day.


Either way because of his martyrdom, mythology was generated and it was taken home by those at Passover that lives all through the Empire. Each year they would return and share the good news, and the mythology grew and spread rapidly because of Passover and the huge gigantic crowds that came to celebrate.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
You might misunderstand what actually took place that formed the movement.

People wrote rhetorically and used mythology to build divinity in mortal men. They did it with the Emperor who was divine and the son of god before Jesus was even born.

He was not famous before he died, his death brought on his martyrdom in Hellenistic communities far removed from his life.

No credible historian follows the mythology, they follow the man who generated the mythology. Josephus is also not credible per say, we have only his biased view of the past. We don't take his words literally, but study to find out what has historicity in them.

Jesus did generate the mythology. Think about this, he took on the corrupt establishment by himself, if he rallied the whole Passover crowd , he could have overthrown Caiaphas and Pilate. But he failed, BUT his perceived selfless actions of a single man true of heart hit chords with some Hellenist, that is why he was martyred for his actions.

Remember while not really famous in Galilee, his actions in front of half a million people at Passover, made him the star of the show. Its my opinion that is what made an unknown Galilean trouble maker famous. The temple was corrupt and the Hellenist in control like Caiaphas were railroading the Aramaic Jews for massive amounts of money for Pilate. They were hated by all for this. Jesus may have tried to stop the money flow to Rome, he tried to make a change where others were cowards.

Teaching and preaching apocalyptic Aramaic Judaism in small villages will not make you famous.

Perceived selfless actions in the temple with half a million witnesses, can make you famous In a single day.


Either way because of his martyrdom, mythology was generated and it was taken home by those at Passover that lives all through the Empire. Each year they would return and share the good news, and the mythology grew and spread rapidly because of Passover and the huge gigantic crowds that came to celebrate.
That's right its all mythology, its all metaphorical, Jesus never happened, and that is why he was never written about by the historians of that time, that is why they shoved a little here and a little there just to make it sound like it was history. No matter what you say, that is what happened, and I think you should except that.

I see the story of Jesus as it was suppose to be, a beautiful metaphor, Jesus could be the Buddha, Krishna, no matter who, its all the same story.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
That's right its all mythology, its all metaphorical, Jesus never happened,

My education showed me that is not the case.

Here is more to ponder. Not one enemy of the movement claimed he did not exist. The witnesses lived in the time and place the mythology started, and not a single person denied it.

If your going to create a mythical figure, you do not create him in living memory, and then place him on stage on the biggest rock concert of the century, and say he headlined it. In a time when living people could say hey! I was there and he did not die then.

They didn't destroy any material like this either. Paul was hated by many and guess what we have hundreds of years of people trashing Paul despite a large portion of the NT being attributed to him. Naysayers were everywhere for Paul. Not a single one for Jesus, because no one doubted his existence. It was common knowledge for the people who lived when he did.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
My education showed me that is not the case.

Here is more to ponder. Not one enemy of the movement claimed he did not exist. The witnesses lived in the time and place the mythology started, and not a single person denied it.

If your going to create a mythical figure, you do not create him in living memory, and then place him on stage on the biggest rock concert of the century, and say he headlined it. In a time when living people could say hey! I was there and he did not die then.

They didn't destroy any material like this either. Paul was hated by many and guess what we have hundreds of years of people trashing Paul despite a large portion of the NT being attributed to him. Naysayers were everywhere for Paul. Not a single one for Jesus, because no one doubted his existence. It was common knowledge for the people who lived when he did.
The thing is, back then people believed in just about anything, in fact they were known as the rabble by the Romans, these people were uneducated and were very easily fooled.
 

truthofscripture

Active Member
That's right its all mythology, its all metaphorical, Jesus never happened, and that is why he was never written about by the historians of that time, that is why they shoved a little here and a little there just to make it sound like it was history. No matter what you say, that is what happened, and I think you should except that.

I see the story of Jesus as it was suppose to be, a beautiful metaphor, Jesus could be the Buddha, Krishna, no matter who, its all the same story.
That would mean that the archaelogical evidence, and the written evidence from half a dozen historians of the era, would all be a coordinated massive coverup. Not very likely. Jesus was born, killed, resurrected. It is as the scriptures describe.
 
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