Interpretation that does not match

[savagewind]

Because it is more Likely he had no clue, and then factually stated he went somewhere else.

It is likely but you do not know.

either way it contradicts matthew because it states he went somewhere else

I said it might mean he went somewhere else also.

The allegation that Matthew and Luke’s accounts are contradictory is actually based on an assumption: the skeptic assumes that Matthew and Luke each included all of the whereabouts of Jesus’ family during His early life. The fact is, however, such a conjecture cannot logically be upheld unless both of the inspired writers claimed to write exhaustive, chronological accounts of everything Jesus did. Neither writer made such a declaration

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=6&article=4132

 

[outhouse]

Apologetics Press - When Did Jesus Go to Egypt?

Sorry biased source with no credibility what so ever

The Gospel of Luke makes no mention of this event at all, relating instead that the Holy Family went to the Temple in Jerusalem, and then directly home to Nazareth.[3]

This however is credible.

 

[savagewind]

Sorry biased source with no credibility what so ever





This however is credible.

It convinces you of what?

 

[outhouse]

It convinces you of what?

the Holy Family went to the Temple in Jerusalem, and then directly home to Nazareth

Not to Egypt.


You can reconcile it however you want, but what's worse is both Matthew and Lukes accounts are historically worthless.

Your arguing fiction at this point

 

[outhouse]

This below is not up for debate. Nor has it been for quite a long time.

The contradictions can represent multiple authors plagiarizing and compiling different traditions being far removed from the actual man and events they are building divinity and mythology around using rhetoric as their primary prose.

Which accurately describes the gospels.

 

[savagewind]

the Holy Family went to the Temple in Jerusalem, and then directly home to Nazareth

Not to Egypt.


You can reconcile it however you want, but what's worse is both Matthew and Lukes accounts are historically worthless.

Your arguing fiction at this point

Well that is what I meant. To you none of it is credible but that is what you called it. Confused?

 

[outhouse]

. Confused?

Different communities believed different things.

The oral tradition they drew from was somewhat similar.


Think about how far removed these two communities that produced Luke and Matthew were from any actual event.

They had to plagiarize Mark and copy his story as a foundation because they were so ignorant of Jesus life.

They then layered their own mythology on top of mark they found important.


And what is really sad, is Mark was just as ignorant as his book was a compilation as well


I wish I could teach you ancient rhetoric as Aristotle taught just to open your eyes as to how these pieces were written and how little the actual truth mattered to these people.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
A_E, In my experience, All contradictions are man contrived to satisfy one's own lusts. The messages given by GOD can not be improved upon.

The "traditions and decrees made by man" are NOT from the Creator GOD. Right?

It seems like your experience is a product of a bias - your experiences have been dictated to you and now your are trying to dictate it to other people.

As a Christian, I elect to have the Scriptures teach me rather than me teaching the Scriptures. I don't tell the Scriptures what they are, I let them be what they are and learn from them. It works much better than waving your finger at the text, insisting that it is the word of God and refusing to understand what it actually says.

Hi A_E, As a Christian it "seems" that your calling the "scriptures which I believe and which were inspired by the Creator GOD---'bias' is a reflection of your own bias.
I have posted that which the Creator GOD inspired holy believing prophets to write. I confess to believing and posting those "messages from the Creator GOD". Those are my debate answers. The Scriptures are NOT tolerant of any ideas/proposals/suggested changes which are contradictory to the Messages given by GOD. Mankind is NOT above GOD; nor can man alter that which GOD Said is truth and for a right relationship to GOD and his fellow Beings..

As a scholar, I know that every word of Scripture is written by human beings. Not only written but transcribed, fragmented, collected, preserved, copied, translated and interpreted by human beings.

"As a scholar"=learner, I am still learning. I, also, know that the Creator GOD, who sets up and tears down kingdoms and "principalities", oversees that which HE gave as the instructions for that right relationship. GOD gave NO contradictory principles. However, as 2Tim.4:3-4 states, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

It is those "contradictory fables" which is being aired systematically today.

Now I would agree with you that every contradiction is the result of human lust -- if I thought that the Bible presents no wisdom at all -- if the teachings of God could be expressed flatly with absolutely no color and no artistic quality. I think that God is more complex than the stupid limitations that people want to put on Scripture so they can justify their own ignorance.

Yes, The Biblical principles are wisdom and a proper understanding of those principles leads to wisdom when they are obeyed. It is mankind's machinations which contrive the supposedly "contradictions" in a effort to circumvent the messages of GOD.
Limitations are imposed to let humanity know there is a limit to the Tolerance of evil and that Justice/Truth will be forthcoming. Not stupid---what is stupid or ignorant is to try to nullify the truths of GOD.

Furthermore - if the Bible was devoid of wisdom and unable to teach people in anything other than lifeless sayings that have no depth at all - people wouldn't be able to relate to such an unusual thing.

That's why evangelicalism is dead today. It's irrelevant to people in general and useless to its followers.

The "wisdom" is when one has assimilated the knowledge that is present/given in the Scriptures and applied it in obedience because it is in the Scriptures that "Life" is given/obtained. It is still a choice between "life" and "death".

As the 2Tim.4:3-4 states, Evangelism is refused by the majority who travel the Broad way, but it certainly isn't "useless" to those who follow and seek eternal "life".

 

[savagewind]

According to all of Christianity Jesus commanded the making of disciples of people of the nations. For the sake of identity for anyone not knowing this I believe the words recorded "Having gone therefore disciple the nations" at Matthew is TRUE and RIGHT but have been twisted to mean a job all Christians are commanded to do. (But they don't - was he not talking to us all?)

To make a disciple is to bestow on the person righteousness to walk the WAY which is Jesus Christ. Anyone who accepts the invitation to walk with those walking with Jesus may, according to Jesus command "make disicples".

A great many who have been accepted into the Christian congregation have proved themselves to be dogs, they being enemies of life, love, and truth.

Jesus gave another command which is "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

A place at Jesus feet to worship God is a holy thing. Isn't it?

So the making of disicples, the job, is to bestow holiness on dogs because it is a good Christian's job to get everyone there.

I might believe you saying that by accepting the invitation a person becomes clean but history has provided many facts proving that is not true. Believing a person can be made clean by walking with cleanliness is believing a lie.

Discipling nations is about being gathered to the body of Christ and Christianity is inviting dogs to it. Against the command of Jesus Christ "do not bestow what is holy on dogs".

So your interpretation of Matthew 28:20 "make disicples" is contrary to Jesus words at Matthew 7:6.

When you make a disciple he becomes family to Jesus Christ which is, many times, bestowing holiness on dogs.

 

[sincerly]

According to all of Christianity Jesus commanded the making of disciples of people of the nations. For the sake of identity for anyone not knowing this I believe the words recorded "Having gone therefore disciple the nations" at Matthew is TRUE and RIGHT but have been twisted to mean a job all Christians are commanded to do. (But they don't - was he not talking to us all?)

SW, Is Matt.28:19-20 your text? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Luke 28:46-48, clarifies that "Go Ye". The disciples and those who were disciples in each generation "are witnesses" to the truth of those events.--to the end of the world.

To make a disciple is to bestow on the person righteousness to walk the WAY which is Jesus Christ. Anyone who accepts the invitation to walk with those walking with Jesus may, according to Jesus command "make disicples".

A great many who have been accepted into the Christian congregation have proved themselves to be dogs, they being enemies of life, love, and truth.

Jesus gave another command which is "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7:6)

SW, would you accept the "dogs" to be "wolves"(in sheep's clothing)?
(7:1), "Judge not that ye be not judged"--One's initial job of cleansing is of one's self. Then one can impart the messages(Scriptures) of GOD which lead to the cleansing of others.
Metaphorically, "dogs" are "men of impure minds"/"an impudent man". Those have no use for the Truths of the Scriptures.

A place at Jesus feet to worship God is a holy thing. Isn't it?

So the making of disicples, the job, is to bestow holiness on dogs because it is a good Christian's job to get everyone there.

I might believe you saying that by accepting the invitation a person becomes clean but history has provided many facts proving that is not true. Believing a person can be made clean by walking with cleanliness is believing a lie.

Discipling nations is about being gathered to the body of Christ and Christianity is inviting dogs to it. Against the command of Jesus Christ "do not bestow what is holy on dogs".

So your interpretation of Matthew 28:20 "make disicples" is contrary to Jesus words at Matthew 7:6.

When you make a disciple he becomes family to Jesus Christ which is, many times, bestowing holiness on dogs.

SW, One "witnesses" the fruit of those who have been "discipled" and "such are added to the body "as should be saved".
There is no conflict. One's will to choose is never removed. The "other thief" heard and witnessed the events/actions and his choice was of "unbelief" of Jesus the "savior of the world".

 

[savagewind]

SW, Is Matt.28:19-20 your text? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Luke 28:46-48, clarifies that "Go Ye". The disciples and those who were disciples in each generation "are witnesses" to the truth of those events.--to the end of the world.



SW, would you accept the "dogs" to be "wolves"(in sheep's clothing)?
(7:1), "Judge not that ye be not judged"--One's initial job of cleansing is of one's self. Then one can impart the messages(Scriptures) of GOD which lead to the cleansing of others.
Metaphorically, "dogs" are "men of impure minds"/"an impudent man". Those have no use for the Truths of the Scriptures.

I was sure he said "Having gone" meaning HE went not that they should "go".

Where have you "gone" to witness or plan "to go" to witness? And how do you know? Do you hear from Christ where you should go? I don't.

I'll tell you how the Jehovah's Witnesses know where to go "to make disciples". as they go making disciples they follow neighborhood maps and check off streets. Whenever they "go" out preaching and teaching they record what they do. Books, magazines and return visits are recorded and passed in to headquarters. Men at the headquarters examine the evidence to decide where to go to make more diciples for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Someone translated "go" at Matthew 28:19 as "having gone". Doesn't having gone sound like he went as at the time of his appearing to them to say it he WAS gone.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly View Post
SW, Is Matt.28:19-20 your text? "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy
Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

Luke 28:46-48, clarifies that "Go Ye". The disciples and those who were disciples in each generation "are witnesses" to the truth of those events.--to the end of the world.

I was sure he said "Having gone" meaning HE went not that they should "go".

SW, Let's look at the "having gone" in the context of the Scriptures/events recorded. Jesus sent the Disciples on two occasions(by twos and the seventy) into all of Judea. They were not to go to the Gentiles, but only to the "lost sheep of Israel". Correct?
Their message and actions were "to heal" and tell that the "Kingdom of heaven was at hand". Right?
In that sense, they "having gone". The Scriptures are plain in that Jesus continued to do HIS teaching and healing of the people as well.
In John 14, just hours before HIS Crucifixion, Jesus was satisfied that the "eleven" were ready for the task ahead of them.
After the resurrection, in the upper room, Jesus was ready to send them on the mission HE had prepared them for---the world field.

Now is the English translation of "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations".

As Heb.4:1-2 acclaims, "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."
Rev.14:6-7, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Where have you "gone" to witness or plan "to go" to witness? And how do you know? Do you hear from Christ where you should go? I don't.

I'll tell you how the Jehovah's Witnesses know where to go "to make disciples". as they go making disciples they follow neighborhood maps and check off streets. Whenever they "go" out preaching and teaching they record what they do. Books, magazines and return visits are recorded and passed in to headquarters. Men at the headquarters examine the evidence to decide where to go to make more diciples for the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Someone translated "go" at Matthew 28:19 as "having gone". Doesn't having gone sound like he went as at the time of his appearing to them to say it he WAS gone.

Since GOD knows each heart/mind, HE doesn't need earthly maps. HE is aware that Human Beings are free to change their minds and that Mind may change in either direction before "the end comes"(death or HIS looked for arrival). HIS recorded messages are in the Bible---to be read and acted upon.
The Scriptures declare that GOD knows HIS witnesses/Those who are HIS.

 

[savagewind]

So Jesus said "go MAKE disciples". It is written "out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but -- that they might be manifested that they are not all of us."

It is a fact many children of believers, particularly Jehovah Witness children, leave off believing in Jesus, even believing in God. I know of many who left the JW organization (which teaches it alone is where to worship God acceptably) and are now organized to protest against the religion, not against the teachings of it but are against the practices of it namely shunning and turning a blind eye to it's child abuse occurrances.

They were once "made" disciples but they were "not of" the disicples as it is written in 1 John 2:19 so they weren't really made disciples.

According to the command of Jesus which is as good as a command from God Almighty (I believe it) it is all hit or miss and many who have been "made disciples" really aren't. Are they? But it is the command never the less. Isn't it?

 

[savagewind]

Which of course, in my twisted mind, is related to the god of good luck. Go make disciples says Jesus [and good luck with that].

 

[sincerly]

So Jesus said "go MAKE disciples". It is written "out of us they went forth, but they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but -- that they might be manifested that they are not all of us."

It is a fact many children of believers, particularly Jehovah Witness children, leave off believing in Jesus, even believing in God. I know of many who left the JW organization (which teaches it alone is where to worship God acceptably) and are now organized to protest against the religion, not against the teachings of it but are against the practices of it namely shunning and turning a blind eye to it's child abuse occurrances.

They were once "made" disciples but they were "not of" the disicples as it is written in 1 John 2:19 so they weren't really made disciples.

According to the command of Jesus which is as good as a command from God Almighty (I believe it) it is all hit or miss and many who have been "made disciples" really aren't. Are they? But it is the command never the less. Isn't it?

Which of course, in my twisted mind, is related to the god of good luck. Go make disciples says Jesus [and good luck with that].

SW, When does a person NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE?
Jesus asked in John 6:63-70 of HIS Disciples, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
A person can change from the "broad way" to the "straight and narrow path" and back many times in life. That is what John is saying in 1John 2:19---true conversion had not taken place. The love of the world with all its lusts had the greater appeal.

Jesus wasn't speaking concerning denominations, but the truths of the Everlasting Gospel. One has life in abiding in those truths---NOT what men falsly claim as "doctirnes"/"teachings of the "Church."

One "Goes and tells", but it is the Holy Spirit who seals the one as HIS.(HE knows the heart)---Many warm the pews, but their hearts are not abiding in the love of the truth.

 

[savagewind]

SW, When does a person NOT HAVE THE FREEDOM TO CHOOSE?
Jesus asked in John 6:63-70 of HIS Disciples, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
A person can change from the "broad way" to the "straight and narrow path" and back many times in life. That is what John is saying in 1John 2:19---true conversion had not taken place. The love of the world with all its lusts had the greater appeal.

Jesus wasn't speaking concerning denominations, but the truths of the Everlasting Gospel. One has life in abiding in those truths---NOT what men falsly claim as "doctirnes"/"teachings of the "Church."

One "Goes and tells", but it is the Holy Spirit who seals the one as HIS.(HE knows the heart)---Many warm the pews, but their hearts are not abiding in the love of the truth.

My argumant is that Jesus did not command the making of discples. You agree people don't make disciples but you won't let go of the lie because it is written. The proper way to view what the preaching is for is like John says "make strait the way of The Lord". John 1:23

Isaiah 40:3
A voice of one calling: In the wilderness prepare the way for יְהוָ֑ה; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

"Make disciples" is about making the people right. The gospel and sharing it is about making right the WAY. The Way is not people. The Way is GOD.

 

[sincerly]

My argumant is that Jesus did not command the making of discples. You agree people don't make disciples but you won't let go of the lie because it is written. The proper way to view what the preaching is for is like John says "make strait the way of The Lord". John 1:23

Isaiah 40:3
A voice of one calling: In the wilderness prepare the way for יְהוָ֑ה; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

"Make disciples" is about making the people right. The gospel and sharing it is about making right the WAY. The Way is not people. The Way is GOD.

SW, Yes, "It is written". Matthew recorded, (28:18-20), "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

SW, It isn't the WAY which needs to be made right, but the wickedness of mankind.
Jesus said HE was the WAY for overcoming wickedness/sin--HIS Crucifixion.. And yes, HE is "GOD the son".
"Disciples" are the followers of the "Teacher"---which is perpetual--from teacher to pupil. And commanded by Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

SW, Yes, "It is written". Matthew recorded, (28:18-20), "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

SW, It isn't the WAY which needs to be made right, but the wickedness of mankind.
Jesus said HE was the WAY for overcoming wickedness/sin--HIS Crucifixion.. And yes, HE is "GOD the son".
"Disciples" are the followers of the "Teacher"---which is perpetual--from teacher to pupil. And commanded by Jesus.

Absolutely not!

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever John 14:16

By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.John 7:39

When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me. John 15:26

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27


These scipture do not say perpetually from disicple to disicple. It is always to disciple from Spirit.

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.Rev 3:20

You are an advocate for all the false teachers.

 

[savagewind]

Yes he said "to teach" but we do not teach "to make" disciples.

Please stop embarrassing yourself equating teach to make. oh but it's not embarrassing when everyone else does it! Really?
"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed." Rev 16:15

As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

According to the Proverb does one person MAKE another??????? Or sharpen another? The other one is already iron. GOD makes disciples. How????? People listen to the preaching. Preaching doesn't make people into disciples. The Spirit of God makes them. It is why we are not baptised into the name of Brother but of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Not flesh.

Christianty says "make iron iron" NO! He said "make iron sharp".

 

[savagewind]

I see. Two thousand years of custom can't be wrong.

Can it?

Not forsaking the gathering of yourselves together as some have the custom.

What does as some have custom mean? Might it mean trusting in something not true? I am not allowed by the Spirit of The Truth to gather to people who believe lies. Are you?

another question please.

You say two thousand years of believing God wants the making of disciples can't be wrong. It has been Chrisianity's custom for so long it must be right.

OK What about this custom of Israel?

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. Matthew 23:4

How long was it believed by leaders of Israel that way was the right way? I am going to guess more than two thousand years. Am I right?