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Did Jesus say he was God???

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
If Jesus was God, I'm Nanny McPhee..:)
This is a key verse-
"He asked his disciples “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)


You see, Jesus is telling Peter that God revealed to him that he's the Son of God.
Therefore we can conclude that God hasn't yet revealed it to the people who claim Jesus is God, maybe they're having to stand in line to wait their turn..:)

Jesus said...'I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.'

Now, notice the nature of how Jesu says this, He doesn't just say the Father is speaking through Him, no, He is saying the HE is also in the Father, this seems to me as if Jesus is telling us, that the reason we can only approach the Father through Him, Jesu, is because the Spirit form Jesu is the Deity we as humans are approaching.
Easy to get caught up reading the Bible in progressive form ,but remember, G-d is manifesting through Jesus already, by the Spirit, I don't know about you, but it seems to me we are talking about the same Deity here, just different forms.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
When Jesus told Peter that God had revealed to him that he's the Son of God, we can assume that God has also revealed it to many of the rest of us,
So why hasn't he revealed it to those who still insist he WAS God..:)
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
On numerous occasions Jesus differentiates himself from the Father, such as when he said that he did not know when the end of times was going to come and that only the Father knew for sure. To me, the belief in the early church was more likely that Jesus was of the Father but not God, and later when gentiles took over the leadership of the church, the line between Jesus and God probably got crossed.
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
..we are not supposed to worship other gods or people, yet worship of Jesus is totally kosher, why is that?..

Jesus wants MATES, not worshippers..:)

"You're my friends if you follow me. I don't call you servants, but I call you friends" (John 15:15)
jesus-friends.gif
 
Jesus is definitely not God.There is so much proof that points to this.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

God does not fall on His face to pray or ask anyone for anything.He is the Almighty.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The Almighty God does not have a God.

Luke 18:19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

God is eternal.Jesus was created.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."


Colossians 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

There are so many but this is sufficient to prove the point.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Jesus said...'I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me.'

Now, notice the nature of how Jesu says this, He doesn't just say the Father is speaking through Him, no, He is saying the HE is also in the Father, this seems to me as if Jesus is telling us, that the reason we can only approach the Father through Him, Jesu, is because the Spirit form Jesu is the Deity we as humans are approaching.
Easy to get caught up reading the Bible in progressive form ,but remember, G-d is manifesting through Jesus already, by the Spirit, I don't know about you, but it seems to me we are talking about the same Deity here, just different forms.

No....it's just easier to read your scripture without all the meaningless interpretations because the biblical Yeshua did in fact say the words he spoke were not his but they were given to him to speak from his god...

Codex Sinaiticus
John 6:38
"for I have come down from heaven, not that I might do my will, but the will of him that sent me"


That verse is key because it goes back to what I was saying earlier about Revelation 5. The Yeshua that exist in heaven before being sent by his god and the ascended Yeshua (the slain lamb) that is the only one worthy of opening the seal on the scroll....the one that steps forward to take the scroll from his god that was already on the throne....it's telling you that Yeshua is separate and not "God"....


John 7:16
"Jesus then answered them and said: My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me"

John 8:28 (from the KJV)
"......I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."


John 12:49
"For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father who sent me, he himself has given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak"
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Check this-

"He asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt 13:16/17)

See, if he really was God, he'd have corrected him.

It's been a while since I posted here, but I'm on my iPhone so I must be shorter than I like.
Saying Jesus would have corrected him is not entirely correct. For example, Jesus is more
Than just "the son of God", he is also a man, a god (for arguement same), a king, an angel (again for argument sake), messiah, and many more. If the answer was you are the messiah, do you think he would of been corrected?

In love
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
You see, Jesus is telling Peter that God revealed to him that he's the Son of God.
Therefore we can conclude that God hasn't yet revealed it to the people who claim Jesus is God, maybe they're having to stand in line to wait their turn..

You need to be careful how you express yourself. Clearly Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus "mighty God", so to say to those that believe Jesus is God are not being revealed something isn't very conclusive. Clearly Jesus is called God in the scriptures. You may disagree with ones understanding, but to say or think Jesus isn't called God doesn't exhaust all scriptures.

In love
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
When Jesus told Peter that God had revealed to him that he's the Son of God, we can assume that God has also revealed it to many of the rest of us,
So why hasn't he revealed it to those who still insist he WAS God..

Do you believe Jesus was an angel or archangel? Does that mean since Jesus is the son of god as a man, that he cannot be anything else? Jesus emptied himself to become a man, some believe he emptied himself of God and others of being an Angel or something along those lines.
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
On numerous occasions Jesus differentiates himself from the Father, such as when he said that he did not know when the end of times was going to come and that only the Father knew for sure. To me, the belief in the early church was more likely that Jesus was of the Father but not God, and later when gentiles took over the leadership of the church, the line between Jesus and God probably got crossed.

It is our Christian belief that Jesus emptied himself of something that made him a man. What ever he emptied himself of is what makes him human and like us in every way. It is the belief that our judge has judged us and then took off his robe and bore our penalty. In this human state of existence Jesus for sure could suffer mans sufferings and although he was in the exact radiance and glory of God and Gods imprint stamped out in a human body, he had the flaws of man.

In love
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
No....it's just easier to read your scripture without all the meaningless interpretations because the biblical Yeshua did in fact say the words he spoke were not his but they were given to him to speak from his god...

Codex Sinaiticus
John 6:38
"for I have come down from heaven, not that I might do my will, but the will of him that sent me"


That verse is key because it goes back to what I was saying earlier about Revelation 5. The Yeshua that exist in heaven before being sent by his god and the ascended Yeshua (the slain lamb) that is the only one worthy of opening the seal on the scroll....the one that steps forward to take the scroll from his god that was already on the throne....it's telling you that Yeshua is separate and not "God"....


John 7:16
"Jesus then answered them and said: My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me"

John 8:28 (from the KJV)
"......I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."


John 12:49
"For I have not spoken of myself, but the Father who sent me, he himself has given me commandment what I should say and what I should speak"

So, are you saying that people shouldn't worship Jesus? If Jesus isn't God then worshipping Him is polytheism.
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
I would have to dig through my bible to find the part where God gave a name to Jesus.
Where was that written in the 'Word' of God ?
Did God say the Word when he conceived him in Mary's womb ?
Who wrote those words that quoted what God said ?
I'm lost again !
~
Damn...where the hell is my bible, help me out here.
~
'mud
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It is our Christian belief that Jesus emptied himself of something that made him a man. What ever he emptied himself of is what makes him human and like us in every way. It is the belief that our judge has judged us and then took off his robe and bore our penalty. In this human state of existence Jesus for sure could suffer mans sufferings and although he was in the exact radiance and glory of God and Gods imprint stamped out in a human body, he had the flaws of man.

In love

I'm well aware that this is what most, but not all, Christians believe. However, my interest is to try and scrub away the trimmings around Jesus that were undoutedly added after he was martyred, including those that near deified him. As a Jew talking about other Jews (Jesus and the apostles), I can pretty much tell you that it is all but impossible for any of us to picture someone claiming to be God and garnering any significant following.

As for what you write above, what I believe we read in the epistles especially is some imaginative symbolism, which we are pretty well know for, btw. Unfortunately, some unfamiliar with that process tend to take the words literally instead of symbolically. Since the apostles got "unwelcomed" in synagogues and at the Temple after a while, Jesus became the "final sacrifice" as an "unblemished lamb" since they couldn't offer sacrifices at the Temple, and this became even more solidified after the Temple was destroyed in 70 c.e.

If one reads the Psalms, for example, you run across plenty of symbolism, plus one of our "hang-ups" in general was to see certain events as reoccurring cycles with newer events being symbolized and related to previous events. Therefore we see Jesus symbolically being Adam and Moses, for example.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I would have to dig through my bible to find the part where God gave a name to Jesus.
Where was that written in the 'Word' of God ?
Did God say the Word when he conceived him in Mary's womb ?
Who wrote those words that quoted what God said ?
I'm lost again !
~
Damn...where the hell is my bible, help me out here.
~
'mud

Matthew 1[18] Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child of the Holy Spirit;
[19] and her husband Joseph, being a just man and unwilling to put her to shame, resolved to divorce her quietly.
[20] But as he considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear to take Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit;
[21] she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins."
 

JM2C

CHRISTIAN
Oh please...

Codex Sinaiticus
Hebrews 1:8
"But with respect to the Son: Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever"

While Codex Sinaiticus should be the go to source given its age it's not the only one that lays it out like that.....

NIV
"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever"

NSV
"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever"

Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son; today I have become your Father’” ?
Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, He/God says, “Let all God’s angels worship him/Christ

Angels worships God only. The one the angels worship is clearly superior by far to them. This verse clears the false doctrine that Christ was just an angel of God. Angels do not worship another angel. Angels were God’s creation.

You see the word “FIRSTBORN” in verse 6.

This is the only verse in the NT where "FIRSTBORN" is used absolutely of Christ as the ONE and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF God –John 1:14, V18. It signifies that Christ has the same status with God [Heb 1:8 “Your throne, O God”] that a human “firstborn” has with his father.

A human/father begot his “firstborn” through the same process as he was, I.E., through birth, but God begot His “FIRSTBORN” neither through any process nor THROUGH BIRTH OR CREATION at all, but as God. However, or in whatever manner or way did that happened in eternity, no one knows, only God knew, but NOT through the SAME way as human do, that is, by giving birth.

Christ, as the “FIRSTBORN OF God” is exalted and enthroned as sovereign over the entire inhabited or created world, including the angels. Christ, as the “FIRSTBORN OF God” has the preeminence over everything that God created –John 1:3, Heb 1:2.

Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels He/God says,
“He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”

“But about the Son/Christ, He/God says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”

How can you argue from these verses? You will need to change the entire chapter one of Hebrews to prove your theology.

The biblical Yeshua makes it clear that he has a god but is not "God".
But this has been dealt with already in this thread.

The biblical Yeshua says it's God's throne. not his...but that he is privileged enough to sit on the throne (with) his god.

Why would God command angels to worship Christ if He is not God or just a different/heteros a god?

Ex 20:3 “You shall have no other/different/heteros gods
before me.

Ex 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

Just think of this, God is a jealous God, but He commanded His angels to worship Christ. If Christ is just an “a god” then God just contradicted His command in Exodus 20:3.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
So, are you saying that people shouldn't worship Jesus? If Jesus isn't God then worshipping Him is polytheism.

I have no dog in that fight. If people want to worship the biblical Yeshua, rocks, trees, money or any other animate or inanimate object then they should be free to do so....but for scriptural understanding no one should conclude that the biblical Yeshua is "God", said he was "God" or ever taught his followers he was "God". Those scriptures do not implicitly or explicitly reveal that. It's only with interpretation by others they come to that conclusion. This is one of the reasons there's Christians that believe he's "God" and others that don't yet they're all considered Christians....
 

Shuttlecraft

.Navigator
Jesus had quite a temper when his human side came through, for example when he trashed the temple stalls and when he cursed the barren fig tree.
That's why he reminded people-
"Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone" (Luke 18:19)

PS- Does it really matter if some people think he WAS God, and others think he WASN'T?
 

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
hey Metis,
Thanks for the input, I still can't find my bible.
So Ole Matt wrote all of that stuff about Joe's dream.
Interesting stuff. I wonder what's the date of the writing.
If I remember it was about CE66 or so, he was getting pretty old right about then.
Damned good memory he had. You would have thought that Joseph would have written that dream down somewhere !
Maybe not, angels from the sky after dreams about god's new creation aren't very important.
A good story anyway.
~
'mud
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Heb 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son; today I have become your Father’” ?
Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?

Heb 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, He/God says, “Let all God’s angels worship him/Christ.”

Angels worships God only. The one the angels worship is clearly superior by far to them. This verse clears the false doctrine that Christ was just an angel of God. Angels do not worship another angel. Angels were God’s creation.

You see the word “FIRSTBORN” in verse 6.

This is the only verse in the NT where "FIRSTBORN" is used absolutely of Christ as the ONE and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF God –John 1:14, V18. It signifies that Christ has the same status with God [Heb 1:8 “Your throne, O God”] that a human “firstborn” has with his father.

A human/father begot his “firstborn” through the same process as he was, I.E., through birth, but God begot His “FIRSTBORN” neither through any process nor THROUGH BIRTH OR CREATION at all, but as God. However, or in whatever manner or way did that happened in eternity, no one knows, only God knew, but NOT through the SAME way as human do, that is, by giving birth.

Christ, as the “FIRSTBORN OF God” is exalted and enthroned as sovereign over the entire inhabited or created world, including the angels. Christ, as the “FIRSTBORN OF God” has the preeminence over everything that God created –John 1:3, Heb 1:2.

Heb 1:7 In speaking of the angels He/God says,
“He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”

“But about the Son/Christ, He/God says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever”

How can you argue from these verses? You will need to change the entire chapter one of Hebrews to prove your theology.

Why would God command angels to worship Christ if He is not God or just a different/heteros a god?


This is all fine and dandy and no one needs to rewrite your scripture because right at the beginning of Hebrews it tells you. Not only does it tell you there why the angels etc. would show the biblical Yeshua reverence but early on the biblical Yeshua himself informs others why that is the case...

Codex Sinaiticus
Hebrews 1:1-2
God, after having in many parts and many ways spoken in ancient times to the fathers, in the prophets, has in the end of these days spoken to us in his Son... whom he has appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the ages,


Then check out verse 4.
"having become so much superior to angels as the name which he has inherited is more excellent than they."

How does "God" (become greater) than that which he supposedly created. Shouldn't "God" be greater than his creation regardless...

We know for a fact that Yeshua, before being sent by his god, was given (all authority).

Codex Sinaiticus
Matthew 28:17-18
"and when they saw him they worshipped, but some doubted. And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."


But please note that I never called Yeshua an angel. That might be the teachings or interpretations by other people. I maintain that the biblical Yeshua ("existed") in heaven seperate from his god prior to his god sending him and commanding him what he should say..and I maintain that the (ascended) biblical Yeshua exist in heaven with his god (according to your scripture).
 
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