Deity of Jesus Christ

[Freducator]

Is Jesus Christ divine?

This might seem like something all Christians would answer "Yes" to, but certain Unitarian and other non-Nicene Christians, such as myself, would respond otherwise.

So, here goes a poll.

 

[Pegg]

He is not God Almighty.

But he is divine. I view all spirit beings as divine because they exist in Gods form and are supernatural.

Jesus is likewise a supernatural divine being.

 

[defendurfaith]

1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 10:30 KJV
I and my Father are one.

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[te_lanus]

defendurfaith at least 2 of the text jou posted can be used to defend the idea that Jesus isn't God, but is God's son. Also the 1 jon 5 text is fake, the RCC has already confessed to "hoaxing" that textthe only greek text we have was written after 1200AD

 

[Freducator]

The Spirit leads me to the truth that God and Jesus were not one, so I regard passages of Scripture that claim otherwise as errant.

 

[savagewind]

1 John 5:7 KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Matthew 3:16-17 KJV
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: [17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

John 10:30 KJV
I and my Father are one.

Matthew 28:19-20 KJV
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 John 5:7,8
three there are who are bearing tesstimnomy in Heaven The Father The Word and The Holy Spirit and these the three are one the spirit and the water and the blood also these three in the one are

"one" ἕν in Greek (hen)
NASB Translation
agreement (1), alike* (1), alone (3), common (1), detail (1), first (9), individual (2), individually* (1), lone (1), man (1), nothing* (1), one (282), one another (1), one man (2), one thing (5), one* (2), person (1), single (1), smallest (1), someone (2), thirty-nine* (1), unity (1).

The Father and the Son can't not be first. They can't deny themselves. The Father can't deny God's relationship to the son and the son won't deny his relationship to The Father. That way they are one.


HERE: 1 John 5:8 Greek Text Analysis


John 10:30 "are one"

"are" ἐσμεν Greek (esmen)

NASB Translation
accompanied* (1), accompany* (2), am (138), amount (1), amounts (1), appear* (1), asserted* (1), become* (5), been (45), been* (1), being (26), belong (3), belonged* (1), belonging (1), belonging* (1), belongs (4), bring* (1), came (1), come (5), consist (1), crave* (1), depends* (1), do (1), done* (1), exist (3), existed (4), existed* (1), falls (1), found (1), had (8), happen (4), have (2), have come (1), lived (1), mean (1), mean* (2), means (7), meant (2), originate (1), owns (1), remain (3), remained (1), rest (1), sided (1), stayed (2), themselves (1), there (6), turn (1).

1 Timothy 3:16 KJV
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

WHO received him?

 

[savagewind]

The question is Jesus divine and the poll is Jesus God are not the same. Jesus is "no part of the world". He is of Heaven, thus divine. God, God's son, and the angels are all of Heaven. They are all divine while they exist in Heaven.

 

[savagewind]

I can't vote because neither statement is true. Jesus is not The Father. He is the son. But he is all that God is for us, so in a way he IS God.

 

[te_lanus]

This is something thats interesting if one look at the roman world, and their world view. If you compare Jesus' birth to what was accepted around the same time as his birthM

For me, Jesus is a demi-god (like hercules)since he has a god for a dad and a human mom

 

[Brickjectivity]

Is Jesus Christ divine?

This might seem like something all Christians would answer "Yes" to, but certain Unitarian and other non-Nicene Christians, such as myself, would respond otherwise.

So, here goes a poll.

Just wondering if you happen to have a list of such scripture verses? I am lazily interested in seeing it if you do. I think it would be interesting to see what list you, as a Quaker, would produce.

 

[te_lanus]

Just wondering if you happen to have a list of such scripture verses? I am lazily interested in seeing it if you do. I think it would be interesting to see what list you, as a Quaker, would produce.

As Tertullian says, nowhere does the Scripture say, “I am my only beloved Son; today I have begotten myself.” The Scripture says, “Thou art my beloved Son; today I have begotten you.”

 

[savagewind]

Is God more to us than Jesus Christ? How?

Is there an aspect of God Almighty for us that doesn't include The Son? Please prove it.

 

[defendurfaith]

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

John 1:1 KJV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 KJV
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 10:33 KJV
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

John 8:58 KJV
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 John 3:16 KJV
Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Acts 20:28 KJV
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Acts 7:59 KJV
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God , and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

John 4:25-26 KJV
[25] The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. [26] Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

 

[Katzpur]

Is Jesus Christ divine?

This might seem like something all Christians would answer "Yes" to, but certain Unitarian and other non-Nicene Christians, such as myself, would respond otherwise.

So, here goes a poll.

I voted that Jesus Christ is divine, but I do not believe in "the Trinity." I believe He is "God" because He shares that title with His Father. If a divine Father begat a Son, I believe that Son would have to be divine, too. But they would be separate and distinct beings who are not physically "one God," but who are "one God" in will, purpose, mind and heart.

In other words, once you realize that "God" can be used as either a singular proper noun or as a collective proper noun, then Jesus Christ can be "God" but not part of "the Trinity" (as most people who believe in "the Trinity" understand the word).

 

[Katzpur]

I can't vote because neither statement is true. Jesus is not The Father. He is the son. But he is all that God is for us, so in a way he IS God.

Okay, you just basically described the Mormon position.

 

[Brickjectivity]

As Tertullian says, nowhere does the Scripture say, “I am my only beloved Son; today I have begotten myself.” The Scripture says, “Thou art my beloved Son; today I have begotten you.”

As with Zeno's paradox, this conversation requires an additional dimension: History. Your mention of Tertullian is a possible doorway to that. Unfortunately I am only just beginning to learn the history of the study (or discovery) of Trinitarian concepts. A heated argument about the Trinity is really about history, so it is almost impossible to have a discussion unless everyone in the conversation knows about the Stoics, Epicureans, Pythagoreans, all the church Fathers, the contents of the Bible, some conception about how its parent languages work and so on. That is, unless you are going to exclude history in which case there can be no common ground.

Where the Trinitarians are coming from: Centuries after Jesus, after the separation of Christians from Jews, the church 'Fathers' saw the Jews as worshipping mostly One God but as recognizing also some lesser gods. The church fathers saw themselves as worshipping only one, just one God; and they saw their religion as superior. They turned to philosophy as an aid to discussing the nature of the one God, discovering the depths of God and considered the prophets to be philosophers, too. To them they were refining monotheism. The conservative non-Christian philosophers became upset, concerned that the Christians would replace or usurp Philosophy and so began to argue against the Christians by means of philosophy. The pagans also were opposed to the Christian apologists. Ten centuries later the Trinitarian concepts were mostly filled out, the pagans were gone, and pure philosophy remained but as a subset of Christianity. This came along with a prescribed way to worship God in a better way it was thought than before, that is a better way than the Jews had. To the Fathers it had to be better than the Jews way or what was the point in being a Christian? Ergo, the classical Trinitarian position says if there were no Trinity then what would be the point in being a Christian? May as well backslide into being a Jew!

Today there have been numerous small groups rediscovering their relationship to God while ignoring, literally not learning at all about, the philosophers and church 'Fathers'., completely redoing everything. Everything has been set back to zero. Some of these are non-trinitarian and some are trinitarian. (This is my own background. I'm a zero-day Christian originally.) The Trinity is no longer a given for some while for others it is, and on top of it all its being done without deference to the original languages. A modern 'Zero-day' (Zero-day is a word I'm making up) non-trinitarian does not believe that Jews were not pure monotheists but that they were purely monotheists. The innovation in Christianity is of a different nature for non-Trinitarians and other zero-day believers. The conversation between the two groups (one of which is admittedly much much larger and older) often is a surface conversation about wordings in scriptures, when really that is merely a symptom of less obvious differences, one being about whether Jews were purely monotheistic and what the innovation in Christianity is.

 

[te_lanus]

...

For me Personally, I see Jesus as a Demigod and Co-Savior.

 

[Brickjectivity]

For me Personally, I see Jesus as a Demigod and Co-Savior.

Is that your background, a developed belief or just a position you have chosen?

 

[te_lanus]

Is that your background, a developed belief or just a position you have chosen?

It's a position that I came to, thus a developed belief. A lot of Study took me down a path that one won't find just "following" whatever you are taught in church. That's why I state my faith as Canaanite. As the canaanite culture came to a end, it morphed into a proto-judaistic faith, which incorporated a lot of canaanite religion. later conquest by Nineveh and Babylon distilled proto-judaism into what it is today.

For me I follow the Gods/esses of the Canaanites. El and Asherah as my main Gods, and the other which constitute the Elohim. Jesus is El and Mary's son (thus a demigod). Jesus, as I see it, Was married to Mary Magdalene (and these two are co-saviours). After Jesus' death, it was Mary Magdalene's duty as co-saviour to go spread the news of Jesus' resurrection, which is preserved for us in three of the four gospels.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It's a position that I came to, thus a developed belief. A lot of Study took me down a path that one won't find just "following" whatever you are taught in church. That's why I state my faith as Canaanite. As the canaanite culture came to a end, it morphed into a proto-judaistic faith, which incorporated a lot of canaanite religion. later conquest by Nineveh and Babylon distilled proto-judaism into what it is today.

For me I follow the Gods/esses of the Canaanites. El and Asherah as my main Gods, and the other which constitute the Elohim. Jesus is El and Mary's son (thus a demigod). Jesus, as I see it, Was married to Mary Magdalene (and these two are co-saviours). After Jesus' death, it was Mary Magdalene's duty as co-saviour to go spread the news of Jesus' resurrection, which is preserved for us in three of the four gospels.

I'm pulling you off topic, but how do you get information about Canaanite thought? Do you interpolate what they must have believed? Do you think they literally believed in goddesses or do you think they were more abstract about them? What about existential questions?