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What are the Central Positive Messages you Learned from the Quran?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,

I've had this same conversation (perhaps even earlier on this thread)! I'll restate some background:

I spent many weeks reading the entire Quran (okay an English translation). I took many notes as I read. I do not claim to be any sort of Islamic scholar, I read the book as I would read any book, taking the words at face value.

I have had many experiences (on this website), of citing specific verses of the Quran, only to be told that I'm reading the verses wrong. Typically the reasons boil down to some combination of:

1 - I don't have the correct historic context
2 - I didn't properly group together the correct verses to get the true meaning
3 - I need to look at some other verses in some other part of the book

The bottom line is that we can argue endlessly over specific verses. Now I'm a peaceful person. I have no interest in violence towards anyone. With that said, it seems to me that groups like Al Quaeda, and ISIS, and the Taliban, and Boko Haram are making perfectly reasonable interpretations of the Quran. They can find support for being misogynistic, and they are misogynistic. They can find support for being anti-semetic and they are anti-semetic. And on and on. They can find support for wanting to spread Sharia through violence, and they are doing so.

So honestly, i don't care too much about how you find the book to be peaceful. I'm happy for you of course, but it seems clear that in the world many people find the book's messages to be anything but peaceful.

So back to this thread... In my reading of the Quran, I did find a few positive messages. But, the peaceful messages were few and far between, and mostly the messages I read were not peaceful or tolerant. So there is no need for you to point me to the verse that reads "there is no compunction in religion" - I agree, it says that.

But no one has answered how I'm supposed to ignore the 500+ times that the Quran tells Muslims to mistrust and despise non-believers. Somehow each of those 500 times has some "context". I call "nonsense" on that response. Really? Non-believers are criticized over 500 times and I'm not supposed to see that as a theme of the book?

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

Critisising nonbelievers over 500 times. Thats about 8% of the Quran. Are you serious? Maybe it will help if you give me the verses, or at least some of the baddest one's.

Alright, Im gonna take this. Fistly, let me tell you again that Muslims consider non believers to be others, I mean those who dont call themselves Muslims. Christians also do the same.

This is a cut and paste from another thread.

Brother, you may not get the answer that you expect.
Do you know how Christianity was born? Christians never called themselves Christians. It was others who called them Christians.
Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. – Acts 11:25-26

The word Christian repeats in Acts – 26:28 and 1 Peter 4:16. As you can see clearly, the word Christian is used by a third party to refer to followers of Christ. The more appropriate and original word is “Nazarene” derived from the city Nazareth. Jesus is called the Nazarene in the bible as follows.

The even more appropriate name would be Muslim.
Nasara in Hebrew means "One who remains". One who stays or has submitted. Do you understand brother. נשארה Nasara. This is the Arabic word as well that refers to Christians in the Quran. Nasara in Arabic also is currently believed to mean Christian but how about the original meaning. It means one who follows, which is also akin to one who has submitted. Do you see? You have to have submitted yourself to follow someone or to remain with someone. Its the same as Islam or Muslim. The greek word for remain is emeinen and in various ways Jesus calls his disciples and followers those who remained. One word for this is Muslim. It is unfortunate that the NT has been written or converted into Greek though Jesus spoke Aramaic. If it stayed in the original text the word Nasara, Mushlam etc will be used heavily rather than a Greek using the word Nasara as if it is a proper name. Do you understand what I am saying.

Another. This is directly to a Muslim but you can take what you may.

The belief that Islam, Christianity and Judaism etc are different religions etc is a questionable theology. It is cited that Abraham called people Muslims.

“And strive in the cause of God its truly deserved striving. He is the One who has chosen you, and He has made no hardship for you in the system, the creed of your father Abraham; He is the One who named you ‘those who have submitted’ (Muslimeen) from before and in this. So let the messenger be witness over you and you be witness over the people. So hold the contact prayer and contribute towards purification and hold tight to God, He is your patron. What an excellent Patron, and what an excellent Supporter.” - Qur’an
22:78

See the following verses.

2:111 And they said: “None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or "Nasara";” this is what they wish! Say: “Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.”

2:112 No; whoever submits (Aslamu) himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve. (One who Aslamu is a Muslim. It does not mean Muslim that you think it is brother. It is very General)

2:113 And the Jews say: “The "Nasara" have no basis,” and the "Nasara" say: “The Jews have no basis,” while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Thus it is evident that Christians (Nasara) and Jews also can submit (One who submits is a Muslim) to God will be saved and God will judge between them. It is not for us to judge. Which indicates that one who submits or Aslamu is a Muslim and even one who calls himself Nasara also can be a Muslim.

2:135 And they said: “Be Jewish or Nasara so that you may be guided!” Say: “No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of the polytheists.”

2:136 Say: “We believe in God and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.”

We are required to tell those call themselves Jewish or Nazarenes that Millat Ibrahim or the creed or religion of Abraham will save us all. See, there was only one prophet called Muhammed born in Arabia but Muslims are divided into various sects. Shia, Sunni, Wahabbi etc. But what ever the division you call yourselves of, you are a segment of Islam. Same way if we believe that Islam or submission was the only system authorised by God, whatever name we call ourselves is just a concocted name, the origin is Islam. Thus, Christianity is a segment of Islam.

But Christians and Jews etc are clearly differentiated from the Mumeens.

3:67 Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Nasara, but he was a monotheist
who submitted; he was not of the polytheists.
3:68 The most legitimate people to Abraham are those who followed him; and this prophet, and those who believed (Amanu); and God is the supporter of the believers.

As you can see, if Abraham himself was a Muslim and he called his followers Muslim as said in the Quran, Amanu or believers are differentiated from them and called one of the legitimate people. There is a clear difference between a Muslim and an Amanu or one who has submitted and a believer. This is where the real difference between Christian, Jews and Mumeens is. Muslim is more generic.

Thus, when the Quran says that Islam is the only religion or system, you actually dont have to be one who in current context calls himself a Muslim.

3:85 And whoever follows other than submission (Islam) as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers.

See if Ahlil Kithab are clearly a different entity from Muslims, how can they be told that it will not be accepted from him while in so many other places the Quran says that people of the book can attain salvation.

So in the current world people do misunderstand misquote the Quran.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

You said:
Critisising nonbelievers over 500 times. Thats about 8% of the Quran. Are you serious?

If I accept your math (why not), that means that that message is probably one of the top 5 messages in the book. From a math perspective, if the book had only 12 messages then each would get 8% - but obviously there are many more than 8 messages, so for one message to get 8% of the book is actually a very large percentage. Does that make sense?

At the end you said:
So in the current world people do misunderstand misquote the Quran.

And again I'll ask you: How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that Boko Haram's is the incorrect one?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I believe you will wonder about some specific verses.

I will post some verses in chronological order that addresses Jews.

2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

Above is obviously one flag.

2:111 And they said: “None shall enter the Paradise except those who are Jewish or Nazarenes;” this is what they wish! Say: “Bring forth your proof if you are truthful.”

Above verse is a challenge for those who claim that only I or my group can go to heaven. Then continues.

2:112 No; whoever submits himself to God, while doing good, he will
have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over
them, nor will they grieve.
2:113 And the Jews say: “The Nazarenes have no basis,” and the Nazarenes say: “The Jews have no basis,” while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute. No; whoever submits himself to God, while doing good, he will have his recompense with his Lord. There will be no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

2:113 And the Jews say: “The Nazarenes have no basis,” and the Nazarenes say: “The Jews have no basis,” while they are both reciting the Book! Similarly, those who do not know have said the same thing. God will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection in what they dispute.

Do you get it? It directly says not call each other hell-bound. It is for God to judge and basis of judgement is submission to God and doing good. So it is not the so called Muslims, Christians or Jews right to judge the other.

I dont know if there is a point to keep going like this. Dont always think that everytime the Quran says "disbeliever" it is referring to you because you dont consider yourself a Muslim. Why cannot this refer to the reader, even he is a Muslim?

Sometimes the Quran says that out of the Jews, there are some who take the words out of context. Of course that happens enough and more. But later the Quran says that many people take the Quran out of context. People have a habit of taking all books out of context. So God tells them not to. Is that a problem?

And criticism does not mean you are damned. Brother, you criticise me, my belief and my scripture and I dont mean that offensively. Critics criticise movies and dramas etc. As long as you are truthful and unbiased it is alright. The Quran criticises those who know the truth about something and hides it, also those who take their children as divine (Not worship like God), those take money as divine, their own ego as divine. But it also says not to judge others, not to backbite or slander falsely. Why do you judge the Quran always to be judging others.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,

You said:

If I accept your math (why not), that means that that message is probably one of the top 5 messages in the book. From a math perspective, if the book had only 12 messages then each would get 8% - but obviously there are many more than 8 messages, so for one message to get 8% of the book is actually a very large percentage. Does that make sense?

At the end you said:

And again I'll ask you: How do you know that your interpretation is the correct one and that Boko Haram's is the incorrect one?

Dont jump the gun brother. I didnt say that it was so small that you can ignore it. 8% is a very large portion. You are over-striding a bit here.

Brother. Why do you ask me if my interpretation correct or who ever this Boko Haram is correct. Why dont you make the judgement. Analyse judge it. You have a logical thinking mind right? Ask me your questions and look at their interpretation as well and see what is right.

Im telling you something though, who ever that is, they might make proclamations out of the Quran and completely go against the Quran in the process. Any practice you can show me that they probably are going against the Quran.
 
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icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
You have selected just a few verses - like I said others have done. The Quran instructs Muslims to mistrust non-believers. The Quran says that non-believers are liars and deceivers. This is not a message of peace, it's a message of "us vs. them".

As I said in the other thread. I read it, I think it's violent and intolerant. I do not like the messages in this book. That is my judgment.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
You have selected just a few verses - like I said others have done. The Quran instructs Muslims to mistrust non-believers. The Quran says that non-believers are liars and deceivers. This is not a message of peace, it's a message of "us vs. them".

As I said in the other thread. I read it, I think it's violent and intolerant. I do not like the messages in this book. That is my judgment.

The QUran instructs Muslims to mistrust non-believers? What is the reference? If you dont give me a reference and analyse, this is all just random slander to me. But I feel you are not prepared to do so.

About your judgement you have your right to your opinion, I prefer to analyse and make judgement as the Quran tells me to. You have made a surface judgement and are not prepared to go deeper. You have not so far given me a single reason, just random sayings though I have eternally asked you for.

Peace bro.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I would love to see the 500 places in the Quran where it criticises the so called non believers. To me, this is a lie until shown with references.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

If you dont give me a reference and analyse, this is all just random slander to me.

I would love to see the 500 places in the Quran where it criticises the so called non believers. To me, this is a lie until shown with references.

It's interesting that you decided to call me a slanderer and a liar - just like the Quran says you should! Notice that this is a weak form of debate - you're attacking me, not my arguments.

I'm adding a link to a webpage with a list of over 500 criticisms of non-believers. I did not assemble this list, but I did a "spot check" of the list against my own notes, and the list seems mostly accurate and in keeping with my reading of the book. So you might quibble with a few of the entries, but that does not invalidate the major theme. In other words, even if only 90% of this list is correct, the idea that "criticizing non-believers is a major theme of the Quran" is still valid.

Here is the link to the list: Intolerance in the Quran

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I'm not inclined to go through the entire list but I looked at one:
Don't bother warning the disbelievers. Allah has made it impossible for them to believe so that he can torture them forever after they die. 2:6-7
Not one of the 6 translations I looked at said "forever" and it's hardly intolerance by any usual definition of the word. 2:6 is a statement that people don't believe things just because they are warned. That's elementary psychology. As to 2:7, it's a statement of the consequences not a statement of intolerance.

Khalifa GOD seals their minds and their hearing, and their eyes are veiled. They have incurred severe retribution.
Yusuf Ali God hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).
Pickthal Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.
Shakir Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them.
Sher Ali Allah has set a seal on their hearts and their ears, and over their eyes is a covering; and for them is a grievous chastisement.
"Progressive Muslims"God has sealed upon their hearts and upon their ears, and over their eyes are covers. They will incur a great retribution
.

Another one 2:85 does not say what is quoted there but something quite different. Just one translation this time:

Khalifa Yet, here you are killing each other, and evicting some of you from their homes, banding against them sinfully and maliciously. Even when they surrendered, you demanded ransom from them. Evicting them was prohibited for you in the first place. Do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? What should be the retribution for those among you who do this, except humiliation in this life, and a far worse retribution on the Day of Resurrection? GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
Last one: 2:96 - another mistranslation out of context since it's about the consequences of the golden calf and the 10 commandments:

Khalifa We made a covenant with you, as we raised Mount Sinai above you, saying, "You shall uphold the commandments we have given you, strongly, and listen." They said, "We hear, but we disobey." Their hearts became filled with adoration for the calf, due to their disbelief. Say, "Miserable indeed is what your faith dictates upon you, if you do have any faith."

WebQT - ©2003 Submission.org is to me a useful source to compare different translations of the Quran. Some of the verses are so different in translation that it also proves to me what Muslims contend - that the Quran should be read in the original not in translation.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,





It's interesting that you decided to call me a slanderer and a liar - just like the Quran says you should! Notice that this is a weak form of debate - you're attacking me, not my arguments.

I'm adding a link to a webpage with a list of over 500 criticisms of non-believers. I did not assemble this list, but I did a "spot check" of the list against my own notes, and the list seems mostly accurate and in keeping with my reading of the book. So you might quibble with a few of the entries, but that does not invalidate the major theme. In other words, even if only 90% of this list is correct, the idea that "criticizing non-believers is a major theme of the Quran" is still valid.

Here is the link to the list: Intolerance in the Quran

_____________
defend net neutrality - "without love in the game, insanity's king"

I knew that you would point to some website where you have got this notion from. I doubt even you would have tried to see if this is correct or not and you have not asked for clarity.

Peace.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

The Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. Why can't I just read the words? Why do I need to ask for clarity from another person if I'm reading a perfect book?

So, is the Quran clear or not? Yes or no?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,

The Quran declares itself to be clear and easy to understand. Why can't I just read the words? Why do I need to ask for clarity from another person if I'm reading a perfect book?

So, is the Quran clear or not? Yes or no?

Do you know that Kafir does not mean Infidel? Infidel does not mean a Christian. Christian does not mean a non believer. Non believer could be a Muslim. A Muslim can be a Kafir. A kafir can be your wife.

You can read the Quran brother because it is clear. As long as we read the whole thing. Without picking specific verses. If we dont have the time, we can ask for clarity.

There is nothing wrong with asking for clarity. I could not understand the Quran until i studied it. When I did, I found that it was very clear to comprehend. Though I must admit that many have translated it to suit an existing preconceived belief which is hard to let go. The Quran is claiming that it is easy to understand and that its clear etc to tell you that clarity could be found within it. When people look for external sources for clarity what they are actually doing is look at the Quran for help stabilise their external beliefs rather than vice versa.

Just take a look at this from the website you provided.

"Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray."
Muslims generally interpret "those whom Allah has favored," "those who earn Allah's anger," and "those who go astray" as Muslims, Jews, and Christians, respectively. 1:6-7

What an assumption it is to say that Muslims "Generally" interpret that those who earn Allahs anger are Jews and those who go astray are Christians. It is an absurd and biased interpretation of someone who intends to throw darkness into a text. This person either has not read the full chapter, or the full Quran, and if he has, he is maliciously quoting the Quran with an agenda.

I have seen and heard too many people who say that Quran is tyrannical and totalitarian etc, but when asked to give the reason they will keep backing out until pressed enough to quote some one else's work or a website.

When the Quran says it is clear and easy to understand it is telling you make your references circular, stick to the book because you dont need assistance from other sources. Do you understand? When ever you go to external sources you will corrupt things because of what you have been taught all your life.

Ill give you one example. Women are called your tilth in the Quran. A man who has been brought up in a society where women are subservient to the man will intentionally interpret it to mean that women are a place you plant your seed and make babies. What it actually means is that, tilth is where you are born, your child will be born and where life grows. So the woman is elevated to a divine level of respect. And who says that the Quran is only talking to the man and not to the woman. When it addresses you Oh Mankind it means mankind. Not man. Hope you understand the point.

Peace mate.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

It's false to claim that I can't read the book AND use Google :)

I read the book, it gave me some impressions. I can also use Google to find analysis that others have done.

Let me give you an example. There is a concept called "neotony". It means (roughly), when adults retain some physical characteristics of children. There are several repeated patterns in the Quran when it comes to describing paradise in the afterlife. One is that the book often mentions that in paradise there will be gardens watered by underground rivers. (This seems an appropriate idea of paradise for people who live in the desert.)

Another theme is that in paradise the women will be lovely and "wide-eyed". The characteristic of being wide-eyed is that of a girl or young woman. It's an example of neoteny. This is not something I learned from Google, this is a pattern that I saw as I read the book.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,

It's false to claim that I can't read the book AND use Google :)

I read the book, it gave me some impressions. I can also use Google to find analysis that others have done.

Let me give you an example. There is a concept called "neotony". It means (roughly), when adults retain some physical characteristics of children. There are several repeated patterns in the Quran when it comes to describing paradise in the afterlife. One is that the book often mentions that in paradise there will be gardens watered by underground rivers. (This seems an appropriate idea of paradise for people who live in the desert.)

Another theme is that in paradise the women will be lovely and "wide-eyed". The characteristic of being wide-eyed is that of a girl or young woman. It's an example of neoteny. This is not something I learned from Google, this is a pattern that I saw as I read the book.

Rivers flowing beneath them, not underground rivers. And even if you want to mean underground rivers, come to my country, not a meter of dessert but enough rivers flowing underground. Underground rivers only in desserts??

Neoteny I understand is young characteristics in adults. Call it what you may and imagine a "Paradise" with old and ugly people.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

The point of the last post was to show examples of other themes I picked up while reading the book. The reason I did that was to respond to your claim that I didn't read the whole book.

It's also not correct for you to say that someone who has criticisms of the book has an agenda or preconceived notions.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hi firedragon,

The point of the last post was to show examples of other themes I picked up while reading the book. The reason I did that was to respond to your claim that I didn't read the whole book.

It's also not correct for you to say that someone who has criticisms of the book has an agenda or preconceived notions.

You misunderstood me. I didnt say talk about criticism. I spoke of preconceived notions when interpreting the Quran. That mostly refers to Muslims more than any other.

Also, criticism is not only looking at what seems wrong with the book, rather being neutral and looking at both good and bad. How come you have only seen criticism of unbelievers, neoteny and the persona of a dessert dwellers writings?

Let the scripture speak

Greet people well
And if you are greeted with a greeting, then return an even better greeting or return the same. God is Reckoning over all things - Quran 4:86

Humility
And be humble in how you walk and lower your voice. For the harshest of all voices is the voice of the donkeys. - Quran 31:19
Invite to your path with wisdom and good advice
Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. - Quran 16:125

Kindness to parents
And your Lord decreed that you shall not serve except He, and do good to your parents. When one of them or both of them reach old age, do not say to them a word of disrespect nor shout at them, but say to them a kind saying. And lower for them the wing of humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord, have mercy upon them as they have raised me when I was small. - Quran 17:23-24

Speak well with good words
Have you not seen how God puts forth the example that a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches are in the heaven. It bears its fruit every so often with the permission of its Lord; and God puts forth the examples for the people, perhaps they will remember. - Quran 14:24-25
Do not speak with bad words
And the example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has nowhere to settle. - Quran 14:26

Patience and mercy
And race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the width of the heavens and of the earth; it has been prepared for the righteous. The ones who spend in prosperity and adversity, and who repress anger, and who pardon the people; God loves the good doers. - Quran 3:133-134

Practice goodness against your enemy
Not equal are the good and the bad response. You shall resort to the one which is better. Thus, the one who used to be your enemy, may become your best friend. - Quran 41:34

Do not be arrogant or insolent
And do not turn your cheek arrogantly from people, nor shall you roam the earth insolently. For God does not love the arrogant show off. - Quran 31:18
Humility and wisdom
And the servants of the Almighty who walk on the earth in humility and if the ignorant speak to them, they say: ‘Peace. - Quran 25:63

Don’t insult those of other religions. Do not play God.
And do not insult those who call on other than God, lest they insult God out of ignorance. And We have similarly adorned for every nation their works; then to their Lord is their return and He will inform them of what they had done. - Quran 6:108

Do not mock others
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.” - Quran 49:11

Do not practice suspicion and backbiting
O you who believe, you shall avoid much suspicion, for some suspicion is sinful. And do not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite. Would any of you enjoy eating the flesh of his dead brother? You certainly would hate this. You shall observe God. God is Redeemer, Merciful. - Quran 49:12

No racism
O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honourable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.” - Quran 49:13

Maybe you should explore the concept of anti slavery

No slavery in Islam
Most readers would find it astonishing to hear that slavery still exists in the modern world. Though the practice was abolished officially it is still very much alive. According to a study done by the International Labour Organisation the estimated number of slaves has increased from 12.3 million to 30 million since 2005. Slavery is not declining, in fact it is increasing.

Defining slavery
 Humans used, sold or bought as a commodity or property
 Imprisoned or kept by force with no freedom of movement
 Forced to work via some form of threat
 Forcefully acquired or owned by a master or employer, abused or under threat of abuse.

Slavery has been officially abolished since 1981 and the world at large, including some Muslims believe that Islam does propagate slavery. It is an erroneous view as you will find the Quran telling us that slaves are to be set free as a repenting act for a sin or crime you commit. If a billion Muslims follow the Quranic teachings and seek to set a slave free to redeem themselves, 30 Million slaves might see a hope of freedom. Many do find it silly to discuss slavery but slavery is very much alive, it is in the increase and needs attention. The ILO goes to the length of quoting 90$ as the average cost of a slave.

Freeing a slave is defined as an act of piety in the Quran.

Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who
 believes in God and the Last Day,
 and the angels,
 and the Book,
 and the prophets,
 and who gives money out of love to the relatives,
 and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask,
 and to free the slaves;
 and who upholds prayer,
 and who contributes towards purification;
 and those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge,
 and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair.
These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous. – Quran 2:177

Very directly and clearly the Quran gives a formula to live by, which if someone has an argument against is imprudent.
As you can see, freeing slaves is part of a Muslims creed.

 Quran verse 4:92 says that if you kill someone by mistake (e.g. Motor Accident), you must free a slave and compensate the family. Compensating the family is for their wellbeing, freeing a slave is for your salvation. Imagine every Muslim in the world seeking to free a slave in case of an accidental death.

 Verse 5:89 ordains you to free a slave in case you had broken an oath or a promise. If you owe someone money and you break the promise of return, if and when you repent, it is not enough just to return that money. You must free a slave as an act of repentance.
 9:60 gives you freeing a slave as a duty amongst charity and relieving those in debt.
 The Quran articulates in this manner
“Do you know which the better path is?
o The freeing of slaves.
o Or the feeding on a day of great hardship.
o An orphan of relation.
o Or a poor person in need.”
 Quran 90:12-16

Islam is against slavery, contrary to popular belief and is a solution, not a problem.

Cheers.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi firedragon,

Also, criticism is not only looking at what seems wrong with the book, rather being neutral and looking at both good and bad. How come you have only seen criticism of unbelievers, neoteny and the persona of a dessert dwellers writings?

These are just a few of the concerns I have with the book.

Now the reason I'm focusing on topics that seem problematic to me is because of the claims that Muslims make about this book. If it was just any book then I could take the good with the bad, no problem. But Muslims claim that this is the perfect, final, unalterable word of God. Correct? This is an extraordinary claim. You must understand that for the rest of the world, this is an extraordinary claim. (To be fair, the scriptures of other religions also make extraordinary claims, Muslims are not alone in this regard.)

So when I read this book, it's completely fair for me to give it harsh scrutiny, agreed? There are plenty of books in the world that have positive messages like: be charitable, be kind, have patience and mercy and so on. All good messages to be sure, but none of them are unique to the Quran. So the fact that the Quran says stuff like "be merciful" - while nice - hardly makes it extraordinary.

In short, when you claim perfection, you should expect people to take a long hard look, and not just take your word for it.
 
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ametist

Active Member
Quran is not a 'positive' book to my understanding and i dont understand why it should try to sound so if that is the actual case between believer and god.
On the other hand it is stated many times that god is merciful.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Quran is not a 'positive' book to my understanding and i dont understand why it should try to sound so if that is the actual case between believer and god.
On the other hand it is stated many times that god is merciful.

Based on my reading of the book: Allah made me to be a non-believer. He gave me my skeptical brain, my love of logic and evidence. He gave me an easy book to criticize. The book does claim, over and over and over again, that Allah is merciful. And it also claims that because I'm using my brain I'll be tortured in hell for eternity, and once the pain of having my skin burned off is over, he'll put a new skin on me so that I can go through that torture over and over again. It doesn't matter how good a life I live, if I don't believe in this book, I'm doomed. If I use the brain he gave me, he dooms me...

How again is this the proposition of a merciful god?

I have to say that whenever I read the sentence that Allah is merciful, I have to groan a little - the irony is almost too much to bear.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Based on my reading of the book: Allah made me to be a non-believer. He gave me my skeptical brain, my love of logic and evidence. He gave me an easy book to criticize. The book does claim, over and over and over again, that Allah is merciful. And it also claims that because I'm using my brain I'll be tortured in hell for eternity, and once the pain of having my skin burned off is over, he'll put a new skin on me so that I can go through that torture over and over again. It doesn't matter how good a life I live, if I don't believe in this book, I'm doomed. If I use the brain he gave me, he dooms me...

How again is this the proposition of a merciful god?

I have to say that whenever I read the sentence that Allah is merciful, I have to groan a little - the irony is almost too much to bear.

So your point is that the merciful God should put every one, lock stock and barrel to heaven! No book in the world teaches something like that.

).
 
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