The Trinity

[james2ko]

Not at all--1 thess 4:16--the trumpet announces Jesus ride and he comes with the voice of the archangel----its his voice.

IF you are so sure Michael and Jesus are the same person, prove it to me from scripture. (Btw...1th 4:16 is proof against them being the same person) I'm an open book when it comes to biblical knowledge and unafraid to change doctrinal positions, if it can conclusively be proven from scripture. Captainbryce and I had a very good discussion on this thread. He's a very bright fellow who had a very difficult time proving it from scripture. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you..

 

[james2ko]

So Jesus comes with both a trumpet and the shout of an archangel, therefore Jesus is an archangel. Therefore, he must also be a trumpet! BRILLIANT!

I agree. To describe an archangel as descending "with the voice of an archangel" makes about as much sense as to describe a human male singing "with the voice of a man."

 

[Susanpalli,JW]

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

If Jesus is the archangel because he descends from heaven with the voice of the archangel, then is he God because he comes with the trump of God? So if we are to believe that he is the archangel, shouldn't we believe that he is God also?

I have never come to a satisfactory conclusion of this issue of whether Jesus is the archangel....

Jensen

Well, Jensen, After reading Revelation chapters 12 and 19, one could come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Archangel Michael.

In Revelation 12:7-12, it says that Michael and his angels battle with Satan.
In Revelation 19:11-16, it says that Jesus leads the armies of heaven.

Couldn't it be one and the same person.

I could add more details if you wish.

 

[kjw47]

IF you are so sure Michael and Jesus are the same person, prove it to me from scripture. (Btw...1th 4:16 is proof against them being the same person) I'm an open book when it comes to biblical knowledge and unafraid to change doctrinal positions, if it can conclusively be proven from scripture. Captainbryce and I had a very good discussion on this thread. He's a very bright fellow who had a very difficult time proving it from scripture. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you..

Rev 6---- the ride of the white horse( Michael--the war in heaven) The 2nd ride of the white horse( white horse means war of righteousness)-Har-mageddon) proving the first ride was the war in heaven--he receives his crown( crowned king)--it is Jesus riding his white horse on both occasions. this occurred in 1914--satan came like a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time was short--he filled mens hearts with hatred all over the earth--ww1--millions slaughtered( other riders started)but his main goal---stop the preaching of the good news of Gods kingdom--house to house) all Jw Teachers and men--thrown into prision--refusing to stand on both sides and kill one another to appease men. And so the teachers as well wouldn't be praying to the same God on both sides of a war of hatred. By applying Jesus' truths above what men thought.
After ww1 the work started back up--but the others riders kept going--millions upon millions died from starvation, diseases, Satan tried again in ww2--but he can never stop Gods will.

Michael stood up for the sons of men-Daniel 12:1

 

[kjw47]

IF you are so sure Michael and Jesus are the same person, prove it to me from scripture. (Btw...1th 4:16 is proof against them being the same person) I'm an open book when it comes to biblical knowledge and unafraid to change doctrinal positions, if it can conclusively be proven from scripture. Captainbryce and I had a very good discussion on this thread. He's a very bright fellow who had a very difficult time proving it from scripture. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you..

Consider Phillipians 2:9--- Jesus was exalted to a higher position( from before he came) He was a prince--he couldn't be king then because Jehovah was king, But the only one called Archangel-chief of the angels--2nd in command.
One cannot be exalted to be higher than God--so before he came he was Michael. --also at 2:9--it says God gave Jesus the name above every other name( it did not include God' name obviously)
Every body keeps missing the point that God gave all things to Jesus--God taught all things to Jesus. If Jesus was God he would already be king from ot, but God ( ancient of days)appointed him( Daniel 7:13-15) and he on,ly gets the crown after the war in heaven is done--Gods kingdom established in heaven--satan and his demons cast to the earth-1914.
Mr Russell using bible chronology established this date teaching years before--Peace will be taken from the earth in 1914--the riders began. He erred putting a date on a real prophecy( Harmageddon) it was only the war in heaven. But Gods word teaches--that generation( now 100) will see Harmageddon--we are close.

THat Isis group is demanding the map lines are put back to 1914.( because religious factions were separated--they want it back to what it was.) The year it all changed for the earth.

 

[james2ko]

Rev 6---- the ride of the white horse( Michael--the war in heaven) The 2nd ride of the white horse( white horse means war of righteousness)-Har-mageddon) proving the first ride was the war in heaven--he receives his crown( crowned king)--it is Jesus riding his white horse on both occasions. this occurred in 1914--satan came like a devouring lion, angry, knowing his time was short--he filled mens hearts with hatred all over the earth--ww1--millions slaughtered( other riders started)but his main goal---stop the preaching of the good news of Gods kingdom--house to house) all Jw Teachers and men--thrown into prision--refusing to stand on both sides and kill one another to appease men. And so the teachers as well wouldn't be praying to the same God on both sides of a war of hatred. By applying Jesus' truths above what men thought. After ww1 the work started back up--but the others riders kept going--millions upon millions died from starvation, diseases, Satan tried again in ww2--but he can never stop Gods will. Michael stood up for the sons of men-Daniel 12:1

This is merely one of many interpretations of Rev 6. Here's one---The rider of the white horse in Rev 6:1-2 is a clever counterfeit of the rider from Rev 19:11-15. The rider in Rev 6 symbolically represents false teachers and false Christs. Notice first that the returning Christ of Revelation 19 brandishes a sword out of His mouth, not a bow in his hand, as in Revelation 6. The sword is His Word-- the Bible. The Word of God is called, in symbol, a "two-edged sword' (Heb. 4:12). Christ comes reproving nations with His Word, while the counterfeit horseman of Revelation 6 comes with another source of power to conquer the nations. The rider in Rev 6 represents the opening of the first seal and is a symbolic parallel to Christ's first statement in His Olivet Prophecy:

Mat 24:2-7 Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many."6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Rev 6:1-8"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer. 3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see." 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword. 5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see." 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. "​

Notice in the succeeding verses 6-8, Christ speaks of war, famine, and pestilence. A striking parallel to the next three horsemen in Rev 6:3-8. Sorry KW. But neither your interpretation nor mine proves Michael is Christ. With your questionable interpretation and the JW's obvious misunderstanding of Christ's return (see Pegg and I's discussion on the Return of Christ thread starting here) proves to me JW's do not have a firm grasp on biblical prophecy.

Consider Phillipians 2:9--- Jesus was exalted to a higher position( from before he came) He was a prince--he couldn't be king then because Jehovah was king, But the only one called Archangel-chief of the angels--2nd in command. One cannot be exalted to be higher than God--so before he came he was Michael. --also at 2:9--it says God gave Jesus the name above every other name( it did not include God' name obviously) Every body keeps missing the point that God gave all things to Jesus--God taught all things to Jesus. If Jesus was God he would already be king from ot, but God ( ancient of days)appointed him( Daniel 7:13-15) and he on,ly gets the crown after the war in heaven is done--Gods kingdom established in heaven--satan and his demons cast to the earth-1914. Mr Russell using bible chronology established this date teaching years before--Peace will be taken from the earth in 1914--the riders began. He erred putting a date on a real prophecy( Harmageddon) it was only the war in heaven. But Gods word teaches--that generation( now 100) will see Harmageddon--we are close. THat Isis group is demanding the map lines are put back to 1914.( because religious factions were separated--they want it back to what it was.) The year it all changed for the earth.

This is a doctrinal interpretation/assumption. No hard textual evidence proving Michael is Jesus.

 

[kjw47]

This is merely one of many interpretations of Rev 6. Here's one---The rider of the white horse in Rev 6:1-2 is a clever counterfeit of the rider from Rev 19:11-15. The rider in Rev 6 symbolically represents false teachers and false Christs. Notice first that the returning Christ of Revelation 19 brandishes a sword out of His mouth, not a bow in his hand, as in Revelation 6. The sword is His Word-- the Bible. The Word of God is called, in symbol, a "two-edged sword' (Heb. 4:12). Christ comes reproving nations with His Word, while the counterfeit horseman of Revelation 6 comes with another source of power to conquer the nations. The rider in Rev 6 represents the opening of the first seal and is a symbolic parallel to Christ's first statement in His Olivet Prophecy:

Mat 24:2-7 Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ; and shall deceive many."6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

Rev 6:1-8"And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering and to conquer. 3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see." 4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword. 5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine." 7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see." 8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. "​

Notice in the succeeding verses 6-8, Christ speaks of war, famine, and pestilence. A striking parallel to the next three horsemen in Rev 6:3-8. Sorry KW. But neither your interpretation nor mine proves Michael is Christ. With your questionable interpretation and the JW's obvious misunderstanding of Christ's return (see Pegg and I's discussion on the Return of Christ thread starting here) proves to me JW's do not have a firm grasp on biblical prophecy.



This is a doctrinal interpretation/assumption. No hard textual evidence proving Michael is Jesus.

In revelation==white = righteous--its impossible for white to be fakes or aposters.

 

[james2ko]

In revelation==white = righteous--its impossible for white to be fakes or aposters.

So essentially you are saying it's impossible for satan to pose as an angel of light????

 

[kjw47]

So essentially you are saying it's impossible for satan to pose as an angel of light????

Not in a prophecy from heaven--only through his false teachers and what he offers off the table of demons. ( never would be considered white in a prophecy of Gods.

 

[james2ko]

Not in a prophecy from heaven--only through his false teachers and what he offers off the table of demons. ( never would be considered white in a prophecy of Gods.

Hmm....Based on Jesus' testimony in Mat 24:4 about false teachers, I have to believe that is precisely what one who is deceived by the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 would say..

 

[kjw47]

Hmm....Based on Jesus' testimony in Mat 24:4 about false teachers, I have to believe that is precisely what one who is deceived by the rider of the white horse in Rev 6 would say..

The whole world will see shortly.

 

[james2ko]

The whole world will see shortly.

Yes we will. We will all (at least those who are still alive) "see" the rider of Rev 19 descend from the clouds with His Saints to crush the 200 million man army gathered at the Valley of Megiddo (Armaggeddon) firing every surface-to-air-missile at their disposal misidentifying the Messiah and His saints as alien invaders. They will descend to the Mount of Olives and proceed to setup His world government right here on planet earth. May God speed that day!... Oops. There I go ranting again. Sorry :help:

 

[kjw47]

Yes we will. We will all (at least those who are still alive) "see" the rider of Rev 19 descend from the clouds with His Saints to crush the 200 million man army gathered at the Valley of Megiddo (Armaggeddon) firing every surface-to-air-missile at their disposal misidentifying the Messiah and His saints as alien invaders. They will descend to the Mount of Olives and proceed to setup His world government right here on planet earth. May God speed that day!... Oops. There I go ranting again. Sorry :help:

Its more like what Jesus taught--- as in the days of Noah, the world( 99%) took no note. ( of the passing of the prophecys of Daniel-revelation. And these will be mislead by patriotism to raise up against Jesus and his true followers-then Harmageddon.

 

[james2ko]

Its more like what Jesus taught--- as in the days of Noah, the world( 99%) took no note. ( of the passing of the prophecys of Daniel-revelation. And these will be mislead by patriotism to raise up against Jesus and his true followers-then Harmageddon.

Taking all the passages referring to his unexpected arrival into consideration, I believe the world will not be expecting His return. Just as a homeowner does not expect a thief to break into their home. Which is precisely why they will believe Christ and His saints are alien invaders. I believe satan has been and is currently conditioning the world inspiring a myriad of alien invader films and programs for this very event!

 

[sojourner]

Taking all the passages referring to his unexpected arrival into consideration, I believe the world will not be expecting His return. Just as a homeowner does not expect a thief to break into their home. Which is precisely why they will believe Christ and His saints are alien invaders. I believe satan has been and is currently conditioning the world inspiring a myriad of alien invader films and programs for this very event!

IF that's true, then you, too, will be fooled, just like everyone else.



Unless, of course, you alone have a magic tin-foil hat...

 

[james2ko]

IF that's true, then you, too, will be fooled, just like everyone else.

Not if I'm one of the saints taking the ride down with Him And If I'm not, please explain the logic behind being caught by surprise of an event I am totally expecting?

 

[sojourner]

Not if I'm one of the saints taking the ride down with Him And If I'm not, please explain the logic behind being caught by surprise of an event I am totally expecting?

You said:

I believe the world will not be expecting His return.

You believe. Your belief is that the world (meaning everyone) will not be expecting it, so how can you turn around and say you're "totally expecting" it??? Are you special in relation to everyone else? The bible doesn't say, "Only James will be totally expecting this." The world will not be expecting it.

Plus, what if you're NOT "taking the ride down with him?" What if it happens tomorrow? You'll be fooled right along with the rest of us poor schmucks. The thief will break in and steal, and your bible-y ADT won't protect you. Why? because you're part of humanity, and we all take this pony ride together.

 

[james2ko]

You said:

You believe. Your belief is that the world (meaning everyone) will not be expecting it, so how can you turn around and say you're "totally expecting" it??? Are you special in relation to everyone else? The bible doesn't say, "Only James will be totally expecting this." The world will not be expecting it.

Plus, what if you're NOT "taking the ride down with him?" What if it happens tomorrow? You'll be fooled right along with the rest of us poor schmucks. The thief will break in and steal, and your bible-y ADT won't protect you. Why? because you're part of humanity, and we all take this pony ride together.

If I'm the one expecting this scenario to play out, it would be quite obvious to conclude I am not including myself. True Christians are not part of this "world". Jesus' implication was we are to live in it, but not participate in its corrupt practices.

Joh 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
​

 

[kjw47]

Taking all the passages referring to his unexpected arrival into consideration, I believe the world will not be expecting His return. Just as a homeowner does not expect a thief to break into their home. Which is precisely why they will believe Christ and His saints are alien invaders. I believe satan has been and is currently conditioning the world inspiring a myriad of alien invader films and programs for this very event!

Yes I agree ,the world 99% wont be expecting Jesus-- Will be doing this-- Rev 16--- very sad--- with 3 inspired expressions satan misleads every kingdom on earth( govt, armies, supporters) to raise up against Gods true followers on earth, I say it will be exactly as after 9/11--govt and media fill hearts with patriotism and hatred for Gods true followers and believe something else because of those 3 expressions, God said his reaction=Har-mageddon will be like a poke in the eye--quick reaction. The result--Daniel 2:44--the arrival of Gods kingdom to the earth---forever.

 

[Muffled]

What I see here is a Christian that doesn't appear to believe in the word of God, as I posted verses and only colored parts of those verses and you still do not accept what those verses are actually saying...because of this I see no point in discussing scripture with you being that you do not seem to accept it for what it says. Sorry, but that is how I see it.

Jensen

I believe in the word of God but evidently you do not and are not willing to be shown where you are in error.