The Trinity

[icebuddy]

The Israelites were never expecting the messiah to be God--They expected a mighty king who would fight the romans and defeat them there and then---But placing themselves on pedastels, thinking they were better than the lowly ones( Amharets) they called the ones under the teaching status-- it meant giving table scraps to the dogs--spiritual scraps in this instance) so when a lowly carpenters son showed up and tried to correct their bad teachings and attitudes--they turned their hearts to hatred to their own savior.

They Expected 2 to be coming not 1 twice... However, Either way, Do you put your own belief under the same scrutiny? Did they expect the Messiah to be Micheal one of the arch-angels? Did they expect their Creator and Maker to empty himself and become a man?

 

[kjw47]

They Expected 2 to be coming not 1 twice... However, Either way, Do you put your own belief under the same scrutiny? Did they expect the Messiah to be Micheal one of the arch-angels? Did they expect their Creator and Maker to empty himself and become a man?

It really didn't matter who they were expecting they were expecting him around that time-- and no they were not expecting God, I doubt they knew who would come.
Jesus will return at Har-mageddon on his white horse.

 

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by Jensen
I was giving verses that show that Jesus was correcting them and saying that he is the Son of God.

Why is that Correcting them? If the Term, "Son of God" meant equality to God, wouldn't one like myself see that as affirming that he is God?

That he denied what they were accusing him of, making himself out to be God.

Again, If i where claiming to be a Man and someone said We are stoning you because you think your equal to Man. Then i said I was the Son of Man, would that be denying that I was a Man by saying I was the Son of Man?

Being that you are a son of a man, do you think of yourself as your father?

No, but I know Im 100% of his same nature. Thats why i believe the Trinity.
All 3 Equal in being our one God, yet
Father is not the Son(Jesus)
Son(Jesus) is not the Father

So, Jesus is the son of David, do you think that makes him David?

He has the same nature and bloodline as David. And No, Jesus is not David. What I dont understand is that you seem to know the difference between Oneness and Trinity, yet here you are hung up on the Oneness Pentecostal which believe us Trinitarians are wrong as well.

But when Jesus is called the Son of God, you claim that means he is God.

Equal in Nature to God and therefore God

A father is an individual, the father of his son, just as your father is the father of you. Yet you are not your father. Neither is Jesus his father. God is an individual just as any father. Jesus is a son just as any son.

Yes, thats why Trinitarians believe in 3 Persons(you say individuals) making up our One God.

The creed does, as if you were to read it, it say that Jesus is co-equal and co-eternal....one God but separate persons. Which you have just disagreed with, so how much do you really understand your trinity concept.

i agree 100% with that... Jesus is Equal to God and NOT the Father. The Problem I think you are having is that you assumed unitarism before reading some of the text. Basically one might have defined God as a single unit non-plural being before reading all the text that trinitarians say are showing the plurality of our One God...

Who said anything about a mini-god? I haven't, but still the bible does say that God will put all under his feet and the last to be put under his feet is Jesus.

Yes, Jesus emptied himself and needs the Father to grant everything back to him. Although Jesus Created everything, he made himself nothing and died for us. He is still a man who mediates for us...

Have you heard of the Plural of Excellence? If not look into that.

No, looking...

 

[Desert Snake]

I agree, The term "Lord" has been watered down over the years.
I also Agree that our God has expressed himself in 3 Deities

The problem I see with anti-trinity people, are that they have already defined the term "GOD" (Put God in a limited Box) before they read scripture.

Hmm , yes, like a strawman 'well, you don't believe /such & such/ so how can you believe/such &such'....Then I'm asking 'Really? I don't believe in trinity concept? Why not? Where exactly does it state in the Bible that I'm not supposed to believe in trinity concept?''....

Also, I agree with the adonai term, I think the usage for 'normal' people might be a redaction in translation, far as I can tell.. though, not positive/

 

[icebuddy]

Quote:
In my post, that post, I was not on the topic of creation. Nor do I remember saying anything on creation in that post. Are you trying to change the subject?

I did study with JW's, so maybe its the way i think, but God Created and all of this is part of the Trinity... For example, The NWT adds the word [other] when Jesus is said to have created All Things. He is either a Thing or he is God...

If one has to piece that mystery of God together, It is a very round about way to piecing together God for your beliefs, when....what is so hard to understand then God being Jesus God, which he has said more than once, and God being Jesus' Father, which he also has said, and God saying that Jesus is his Son?

Im not in disagreement that Jesus is the Son of God or that the Father is head over Jesus. However, we must not forget what the Eternal Word gave up in order to become a man and die for us. It seems to me that you keep focusing on a Jesus who emptied himself and relied 100% upon the Father as his God. What we Trinitarians look at is that Jesus was much more than just a man and we piece together passages that already call him God (John 1:1) with passages showing what he did (Phil 2:5-11)
**There are many passages, those are the easy ones

Quote:
Actually, when I see Son of Man I see Son of Man, and when I see Son of God I see Son of God. Sons.....not sons being their father.

Would you agree that Sons are Equally of the same Nature as their Fathers?

The bible says that he is the son of man.
The bible says that he is still a man. I think it is found in Timothy?

Yes, Jesus is still the Man who mediates for us. (1Tim 2:5)
We believe Jesus is Both the Offspring of David (Man) and the source of David (God)

First of all, John did not write the bible. Only a part of it. Also John did not say that Jesus was making himself out to be God, but was telling us in his gospel that the Jews were accusing him of making himself out to be God, and that Jesus denied it. John was telling us what happened, under inspiration, John was not saying here that Jesus is God.

Jesus didnt deny it, he affirmed it... That would be like me saying, How dare you call me a Man, for I am the Son of Man.... Do you see the problem that I see?

What fits nicely together is believing what the bible says so many times, God the Father and Son of God. One Yahweh the other Jesus.

Jesus is also Yahweh with the Father and Holy Spirit. Hebrews 1:10-12

I do not know what you are asking.

We seem to have that problem...

Its okay being that Jesus is the representation of God.

Even if thats all i saw him as (Just Gods Representative), wouldnt it be ok for me to Call Jesus God and Worship him as God. (Like the Angel of the LORD in the OT)

Did you know that the Psalm 102 in the bible Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition only goes to verse 22?

Not sure what you are trying to say, but Hebrews 1:10-12 validate psalms 102:25-27. I do know that the King James manuscripts are most complete and they are not missing and agree with the other translations. It would be helpful if you posted your References...

 

[Jensen]

I agree, The term "Lord" has been watered down over the years.
I also Agree that our God has expressed himself in 3 Deities

The problem I see with anti-trinity people, are that they have already defined the term "GOD" (Put God in a limited Box) before they read scripture.

Hi icebuddy,

I'd have to disagree, as I for one, grew up not going to church, and read the bible before knowing anything about what the trinity was; had heard the word, but that was about all. I read and studied the NT quite a bit before looking into what the trinity was said to be. And I never got the impression that the bible taught a trinity. I strongly saw one God, that is one being, one person, one individual, one God that had a Son, the Savior. I started with the NT as the OT looked so long, but have read it through also several time.

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

Being that all letters originally were upper case, and that there were no commas, period, or capitals, etc, it could read this way also.


13Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (no comma)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( comma after Savior)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (comma after God)

Notice how it could make the meaning different by where the comma is placed.
And so how do you desire to understand it, and which is correct for you.

Who do you believe is going to Appear? I ask because many anti-trinitarians tell me that the Father will never be seen. If you read Revelation 22: 12-21 its clearly Jesus who is appearing.

Anyways, are you against someone calling Jesus "Great God" or "Mighty God"? Again, for anyone to look to the Image of God and see anything but God will always baffle me...

 

[Jensen]

Reference?

Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1)

 

[kjw47]

Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1)

In the real Hebrew---YHWH(Jehovah) said to my lord.---- any place in the ot--GOD-LORD--all capitols--YHWH(Jehovah) belongs. nearly, 6800 spots

 

[Jensen]

Why is that Correcting them? If the Term, "Son of God" meant equality to God, wouldn't one like myself see that as affirming that he is God?

It is a correction in that the Jews said that he makes himself out to be God, and Jesus disagreed when he said that he is the Son of God. If he is God he would not need to make that distinction. Also I've never come across anywhere in the bible that says that Son of God means equal to God, or God. Jesus himself says that the Father is his God. That the Father is the only true God. You may believe what you wish, but I'll take Jesus at his word.

Again, If i where claiming to be a Man and someone said We are stoning you because you think your equal to Man. Then i said I was the Son of Man, would that be denying that I was a Man by saying I was the Son of Man?

Your example doesn't prove anything, as Jesus did not claim to be God. It was the Jews that said he claimed to be God. They misrepresented Jesus' claims to suit their own purposes, which was to accuse him of claiming to be God when he never did.

Your example would only hold water if there are many gods.

No, but I know Im 100% of his same nature. Thats why i believe the Trinity.
All 3 Equal in being our one God, yet
Father is not the Son(Jesus)
Son(Jesus) is not the Father

If Jesus is God himself because he has the same nature, than this could be said about the angels also. Do you believe that they are God? No? You make it out that God is only a "nature" that the three persons belong to. I believe that God is an individual just as much as you are, or I am.

He has the same nature and bloodline as David. And No, Jesus is not David. What I dont understand is that you seem to know the difference between Oneness and Trinity, yet here you are hung up on the Oneness Pentecostal which believe us Trinitarians are wrong as well.

That is correct, Jesus is not David. Neither is he his Father. The Father that he calls the only true God.

I believe that I understand what Oneness is, compared to unitarianism and trinitarianism.........but I'm not "hung up" on Oneness Pentecostals. They are one group that I have not studied.

Equal in Nature to God and therefore God

I may be equal to you, or you equal to me, but that does not make me you, nor does it make you me. God has a nature, but he is not a nature, but an individual.



Quote:
A father is an individual, the father of his son, just as your father is the father of you. Yet you are not your father. Neither is Jesus his father. God is an individual just as any father. Jesus is a son just as any son.

Yes, thats why Trinitarians believe in 3 Persons(you say individuals) making up our One God.

I find it hard to believe that you are not understanding what I said. Your answer that "thats why trinitarians believe in 3 person making up our one God" is not a response at all to what I posted. Still, Jesus disagrees, as he says that the Father is the only true God. "You, Father, are the only one who is truly God" (John 17:3).

i agree 100% with that... Jesus is Equal to God and NOT the Father. The Problem I think you are having is that you assumed unitarism before reading some of the text. Basically one might have defined God as a single unit non-plural being before reading all the text that trinitarians say are showing the plurality of our One God...

Jesus says that no one is equal to God. This would include Jesus.
I think that trinitarians do not come to that belief by reading scripture, but were taught this while still children long before they started to do serious study of the bible. They come into study of the bible with this preconceived idea.
I don't need to assume before reading scripture that God is unitarian as it is obvious that the God of the bible is one, unitarian god, and not three in one. The bible doesn't speak anywhere of God the Son or God the Holy Spirit. That's all added in by preconceived beliefs and misinterpretations.

Yes, Jesus emptied himself and needs the Father to grant everything back to him. Although Jesus Created everything, he made himself nothing and died for us. He is still a man who mediates for us...

Yes, he is still a man....who mediates for us. Who does he mediate to for us? God, his God and Father, our God and Father. He is not equal to God, not before, and not now, and will not be in the future, as it says that God will put all under his feet and this includes Jesus.

Jensen

 

[icebuddy]

Originally Posted by Jensen
I didn't mention the word EL. But the word Adonai which is only ever used of God and never Jesus

Adonai is the Hebrew word that the Jews used for YHWH. Since Jesus wasnt born until after the Hebrew texts where written, we wont see texts saying Jesus is Adonai, what we will see is Greek versions of it Jesus is Kurios. Now if that's not enough, we also see Passages of YHWH or Adonai of the Hebrew scriptures being applied directly to Jesus.

For Example: If Paul where to say that A certain passage of YHWH or Adonai in the OT is also to be applied to Jesus. Romans 10:13 shows the difference in our beliefs (im assuming) For example this is a direct quote of Joel 2:32 and is applied directly to Jesus. (read verse 9-12 for context) More context would be verses 14-15 because who did the disciples preach day and night about will be the answer to who this "Lord" (Adonai) is...

Wouldn't this be enough proof that Jesus is Adonai? What would you like to see since the Name Jesus is in greek and Adonai is Hebrew?

At God right hand, at this time.

Telling me what I believe again?

The Son of God, the messiah, Christ and Savior.

I would never disagree with you on this, but what we will disagree on is who Jesus was before he emptied himself to become a man... Where do you place Jesus before he humbled himself. Just for kicks, lets say God wanted to save us himself. So he took a part of Himself (The Word) and Emptied it and made it into a man born of a woman. Would this man have a God, being able to sit next to Him? Would this God be both our God and Savior. Beginning and End. Offspring and Source of David. Although not perfect, I hope this helps...

Because it isn't taught in the bible, and because it makes God something and someone other than who he is.

I believe the whole bible is pointing Jesus out as everything that the Father is. Let me ask you this: Do you believe that Gods image would be anything but expressing God?

 

[Jensen]

Im not in disagreement that Jesus is the Son of God or that the Father is head over Jesus. However, we must not forget what the Eternal Word gave up in order to become a man and die for us. It seems to me that you keep focusing on a Jesus who emptied himself and relied 100% upon the Father as his God. What we Trinitarians look at is that Jesus was much more than just a man and we piece together passages that already call him God (John 1:1) with passages showing what he did (Phil 2:5-11)
**There are many passages, those are the easy ones

You say that you are in agreement that the Father is head over Jesus? yet you also say that they are equal? It is one or the other. you are not even agreeing with yourself.

And you piece together passages to make it appear that he is called God....how is that not picking and choosing verses that suit you to support your beliefs while criticizing others for do the same? One doesn't need to piece together passages to support their beliefs, why not just take Jesus' word as to who God is..

“My father is greater than all,” John 10:29.

“My Father is greater than I,” John 14:28

Non-trinitarians also believe that Jesus is more than just a man. Have never said otherwise.

Would you agree that Sons are Equally of the same Nature as their Fathers?

The bible and Jesus says that there is only one God. And I don't believe that God is a "nature" the three persons are part of, but that God is a separate individual as much as you and I are. One the Father who Jesus says is the only true God, and the other the Son, and not God.

Yes, Jesus is still the Man who mediates for us. (1Tim 2:5)
We believe Jesus is Both the Offspring of David (Man) and the source of David (God)

Jesus is the offspring of David. Think on this...is God the offspring of David? To say so is to imply that God had a beginning and is not eternal, and we know this is not true as the bible says God is eternal, so Jesus being the offspring of David means he can not be God.

Also I disagree with you on that Jesus is the source of David...whatever you mean by that...but that he is the Lord of David, meaning that Jesus is David savior, although he is a son of David. After all Jesus is the Lord, Messiah, Savior of all man.

Jesus didnt deny it, he affirmed it... That would be like me saying, How dare you call me a Man, for I am the Son of Man.... Do you see the problem that I see?

He did deny it, he definitely did not affirm it. Read the verses again...

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

They said that he made himself out to be God; he said the above, that he is the Son of God. He made a distinction between the two, so obviously God and Son of God do not have the same meaning, or he would not have made the reply that he did.

Even if thats all i saw him as (Just Gods Representative), wouldnt it be ok for me to Call Jesus God and Worship him as God. (Like the Angel of the LORD in the OT)

I haven't said that he is "just" Gods representative. That is your words. I think that he is much more than that. He is the Son of God, Messiah, Savior, Christ,etc etc.


I think that you should worship God the Father, the Father of Jesus, the Father who Jesus called the only true God.

Not sure what you are trying to say, but Hebrews 1:10-12 validate psalms 102:25-27. I do know that the King James manuscripts are most complete and they are not missing and agree with the other translations. It would be helpful if you posted your References...

I thought that you might find it interesting that that translation did not have those verses. The reference is that bible itself. Look it up.

Psalm 102 in the bible Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition

You said...He is either a Thing or he is God....

What is meant by that? Are we all "things" being that we are not God? Why demean Jesus with this statement, we all know he is much more than that.

Jensen

 

[Jensen]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jensen
Being that all letters originally were upper case, and that there were no commas, period, or capitals, etc, it could read this way also.


13Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (no comma)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( comma after Savior)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (comma after God)

Notice how it could make the meaning different by where the comma is placed.
And so how do you desire to understand it, and which is correct for you.

Who do you believe is going to Appear? I ask because many anti-trinitarians tell me that the Father will never be seen. If you read Revelation 22: 12-21 its clearly Jesus who is appearing.

Anyways, are you against someone calling Jesus "Great God" or "Mighty God"? Again, for anyone to look to the Image of God and see anything but God will always baffle me...

I was asking if you can see that the meaning changes when the comma is put in the different places that are shown in the differing translations above. Can you see that depending on where the comma is placed, the meaning of the verse isn't the same? You did not respond to that at all. So what is one to believe? since the meaning is changed with the differing translations. Do you just pick what suits you most? Or do you look into it more? Like reading in context? What is your choice?

That was what I was asking.

 

[Jensen]

Did you read this link? It explains the different uses of these words.

Adonai and Adoni (Psalm 110:1)


This is in answer to your post 2771 Icebuddy.

 

[Muffled]

Erred trinity translations caused the confusion you posted

Jesus clearly teaches--John 17:1-6--The one who sent him( Father) is the only true God--verse 6 = YHWH(Jehovah)
Paul teaches the same--only the Father is God-1 Corinthians 8:6

Jesus teaches he has a God like we do-his Father-John 20:17, rev 3:12

I don't believe you can prove that and certainly the early New World Translation was an abomination. The new version seems to be an improvement but I haven't read much of the new one.

I believe those arguments don't change the trinity a bit.

 

[Muffled]

I agree, The term "Lord" has been watered down over the years.
I also Agree that our God has expressed himself in 3 Deities

The problem I see with anti-trinity people, are that they have already defined the term "GOD" (Put God in a limited Box) before they read scripture.

I believe this is in error since there is only one deity and the Trinity is an expression of HIm.

 

[kjw47]

I don't believe you can prove that and certainly the early New World Translation was an abomination. The new version seems to be an improvement but I haven't read much of the new one.

I believe those arguments don't change the trinity a bit.

Bible writers tell truth---men in white collars lie through their teeth for the tithe. ear ticklers.

 

[Jensen]

Adonai is the Hebrew word that the Jews used for YHWH. Since Jesus wasnt born until after the Hebrew texts where written, we wont see texts saying Jesus is Adonai, what we will see is Greek versions of it Jesus is Kurios. Now if that's not enough, we also see Passages of YHWH or Adonai of the Hebrew scriptures being applied directly to Jesus.

Adonai is a name referred to God.

Adoni is a hebrew word meaning a lord who is not God, such as
men, lord master. Also, of human in superior positions.

Does being called Kurios mean that Jesus is God? No. As Kurios means...
master, lord, prince chief roman emperor, God, messiah.
It can be used for more then just God and so doesn't mean that Jesus is God.

For more on this see link
Hebrew Name for God - Adonai

For Example: If Paul where to say that A certain passage of YHWH or Adonai in the OT is also to be applied to Jesus. Romans 10:13 shows the difference in our beliefs (im assuming) For example this is a direct quote of Joel 2:32 and is applied directly to Jesus. (read verse 9-12 for context) More context would be verses 14-15 because who did the disciples preach day and night about will be the answer to who this "Lord" (Adonai) is...

Wouldn't this be enough proof that Jesus is Adonai? What would you like to see since the Name Jesus is in greek and Adonai is Hebrew?

No, it does not being that representing someone does not make you that someone. Also, the name Jesus is not Greek it is Hispanic, Jesus in Greek is Iēsous.

I would never disagree with you on this, but what we will disagree on is who Jesus was before he emptied himself to become a man... Where do you place Jesus before he humbled himself. Just for kicks, lets say God wanted to save us himself. So he took a part of Himself (The Word) and Emptied it and made it into a man born of a woman. Would this man have a God, being able to sit next to Him? Would this God be both our God and Savior. Beginning and End. Offspring and Source of David. Although not perfect, I hope this helps...

I have already answered.... where do you place Jesus. And the bible says that our savior had to be like us (humans) in every way to save us from our sins. And so why discuss what God did not do? That is come himself to save man. And the bible says that Jesus the man sits at God's right hand and so why consider something other then that. God doesn't sit at Jesus' right hand, but Jesus at God's right hand.

I believe the whole bible is pointing Jesus out as everything that the Father is. Let me ask you this: Do you believe that Gods image would be anything but expressing God?

The bible does point to the coming messiah, I agree with this, and that he represents the Father, but that does not make him the Father; but an image of God in that he represents the Father. remember that man was made in the image of God also. And that does not make us God.

God bless....

 

[Jensen]

I don't believe you can prove that and certainly the early New World Translation was an abomination. The new version seems to be an improvement but I haven't read much of the new one.

I believe those arguments don't change the trinity a bit.

You mean that you don't take Jesus' word for who God is?
And just how does this don't change the trinity a bit?

 

[icebuddy]

Being that all letters originally were upper case, and that there were no commas, period, or capitals, etc, it could read this way also.


13Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ (no comma)


Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ ( comma after Savior)

Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (comma after God)

Notice how it could make the meaning different by where the comma is placed.
And so how do you desire to understand it, and which is correct for you.

i havent signed on in a few days and I think Im at this post...

If Jesus was God, with the Father, what Exact words would you like to see to show this? It seems to me that every possible way used to express Jesus is God yet not the Father is being used. What would you like to see...?