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Of course not.
I just have experience with Catholic and Orthodox celebrations, so that's what I go off of--I've only been to one Protestant celebration of Easter and Christmas, and my family basically just has a fish fry at my uncle's at Easter with a prayer said over the food, and on Christmas, it's dinner at my grandparents', with a gift exchange and a smorgasbord of cutout cookies and buckeyes (I grew up unchurched).
Well, since I come from a church (though not Catholic) background, I see Catholicism (along with all her dissenting daughters) as a major departure from the Christianity that Jesus preached. I know little about Orthodox Catholic churches and how they differ from the Roman variety, but I do not see a great deal of difference in the practices. I still see idols, icons, and vestiges of sun worship. I see crucifixes and men in black robes and funny hats....I see monumental edifices for worship in various nations where Catholic (and Protestant) churches exist. I see monasteries where clergy are cloistered away and I hear about vows of chastity and poverty that apply to clergy but not to the church as an institution.Yep, you know absolutely nothing about Catholicism.
The nimbus is a left over from sun worship. Don't your icons have a halo? Do we find halos mentioned in scripture? The statues and icons speak for themselves. A simple Google search of Catholic sun worship will furnish evidence from many parts of the world. All bogus you say?
I have done very thorough research. Those you have listed are the very sources that promote the falsehood. Look outside those sources. We have access to so much information these days. There is no excuse for remaining ignorant. We can all make up our minds based upon what is in our hearts. It is foolish to think that we can't be mistaken, simply because we can justify our beliefs and practices. What if we are the ones Jesus "never knew"? (Matt 7:21-23) Self examination is very important. (I include myself in this)
Exactly! So why on earth would you want to retain the trappings of pagan worship and continue to promote what God says is offensive to him? I just don't understand this position.
It's not about the creation. It's about the Creator and what he thinks about the corruption that humans have placed on his creation. Humans are not capable of redeeming anything. God will bring his kingdom and rectify all that is wrong, but he is giving us all opportunity as free willed beings, to choose our position. He will not interfere with our choices. If people choose to believe the devil's lies, God will not prevent them. (2 Thess 2:9-12)
What is helpful and godly about tainted worship? Do you have a good knowledge about Israel's frequent sojourns into false worship? How did God respond to that? He dealt with his people most severely until they cleaned up their worship.
On the contrary, beating oneself up about sin is useless. We cannot eradicate sin from ourselves or anyone else, but we can try to live a godly life by following in Jesus' footsteps, confident of God's forgiveness if we are trying our best to do the right thing. He warned us about obedience to his teachings and said that love for God and what he taught should lead us to love the truth, not justify unrighteousness. God has never tolerated false worship and he told us to separate ourselves from it. That is a personal decision and it appears as if we have each made our choice.
You said you know little about Orthodoxy. In that spirit of humility, I would warmly invite you to see what the Orthodox Church has to offer in terms of both her life and teaching. You will find that many of your conceptions of Orthodoxy are merely reflections in a funhouse mirror.Well, since I come from a church (though not Catholic) background, I see Catholicism (along with all her dissenting daughters) as a major departure from the Christianity that Jesus preached. I know little about Orthodox Catholic churches and how they differ from the Roman variety, but I do not see a great deal of difference in the practices. I still see idols, icons, and vestiges of sun worship. I see crucifixes and men in black robes and funny hats....I see monumental edifices for worship in various nations where Catholic (and Protestant) churches exist. I see monasteries where clergy are cloistered away and I hear about vows of chastity and poverty that apply to clergy but not to the church as an institution.
Where would I find such things in original Christianity? Where will I find processions involving statues or icons being paraded through the streets? Where is the scriptural precedent for these things?
Then you haven't looked very hard. The Catholic Church runs hundreds and thousands of food pantries, orphanages, schools, soup kitchens and charitable organizations all around the world. My little Orthodox mission contributes our donated food to the food pantry of a local Catholic parish. Several members of my mission are regular members of missions to Mexico, where they help the locals to build livable houses and create means of obtaining safe drinking water, as well as running a school and an orphanage. Another priest I know of goes to Kenya and supports their funding of an orphanage and a school there as well. The same happens in various Latin American countries. Various Orthodox charities are often the only ones around to help Christians suffering terrible persecution in Syria and living as refugees.
You may feel free to pose this in the Orthodox Christian DIR. I would be more than happy to answer it there. Or if you like, I can make a topic with these questions and answer them there.
I have also traced the history of Christianity from the very beginnings, right on down through the centuries. I don't see the catastrophic apostasy that you imagine happened.
I would say the same thing back to you. We will not agree. The most we can do is appreciate or at least acknowledge each other's position.
Indeed.
I don't understand why you think it's trappings of sun worship.
But it is about the creation. You say bunnies, eggs and trees are idolatrous and evil, and that we should run far away from them. God certainly doesn't think so.
The Israelites had the issues of idolatry, sinful actions during worship of these idols and turning aside to false gods. Christians don't have any of these issues.
Indeed. And that saddens me.
JW's know all about the funhouse mirror....believe me.
If halos are not mentioned in the Bible but feature in all Catholic images, don't you wonder where they come from? In the images that I have posted previously, sun worship is very evident in a lot of Roman Catholic statuary. Why is the wafer in the shape of a circle? Jesus broke the bread, he did not shape it into circles.
It is about man ascribing false religious connotations to God's creation, not the creation itself, which is innocent. This is what insults the Creator.
This fails to address the fact that there were no such things as "monks" in first century Christianity.
I believe that your view of "history" is somewhat different to mine. I believe that the history of Christianity is that which is contained in NT scripture. What took place in the following centuries was all about the growth of the weeds of apostasy foretold by Jesus.
Were these ones ever held up by Christ as models to follow? Was not Jesus himself the model? (1 Pet 2:21)
If you realise that nothing happens in this world unless God permits it, you then understand why we cannot use violence to fight violence.
What constitutes "ordination"? Every Christian is an ordained minister of the kingdom. Knowing that there was no clergy class in first century Christianity demonstrates how far removed we are from the original. There was no earthly priesthood in the first century....do you understand that? The great High Priest is of course Jesus Christ, but he did not attain that status until he returned to heaven.
Actually saluting a flag is legally an act of worship in some nations such as the US.
One of the synonyms for venerate is worship. The word used in NT Greek for "worship" is pro·sky·ne′o which corresponds closely to the Hebrew hish·ta·chawah′. It conveys the thought of both obeisance to creatures and worship to God or a deity.
Do you really believe that many Catholic people understand that difference?
LOL were you expecting me to answer that in the affirmative? Works of art in the temple were not paraded through the streets, nor were they 'venerated'
Actually the ark was hidden from the people by a cover to prevent anyone from seeing holy things except those who were authorized to do so.
Can you not see from the scriptures what an icon is? It's an image. We don't need to "see" things to worship God. He is invisible, so any image made is a mere representation of someone's face. Since no one knows what Christ or his mother looked like, how can you possibly make an image of them? Would you carry around a photo of some woman and then tell everyone that this was a picture of your mother? How absurd would that be?
Can you show me scriptural evidence for that? I know that the church teaches it, but do the scriptures?
These were positions of responsibility and assistance in the congregations. These men were at no time called priests or monks.
What is an overseer? It simply means that he has a role that involves overseeing the roles of others. It was not power in a hierarchy. It simply meant that the buck stopped with him. He was a humble servant, not one decked out in fancy robes with a fancy title.
Well, the thing is....God commanded all that was done in connection with the temple. He made no such command to Christians. After the temple was destroyed in 70CE, no other temple was ever commissioned. The days of the earthly temple and what it represented were fulfilled in Christ who now acts as High Priest in the grand spiritual temple in heaven.
And what do you call the one with whom the buck stops? The one in charge. You're ignoring the elephant in the room, and it's sitting on top of you.
So what was the Sermon on the Mount and all of Jesus' parables? Friendly recommendations and optional suggestions?
Her words testify that John was reacting to Mary's and Jesus' presence.
We have entire households being baptized. Presumably, that means that even young children and infants were baptized.
Jesus' words and St. Paul's words about the Eucharist make clear that it is far, far more than a meaningless ritual. I recommend seriously reading John 6 and 1 Corinthians 11.This means that they are not precluded from anything but a meaningless ritual seen by many as just a kind of spiritual insurance policy.
Sorry, but this clearly contradicts Scripture. See John 3:1-5, Acts 2:38, Romans 6, and Titus 3:5.
If infants can testify clearly of Christ, and Jesus never forbade the little children, who are we to forbid them?
Feel free to keep your head in the sand and ignore what I've said. I know you won't listen to me anyway, regardless of how much Scripture I use.
You were suggesting that a baby's kick somehow justified infant baptism.....you have lost me on this one.
Using the scriptures and the principles contained in them, we can come to correct conclusions about many things. Baptism is just one of them. It is a dedicating of one's life to do the will of God first in life. It involves a vow to God which no one can make but the individual themselves. God takes a very dim view of those who make a commitment to him and then take an opposite course. (Eccl 5:4-6; 2 Pet 2:20-22) No one can make a personal commitment to God for us.
I was not saying that baptism itself was a meaningless ritual....I was saying that people who view it as some kind of spiritual insurance policy turned it into that. Unless the one making the dedication is capable of understanding the seriousness of the dedication, it means absolutely nothing.
Who is forbidding them? No one forbids any child coming to Christ....only those who fail to comprehend that doing any "act" connected to worship has to be done with love for God "with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength...and with love of neighbor as oneself." To the extent that a child can comprehend and follow through on that principle, they can become Christ's disciples.
You know what, I think you and I are saying the same thing with different words here. A bishop is like a grandfather in Orthodox circles, and a priest is like a father.
I think this is another case of us talking past each other. Yes, the Christian lives by a law of love, but this law of love has many instructions and commands attached to it--don't lust, forgive others, reject sin, be watchful, be humble, don't exalt yourself, etc.
You're discounting and downplaying what happened in the Biblical account. St. John didn't just kick. He leapt for joy within Elizabeth's womb when Mary came with Jesus, such that Elizabeth was compelled to declare Mary's and Jesus' blessedness.
Christianity is not about just learning and knowledge. It's about being transformed and reborn in Christ, putting off the old man of sin and putting on the new man of Christ. And baptism is the beginning of that transformation. To withhold baptism from infants is to say that they should not participate in the grace of the Christian life and receive the medicine that can cure the disease of sin within them.
It's often the case that adults do things wrong, while children are able to do them right without ever being taught. For example, hatred isn't something natural to children; it's something taught to them by society. Lying also doesn't come naturally, but is learned. Making fun of people is learned, not inherent. Heck, even in the martial arts world, toddlers are better at breaking their falls and getting into proper stances than adults, because they know how to do it innately, and only later are they taught wrong ways of doing things by society, actively or passively. Jesus didn't say that we have to be like adults to enter into the kingdom of Heaven. He said we have to be like little children.
I think part of the problem is, we come from entirely different worldviews, so we practically speak different languages from each other--the concepts, mindsets, worldviews and vocabulary are different, and our big problem is being able to understand each other in the first place.
I would agree. Priests aren't there to do the work for us, they're there to help us understand how to do the work and help us and encourage us through it. This is the heresy of "cultural Christianity."
I would agree.
But the thing is, God does always forgive us whenever we confess our sins. But we also need to repent of them. This, I think, is a problem with the inherent legalism of Western Christianity; sin is a crime committed, not a disease that is suffered from. And so if we just go through the motions, then according to legalism, we're saved. This is not Christianity.
Repentance isn't necessarily needed for forgiveness. Acknowledging our sin and the damage it's caused is enough. Repentance is needed for salvation, and remaining in that forgiveness.
There is forgiveness, but these people have rejected that forgiveness, and so it is no longer available to them, because they have continually refused to take the opportunity to accept the forgiveness and actually change.According to the apostle Paul, there will only be two kinds of people who will face the coming wrath of God....'those who don't know him, and those who fail to obey him'. (2 Thess 1:6-9) There is no forgiveness for such people.
I see the elders in that role. Elders are the older men in the congregation...not clergy; spiritually mature men who were appointed to lead the sheep.
You are using the account of one miraculously produced child kicking in his mother's womb to justify infant baptism. You seem to be losing sight of that. The apostle Paul stated that children are sanctified according to the spiritual standing of their parent(s). That precludes then from baptism until they are old enough to choose it for themselves. Baptism is a voluntary offering of oneself to become a footstep follower of Christ. No one can make that commitment for us. Its a very personal and serious decision.
I agree, children are often taught those undesirable traits from adults who should know better.
No repentance means no forgiveness. We can gain God's forgiveness by being forgiving.
Yes, I would agree with you on that. Failure to get a grip on one's actions and attitudes means that the old personality is retained where as we are told to strip off that old personality and put on the new one that conforms to God's standards.
And this is the way the Church continues to operate. The laypeople can and have smacked the bishops upside the head when they've gone astray.
In the beginning, Christianity and Judaism were nondistinct from one another. Christianity was just another new branch of Judaism that retained all the same trappings, rituals of practices and liturgical/standardized prayer as Judaism, but which changed to reflect our faith in Christ. There was ritual, but it was ritual with meaning behind it. There were Christian priests to care for the Christian flock and assist the community, just as there were Jewish priests to care for the Jewish flock and assist the community.
Yes. There are the Two Greatest Commandments, but these are each many-faceted and encompass many commands given by Christ. Saying that He only gave two commands and nothing else would be inaccurate.
And you seem to consistently want to downplay this account that was important enough to make it into the Gospels.
Newborns are certainly capable of experiencing emotion. And pre-natal infants are capable of perceiving what happens outside their mother's womb; they even learn accents while within their mother's womb, and can react to things happening outside.
Exactly, which means that what St. John did in the womb, we can do as newborns--recognizing and rejoicing in what is holy and pure and life-giving, and abhorring that which is evil, chaotic and destructive.
Many, many, many of them. Do you choose to go to school? No, your parents send you there; it's not your choice. Do you choose to learn personal hygiene? No, your parents make you learn it and follow it.
The difference is, you lean on your own understanding of the Scriptures, while I follow the command of St. Paul who told us to hold fast to the traditions we were taught, either written down (the Bible) or passed on orally (the Apostolic Tradition and the life of the Church).
Jesus does save us from both kinds of sin. We just need to turn to Him and let ourselves be healed of them.
This has been debunked on this forum more times than I care to count. You'd think people believed Christianity had no holy days before the Germanic tribes were converted...