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Did the Exodus occur?

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Over a million people running around the desert for forty years had to leave evidence behind, just imagine how many died in that period, there would be bones every where, but I suppose the devil hide them to test our faith lol.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Now, wait just a minute.

Let's propose, just for a moment, that my stated historical position is correct. No Exodus, no Conquest, no United Monarchy ... none of that. What difference does that make? Even as a Pagan who does not believe in a literal existence of Elohim, I propose to you it makes not one slightest iota of difference.

Culturally speaking, these are still powerful stories that transmit morals, a raison d'etre, and a sense of community--but they're not just pretty little "Just-So Stories" with a religious twist. They are a powerful narrative into the art of being human.

That is one thing that some versions of atheism ... not so much _lack_, but don't necessarily have, as confusing as that sounds. Humanism has a powerful motive, and has _some_ narratives to transmit that motive, but they use other methods to transmit those cultural values. Apathy-based atheism has no narrative ... and while I won't say it's lacking because it has no narrative, it also has no cohesiveness as a group (and doesn't necessarily need cohesiveness). Anti-Theism has some narratives ... and while I don't oppose their right to their beliefs, I do oppose their attempt to impose those beliefs upon others. Fundamentalist religions, such as some variations of Christianity and Islam, also attempt to impose their narratives, and this I also oppose.

But despite whose narrative we're discussing, the power of that narrative cannot be discounted.

That's one thing we've lost appreciation for in our modern, rationalist world: we no longer understand the power of narrative. We no longer see the truth that goes beyond mere historical details.

I still posit that the Hebrews were never in Egypt. I also posit that, even of the Hebrew God existed, that matters not one bit.

My answer in context was directed to his reply. I understand the piece to be much more then just mythology.


I do understand the cultural importance as well as the theological importance. Allegory and rhetoric and metaphors were powerful tools.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Over a million people running around the desert for forty years had to leave evidence behind, just imagine how many died in that period, there would be bones every where, but I suppose the devil hide them to test our faith lol.
Maybe they just picked up after themselves. Hey, could have happen. They could have been history's first neat freaks. "The lord works in mysterious ways."
 

jay86k

New Member
Personally, I believe that the exodus and the Hyksos expulsion are two versions of the same historical event. I doubt either side has it 100% correct. I think that some of the "Hyksos" probably assimilated with other Semites/Canaanites and mesopotamians and that resulted in the Hebrew/Israelite people. Just my opinion though, maybe I'm wrong.

Also, I noticed a few people commented on Jacobvici's "Exodus Decoded." I think he makes a few good points in that documentary. You just have to sift through a lot of garbage to find them.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
The Hebrews were NEVER in Egypt. There were no plagues, no Exodus, no wandering in the desert, no Conquest, and no United Monarchy.
If you've not already read it, I recommend Moore and Kelle's _Biblical History and Israel's Past_.
Thank you for the recommendation.

From pages 124-125 …
By far, the most common type of reconstruction that seeks to use the Bible, ancient texts, and the results os archaeology to answer the questions of the identity and unity of early Israel is called the "mixed multitude theory." The archaeologist Ann Killebrew is one of the most recent promoters, but theories that envision Israel as a conglomeration of different groups have been around for several decades and are almost universally accepted by historians. Some groups commonly assumed to have been part of early include the aforementioned Hapiru and Shasu, which appear in ancient texts. The Hapiru may be related to the Hebrews of the HBOT. A different group, the Shasu were described in Egyptian texts as originating in the Transjordan ("the Shasu of Edom") and being nomadic pastoralists. The Hapiru and Shasu appear side by side in some texts, and seem to be similar groups of people. Both were on the margins of society, and both caused problems for the Canaanite city-states. Also making the Shasu attractive as potential early Israelites is the ancient report that at least on group of them appears to have worshipped Yahweh, as there is a territory known to the Egyptians as the "Shasu-land of Yahweh."

Besides the Hapiru and Shasu, mixed-multiple Israel has room for many groups attested in the Bible or implied by the biblical stories, including some, or even all, of the groups assumed to be Israel in the three classic models. Thus, a group who escaped from Egypt, or their descendants, could have a place, as could some of the groups named in some of the stories of early Israel, such as the Calebites and Kenites, that Israel appears to subsume. Killebrew summarizes this hypothetical early confederation nicely: "t most likely comprised diverse elements of Late Bronze Age society, namely, the rural Canaanite population, displaced peasants and pastoralists, and lawless 'apiru [Hapiru] and Shasu. Fugative or runaway Semitic slaves from New Kingdom may have joined this multitude. Nonindigenous groups mentioned in the biblical narrative, including Middianites, Kenites, and Amalekites … may have also formed an essential element. In short, the mixed multitude theory's answer to the question of Israel's identity is very broad. Israel could have potentially included almost every group that the HB/OT mentions in the stories of early Israel, along with many of the groups that appear to have made up the rural population of Late Bronze Palestine according to ancient texts, and all the groups that scholars believe may have inhabited the Early Iron Age highland villages. This depiction of early Israel as composed of many different types of people is the norm today.
Thanks again ...
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Thank you for the recommendation.

From pages 124-125 …
Thanks again ...

Lets quote mine your link a little better.


most likely comprised diverse elements of Late Bronze Age society, namely, the rural Canaanite population,


Which in itself was multi cultural.


displaced peasants and pastoralists, and lawless 'apiru [Hapiru] and Shasu.


Here the scholar clearly oversteps her bounds and heads off into her personal opinion.


To date, there is no known connection to the Apiru or Shasu and she is probably following Redfords work which has been refuted for quite some time.


Shasu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
they are differentiated from the Canaanites


Habiru - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since the discovery of the 2nd millennium inscriptions mentioning the Habiru there have been many theories linking these to the Hebrews of the Bible. Anson Rainey has argued that that "the plethora of attempts to relate apiru (Habiru) to the gentilic ibri are all nothing but wishful thinking."




I really wish you would quit regurgitating poor work that has been refuted for ages due to bias.


Not only that, there really still is no connection to Egypt in your link
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Just in case …
outhouse has been on my ignore list for an extended period of time - something which I believe he is fully aware of. If any of his posts are framed as responses to me, it is solely for effect.​
 

outhouse

Atheistically
If anyone would like to contribute to a connection between Israelites and Habiru and or Shasu please feel free to join in.
 

steeltoes

Junior member
Maybe they just picked up after themselves. Hey, could have happen. They could have been history's first neat freaks. "The lord works in mysterious ways."
Good point. They didn't want to disturb the environment so they picked up all their garbage and took it with them. Environmentalists from way back.
 
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