Jews call for the dismantling of the Zionist state of Israel

[dantech]

This is not a political website, and you guys are not discussing anything in regards to religion. Politics and the blaming game are all fun and dandy, but either take it to a politics website, or the Off-topic section. This is not the place for this kind of debate.

 

[metis]

That is not true. Here's from their own site :

"We will fight every effort to drag our youth into the evil Zionist army."

"True Torah Jews is once again putting efforts on many fronts to get the world’s attention turned to our protest against the Zionists."

"True Torah Jews is launching a costly radio campaign as our part in this battle. Radio ads have brought us results in the past; they have proved to be one of the best ways of fulfilling the Satmar Rebbe’s directive to make known to the non-Jewish world that the Zionists are not the representatives of the Jewish people,"

Taken from : Let Our Voices Be Heard! | True Torah Jews

So their stance is clearly against Zionism and not only about putting their kids into Israeli military.

Peace.

No, I did tell the truth as this relates to the issue of the Messiah, and the belief of many of the chasidim that Israel should not be recognized as a Jewish state because the Messiah hasn't yet come and, therefore, the secular government isn't valid in their opinion.

What's going on in Israel that has so many of them rankled is that the Israeli government is discussing whether to end the exemption that the chasidim have in terms of not having to go into the IDF.

Now, since so many of these same chasidim elements actually live in Israel, obviously this doesn't translate out to the idea that they can't live there, but they just don't consider it a Jewish state along Biblical lines, including the Biblical borders. If you support their argument, then Israel's borders would have to be expanded from where they are now, so watch out for that what you wish for.

 

[loverOfTruth]

No, I did tell the truth as this relates to the issue of the Messiah, and the belief of many of the chasidim that Israel should not be recognized as a Jewish state because the Messiah hasn't yet come and, therefore, the secular government isn't valid in their opinion.

What's going on in Israel that has so many of them rankled is that the Israeli government is discussing whether to end the exemption that the chasidim have in terms of not having to go into the IDF.

I don't disagree with that. That is certainly part of their complain. However, I disagree with your statement that it has nothing to do with Zionism and that is quite clear from their statements I have quoted. There's a reason why they call it 'evil Zionist army'. Watch the video I posted.

Now, since so many of these same chasidim elements actually live in Israel, obviously this doesn't translate out to the idea that they can't live there, but they just don't consider it a Jewish state along Biblical lines, including the Biblical borders. If you support their argument, then Israel's borders would have to be expanded from where they are now, so watch out for that what you wish for.

I don't wish that ... but even according to our prophecies ... it will happen.

 

[metis]

However, I disagree with your statement that it has nothing to do with Zionism and that is quite clear from their statements I have quoted.

I don't recall that I said anything about "Zionism" one way or the other.

 

[Tumah]

I am a Haredi Jew (not to be confused with Hassidic). I was at the gathering here in Israel.

The purpose of the gathering was not aimed at denigrating Zionism. There were a few religious-Zionist Rabbis and schools in attendance. There were even soldiers in attendance. The purpose of the gathering was proclaiming our belief of the primacy of Torah study over anything else, bar none. It was in response to the new draft law that aims to remove students from the study-halls. That's it.

 

[Breathe]

I am a Haredi Jew (not to be confused with Hassidic). I was at the gathering here in Israel.

The purpose of the gathering was not aimed at denigrating Zionism. There were a few religious-Zionist Rabbis and schools in attendance. There were even soldiers in attendance. The purpose of the gathering was proclaiming our belief of the primacy of Torah study over anything else, bar none. It was in response to the new draft law that aims to remove students from the study-halls. That's it.

Can you explain more about what's going on, please?

 

[Tumah]

Can you explain more about what's going on, please?

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the craziness going on in this thread, where Muslims conflate the various beliefs of a group of families within Neturei Karta, the rest of Neturei Karta, Satmar and the rest of the Haredei public all mixed together along with their own interpretation of what anti-Zionism means. That's not hard to understand. They do it because it helps them validate their own anti-Zionist feelings.

Or were you just referring to new draft law in Israel? Basically, it aims to place all Haredim (outside 1,800 students) into the army. What is relevant to the rallies is that by doing so, they will be removing those students from their Torah seminaries, which for us is a serious issue.

I don't know the details of what took place at the rally in NY (and I'm sure the media took lots of pictures of any fringe elements that were probably there to further their own causes), but in the one here is Israel, there was no mention of Zionism. The whole thing was about 6 hours long, with the actual program only 2 hours. We prayed the regular evening services, read some Psalms, said some standard prayers for salvation. Then there was an announcement telling people not to go to the army even on threat of imprisonment. Then we went danced a little and went home.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You would feel right at home in Israel with it's gay bars and strip joints. But Palestine is a Holy Land and the darling zionists telling the African Jews they are not white enough and the real Jews, Christians and Muslims being discriminated against and the long list of war crimes and UN resolutions being broken etc etc etc etc etc is a problem for the non gays who are not seeking Tel Aviv hot spots for some sexual 'fun in the sun'

Blah, blah, blah. At least I would have rights in Israel that I wouldn't have anywhere else in the Middle East. I don't care about your "holy land". I care about democracy and individualism. Don't talk to me about "discrimination" when you Muslims discriminate against non-Muslims all the time in your theocracies. Non-Muslims aren't even allowed in Mecca at all. In some Muslim countries, they can't even put crosses on their churches, evangelize to others and Muslims are given the death penalty if they apostatize from Islam. Just a little bit ago, your Muslim brethren were bombing and tearing apart Christian churches in your homeland. Did you speak out or oppose that? Were you on this forum pouring your righteous indignation out over it? So don't you dare pull the "discrimination" card with me when your co-religionists are the biggest hypocrites in the world when it comes to that. Only the American Christian right comes close to your hypocrisy.

 

[Avi1001]

I don't know the details of what took place at the rally in NY (and I'm sure the media took lots of pictures of any fringe elements that were probably there to further their own causes), but in the one here is Israel, there was no mention of Zionism. The whole thing was about 6 hours long, with the actual program only 2 hours. We prayed the regular evening services, read some Psalms, said some standard prayers for salvation. Then there was an announcement telling people not to go to the army even on threat of imprisonment. Then we went danced a little and went home.

I would like to get the thoughts of some posters. In other countries, conscientious objectors (CO's) have to do some jail time. Is this a good idea for this case ?

I have some mixed feelings, but lean slightly toward some jail time for CO's. What do you think ?

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Nice try at distorting the information to justify your obvious support for killing Israeli civilians.

lol nice try at distorting the facts

remind me again how many Israelis by lobbed missiles were killed versus Palestinians killed by Israeli's in say the last 2 years?

I would suggest to Hamas that if they want peace, don't lob missiles and mortars into Israel.

I'm sure the British Army and Palestinians said exactly the same thing when the Stern Gang and Irgun and Mossad brought terror to the region when it all began

Starting about 10 years ago and lasting roughly 4 years, Hamas and Hezbollah launched a total of roughly 14,000 missiles and mortars into Israel, overwhelmingly against civilian targets.

Maybe because they don't forget Sabra and Shatilla, or Jenin, or the daily Lebanese airspace incursions by Israeli jets against International Law or a million different other reasons

No matter how you want to portray Israel and its people, it is totally hypocritical for you to condemn imaginary "terrorist" attacks by Israel but then justify what Hamas and Hezbollah have been doing.

Hamas and Hezbullah are new to the scene. They are a reaction. They did not exist 20 years ago. They ONLY were formed because of the decades of European terrorism started by Irgun and Stern so it's disingenuous of you to ignore the facts and blame the resistor to aggression rather than the root of the problem. Nice try though.

It's people like you that are causing the deaths of so many Arabs because they are so willing to support the attack on Israel, but then they whine when Israel responds. You simply cannot have it both ways, and it's totally disingenuous for you to try.

Nice try but twisting facts won't work with me. Terrorism is terrorism. I support no terrorists of either side like you. That's where we differ.

BTW, did you actually read the news accounts about the Jordanian judge, or didn't the news information on that incident actually get to you? Whether the news accounts are reliable, that I don't know, and supposedly both Israel and Jordan are looking into this. Of course, it's quite obvious that you have already made up your mind.

I have more access to news of the region that you will ever have. Your news is second hand and translated into English. You can keep Rupert Murdoch and Fox and Wolf Blitzer and CNN

 

[Pink Top Hat]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you referring to the craziness going on in this thread, where Muslims conflate the various beliefs of a group of families within Neturei Karta, the rest of Neturei Karta, Satmar and the rest of the Haredei public all mixed together along with their own interpretation of what anti-Zionism means. That's not hard to understand. They do it because it helps them validate their own anti-Zionist feelings.

Or were you just referring to new draft law in Israel? Basically, it aims to place all Haredim (outside 1,800 students) into the army. What is relevant to the rallies is that by doing so, they will be removing those students from their Torah seminaries, which for us is a serious issue.

I don't know the details of what took place at the rally in NY (and I'm sure the media took lots of pictures of any fringe elements that were probably there to further their own causes), but in the one here is Israel, there was no mention of Zionism. The whole thing was about 6 hours long, with the actual program only 2 hours. We prayed the regular evening services, read some Psalms, said some standard prayers for salvation. Then there was an announcement telling people not to go to the army even on threat of imprisonment. Then we went danced a little and went home.

as you admitted

you don't know what happened in NYC

that's what the thread is about

 

[Pink Top Hat]

Blah, blah, blah. At least I would have rights in Israel that I wouldn't have anywhere else in the Middle East. I don't care about your "holy land". I care about democracy and individualism. Don't talk to me about "discrimination" when you Muslims discriminate against non-Muslims all the time in your theocracies. Non-Muslims aren't even allowed in Mecca at all. In some Muslim countries, they can't even put crosses on their churches, evangelize to others and Muslims are given the death penalty if they apostatize from Islam. Just a little bit ago, your Muslim brethren were bombing and tearing apart Christian churches in your homeland. Did you speak out or oppose that? Were you on this forum pouring your righteous indignation out over it? So don't you dare pull the "discrimination" card with me when your co-religionists are the biggest hypocrites in the world when it comes to that. Only the American Christian right comes close to your hypocrisy.

You can dance the tango with your boyfriend in a pink tutu and feather boa for all I care in Tel Aviv's biggest shopping mall. I don't care about your 'gayness' but don't lecture me on discrimination till after you educate yourself on that word and how blacks and Christians and Muslims are discriminated against, and orthodox women forced to sit in the back of buses etc etc etc.

You clearly read too much jihadwatch for your information .

My belief is anyone should be able to enter Mecca. They did under our prophet.

Muslim Brotherhood who attacked the Copts as Muslims formed lines to guard and protect them, are now declared Terrorists in Egypt and hunted down and jailed and assets seized.

Tell me this.

Why is it the USA refuses to declare them terrorists?

or can you explain why it is that Egypt and Saudis and UAE have closed down their networks and TV channels and accounts and HQ's and are jailing them and the British have opened a new HQ office for them in Downtown London?

You see all that ******** doesn't work with me. The question you should be asking yourself is why is your government supporting the FSA cannibal rebels in Syria and all over the region while we are actively fighting them and jailing and declaring them terrorist groups?

 

[Pink Top Hat]

I would like to get the thoughts of some posters. In other countries, conscientious objectors (CO's) have to do some jail time. Is this a good idea for this case ?

I have some mixed feelings, but lean slightly toward some jail time for CO's. What do you think ?

well I suppose you have to ask yourself this


If you are a Jew and your religion tells you not to kill and your Moses prophet tells you the commandment not to kill and you don't believe that Israel is a real state and is actually against your very own religion. Then would you knowing all that voluntarily join the IOF killing machine and drop white phosphorus on babies heads because Netanyahu and his gang of psychopaths told you to or would you refuse? Would you be a CO or not?

 

[Sees]

You can dance the tango with your boyfriend in a pink tutu and feather boa for all I care in Tel Aviv's biggest shopping mall. I don't care about your 'gayness' but don't lecture me on discrimination till after you educate yourself on that word and how blacks and Christians and Muslims are discriminated against, and orthodox women forced to sit in the back of buses etc etc etc.

You clearly read too much jihadwatch for your information .

My belief is anyone should be able to enter Mecca. They did under our prophet.

Muslim Brotherhood who attacked the Copts as Muslims formed lines to guard and protect them, are now declared Terrorists in Egypt and hunted down and jailed and assets seized.

Tell me this.

Why is it the USA refuses to declare them terrorists?

or can you explain why it is that Egypt and Saudis and UAE have closed down their networks and TV channels and accounts and HQ's and are jailing them and the British have opened a new HQ office for them in Downtown London?

You see all that ******** doesn't work with me. The question you should be asking yourself is why is your government supporting the FSA cannibal rebels in Syria and all over the region while we are actively fighting them and jailing and declaring them terrorist groups?

How did Muhammad feel about polytheists in Mecca?

 

[Revoltingest]

I drove from West of Cairo all through downtown today onto the Ring Road and crossed the intersection of Raba'a al Adaweya that famous by now tiny square made to look huge on Western TV screens by the MB supporting Al Jazeera where the Morsi rioting and what they called massacre took place and past Sadat memorial and in between millions of Muslims and the only scary thing was the honking of the horns and traffic

"Death to traffic jams!"
(It's a quote from an Iranian cab driver I heard of.)

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You can dance the tango with your boyfriend in a pink tutu and feather boa for all I care in Tel Aviv's biggest shopping mall. I don't care about your 'gayness'

Who said I'm gay? I didn't. And what's with the tired stereotypes? Also, which Islamic state could I be out and proud as a gay, bisexual or transgender man without being arrested or killed?

but don't lecture me on discrimination till after you educate yourself on that word and how blacks and Christians and Muslims are discriminated against, and orthodox women forced to sit in the back of buses etc etc etc.

You clearly read too much jihadwatch for your information .

My belief is anyone should be able to enter Mecca. They did under our prophet.

Muslim Brotherhood who attacked the Copts as Muslims formed lines to guard and protect them, are now declared Terrorists in Egypt and hunted down and jailed and assets seized.

Tell me this.

Why is it the USA refuses to declare them terrorists?

or can you explain why it is that Egypt and Saudis and UAE have closed down their networks and TV channels and accounts and HQ's and are jailing them and the British have opened a new HQ office for them in Downtown London?

You see all that ******** doesn't work with me. The question you should be asking yourself is why is your government supporting the FSA cannibal rebels in Syria and all over the region while we are actively fighting them and jailing and declaring them terrorist groups?

Clean up your own filthy house first.

 

[dantech]

lol nice try at distorting the facts

remind me again how many Israelis by lobbed missiles were killed versus Palestinians killed by Israeli's in say the last 2 years?

I really didn't want to join in on this but who cares anymore??

So your argument is not that Israelis sent more missiles, it's that their missiles are more successful? Very good point on your part! I'm sure the Palestinians are shooting missiles hoping they don't hurt anyone.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I really didn't want to join in on this but who cares anymore??

You are wasting your time. My recommendation: don't feed it.

 

[dantech]

You are wasting your time. My recommendation: don't feed it.

I know you're right. I'm weak for trolls.

 

[Levite]

"The zionists created all these problem with the arabs, and now they want to drag us to fight their wars for them"

"Judaism and Zionism cannot co exist"

10's of 1000's of Jews who follow the bible rally in Manhattan New York and call for mass protests today Tuesday across the world to denounce Zionism and the illegal creation of the Jewish State of Israel.

https://twitter.com/TraditionalJews

At very short notice huge crowds of Jews who follow their bible protested the illegal creation of the state of Israel which they say is against the Jewish religion.

How much longer will the USA support the Zionists who contradict Jewish Law and Judaism, now that the issue is getting too big to ignore on MSM?.

Are all these Jews now going to be called anti semites because they are against the creation of Israel?

Every culture and faith has its lunatic fringe.

These people are far-right extremists, largely funded by the Satmar Chasidic community and the Neturei Karta group, both crazy fanatical communities.

Their complaint against Zionism is that they believe it contravenes a duty for God to see to the return of the Jewish People to the Land of Israel with the coming of the messiah.

If you examine how these extremist groups envision the messianic age, and the treatment of non-Jews in such an age, you will see that their "anti-Zionism" is in no way reflective of any kind of humanitarian outrage on behalf of Palestinians or any other non-Jewish group.

To try and present this kind of nuttiness as anything serious, anything moored in either common sense or human decency, is to completely trivialize the entire set of issues of Zionism, Judaism, and Middle East relations; and to undermine any kind of real discussion of social issues with moderate or liberal religious people by granting sweeping mainstream authenticity to the most rigidly fundamentalist element of a religion.