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Why is the Torah so special to Jews?

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
I believe (and CMike, please correct me if I am wrong) that the reference to the Noachide laws is an acknowledgement that these are also found in the Torah, by example if not explicitly.
Of course they are 'alluded' to in the Torah... The deluge narrative is there and so is its aftermath. :shrug:
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I know you are absolutely correct, forgive me for thinking that god's reality and will could be apprehended, and grasped, as something universal, to all people and not just to Jews alone.
Nice way to troll your own thread. Like I asked earlier are you sure you read the Jewish scripture? And are you sure you honesty whish to discuss it other than complaining about your self induced ignorance about the text?

Are you completely foreign to the phenomenon of a people and a culture having their own traditions? I personally find it positive that they have no dogma to submit others to their traditions and ethos. Sounds healthy to me. In this day and age, almost like a fantasy of the good kind.
This is precisely correct.
What was I thinking?:shrug:
An excellent question.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Horrific by our modern standards, true ... but we live in a different culture.

In Hebrew culture, the Amalekites were not just an enemy people, they were a people that were completely dedicated to the destruction of the Hebrews. They had repeatedly attacked the weak, slaughtered women and children, stole what they could, and destroyed what they could not steal. They are evil incarnate, so G_d orders the Amalekites destroyed utterly. Today, of course, we would call the assessment of an entire people based solely on their ethnicity as "evil incarnate" as racism ... but back then, the concept did not exist.

To read a text from another culture without some understanding of that culture is a sure-fire recipe for failure to understand the text.

The whole society was evil.

Also, they had more chutzpah than other else. G-D just did the ten plagues in Egypt, and despite this the Amalekites still attacked the jews.
 

arcanum

Active Member
Horrific by our modern standards, true ... but we live in a different culture.

In Hebrew culture, the Amalekites were not just an enemy people, they were a people that were completely dedicated to the destruction of the Hebrews. They had repeatedly attacked the weak, slaughtered women and children, stole what they could, and destroyed what they could not steal. They are evil incarnate, so G_d orders the Amalekites destroyed utterly. Today, of course, we would call the assessment of an entire people based solely on their ethnicity as "evil incarnate" as racism ... but back then, the concept did not exist.

To read a text from another culture without some understanding of that culture is a sure-fire recipe for failure to understand the text.
Well you know the old saying, history is written by the winners. We can't know how evil the Amalekites were at this point? We have no written record of that lost people and who knows how much was embellished in the text in order to justify such slaughter.
 

technomage

Finding my own way
Well you know the old saying, history is written by the winners. We can't know how evil the Amalekites were at this point? We have no written record of that lost people and who knows how much was embellished in the text in order to justify such slaughter.
Arcanum, I doubt the slaughter ever occurred, just as I doubt the Amalekites ever existed.

That's the point of an etiological myth. ;)
 

arcanum

Active Member
Arcanum, I doubt the slaughter ever occurred, just as I doubt the Amalekites ever existed.

That's the point of an etiological myth. ;)
Really? Why would you say they probably never existed? I think certain facts can be taken as fact in the biblical text, like naming of different tribes and regions, why would they just invent a tribe? This seems highly improbable to me.
 

technomage

Finding my own way
Really? Why would you say they probably never existed?
* There are no references to them in other cultures (the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Mesopotamians, etc)
* There is no archaeological evidence for such a culture
* There are several other an-historical assertions in the Tanakh (basically, everything before the Divided Kingdoms)
* The texts that talk about the Amalekites was written around 600-400 BCE, long after the purported events took place.

There's a lot of stuff in the Tanakh that, flatly, never occurred. It's not "fiction," because the purpose is not to entertain: these are "myths", meaning cultural stories meant to teach theological and cultural values.
 

arcanum

Active Member
* There are no references to them in other cultures (the Egyptians, the Canaanites, the Mesopotamians, etc)
* There is no archaeological evidence for such a culture
* There are several other an-historical assertions in the Tanakh (basically, everything before the Divided Kingdoms)
* The texts that talk about the Amalekites was written around 600-400 BCE, long after the purported events took place.

There's a lot of stuff in the Tanakh that, flatly, never occurred. It's not "fiction," because the purpose is not to entertain: these are "myths", meaning cultural stories meant to teach theological and cultural values.
Can we ever really know how many unsung tribes and cultures have vanished from this planet without leaving much if any of a trace on the historical record?
 

technomage

Finding my own way
Can we ever really know how many unsung tribes and cultures have vanished from this planet without leaving much if any of a trace on the historical record?
If those tribes are living in remote areas, not connected to other tribes, and keep to themselves, possibly. But if the Amalekites had actually existed, they did not live in a remote area, they were connected with other tribes, and they did not keep to themselves.

We know a lot more about ANE history than about other areas, precisely because we have so many cultures there that kept written records. Admittedly, that knowledge is not all correlated as to date, and there are still a lot of questions, but there are also a lot of answers. But the first step to learning the real facts is to let go of our preconceptions and follow the data.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It's interesting that the question "Why is the Torah so special to Jews?" is posted in the Religious Debates forum rather than the Judaism DIR.
 

dantech

Well-Known Member
I'm actually glad that it is. In the Judaism DIR, I could not comment.

I think he means that it implies that the OP didn't honestly want an informative answer. Instead, he wanted to debate why we should or shouldn't (probably the latter) hold the Torah as such.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
It's interesting that the question "Why is the Torah so special to Jews?" is posted in the Religious Debates forum rather than the Judaism DIR.
Not so interesting as what the title really should say to reflect this passive aggressive thread is: 'What's so special about the Torah?'. However since it is a superficial attempt to pass it as a legitimate and constructive thread, the title is 'neutral' and therefore is posted in the open forum.
 

technomage

Finding my own way
Not so interesting as what the title really should say to reflect this passive aggressive thread is: 'What's so special about the Torah?'. However since it is a superficial attempt to pass it as a legitimate and constructive thread, the title is 'neutral' and therefore is posted in the open forum.
With the right goad, even the mightiest sandworm can be turned from its purpose. ;)
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I think he means that it implies that the OP didn't honestly want an informative answer. Instead, he wanted to debate why we should or shouldn't (probably the latter) hold the Torah as such.
You mean a pretentious Bible-bashing thread focusing on the Amalekites and Midianites? It must be rerun week.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
With the right goad, even the mightiest sandworm can be turned from its purpose. ;)
I see no sandworm, nor might. Just a rehash. However, it is obvious to me and other members that our very first posts were intended for the 'third party' crowd.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Having been exposed to a fair share Hebrew sacred scripture and writings since I was a child, and now with the critical eye of a rational adult and able to compare them ( if I may be so bold) I have to ask, why is it that the Torah is the most central piece of Jewish literature above all others? I ask this in no disrespect, I'm just trying to understand why the Torah is so important to Jews? I guess the same question could be said, why is the Quran so special to Muslims or why are the gospels so central to Christians, but I'm asking so that non Jews understand, why is it that the Torah is so central out of all the biblical literature?
The Torah is the means in which the Jews bind with God. It also defines Judaism.
 
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