Have you ever found a single bug in Islam?

[technomage]

If a man beat me, I'd knock him out. If he lightly beat me, I'd lightly knock him out.

I smack my wife on a regular basis. She does me as well. :hugkiss:

 

[Penumbra]

I smack my wife on a regular basis. She does me as well. :hugkiss:

Well if it's consensual then that's just plain sexy.

If it's not, it's domestic violence. That whole Qur'anic verse about wife beating is extremely sexist.

 

[Sees]

I smack my wife on a regular basis. She does me as well. :hugkiss:

Feeling feisty smacks or be good smacks?

 

[technomage]

Feeling feisty smacks or be good smacks?

Nope. I behave myself so she doesn't have to.

 

[technomage]

Well if it's consensual then that's just plain sexy.

If it's not, it's domestic violence. That whole Qur'anic verse about wife beating is extremely sexist.

I generally strive to refrain from judging other cultures in an ethnocentric manner ... but yeah. The aspects of "power over" within Christianity are, to me, highly objectionable. The explicit allowance for violence, even violence within controlled limits, is completely unacceptable.

 

[shawn001]

hello guys! I have joined such type of religious community for the first time, and I'm curious about knowing answer for the question "have you ever found any bug in Islam?" if yes, please tell me. I was sort of polytheist before, but now i'm just a Muslim after knowing strong arguments of Muslim scholars.

Edited later: i mean is there any Islamic teaching against humanity? against science? against moral values? any mistake you ever found in Quran?

Yes, Adam and Eve were both 90 feet tall.

That is not science.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, but to be fair Quran had a far greater effect on the world than shekspier's. Particularly in the first few centuries it transformed the wild arab tribes to the most advanced civilization in their own time.

I can't help but wonder how accurate such a perception is.

It is not exactly easy to tell for certain how much of an impact the Quran made, and how much of it was positive. It certainly brought a lot of a sense of unity of purpose, yet there is strong evidence that this was not necessarily a good thing or a well-realized, fully healthy change.

From my admitedly outsider's perspective, it seems that Muslims spend a remarkably large amount of their religious efforts dealing with what can only be called mistakes, many of them undeniably caused by their own insistence on valuing scripture and tradition so much.

While I understand that it is reckless to say what people that I barely understand should do, it is still very difficult to doubt that a more relaxed approach to religion and tradition would greatly benefit Muslims in general.

Nor do I think it is out of my place to have or state my opinions on the matter, either. A doctrine which states that I was created by a God which they understand better than I do is being quite bold. It should be prepared to deal with some questioning of my own, if for no other reason because surrendering to God's will is supposed to be a non-trivial matter.

 

[LuisDantas]

if someone driving a car hits an old man walking on side of road, will you blame traffic police department? or will you blame the man driving the car?
same case is here, Allah has prohibited killing of people, if some Muslim killed another Muslim, you can't blame Islam.

Yet if they happened to be living in harmony with each other it would only be fair to give Islam its due credit, isn't that right?

This needs some clarification to truly work, Farrukh. Going by this short form alone it really looks like Islam can't be blamed just because. It looks like it has simply been decided that whatever works should fairly be credited to Islam, while anything clearly wrong must be presumed a priori to not be Islam's fault.

Such a stance may or may not be usual or even correct - I assume there is no consensus on the matter - but it certainly does not look very wise or very respectful of Muslims, to say nothing of non-Muslims.

If we seek a physician to deal with our illness and he does manage to heal us, then it is to the doctor's credit that he did. But if he fails, even if it is not his fault, it must still be acknowledged that he did fail.

 

[YmirGF]

Well if it's consensual then that's just plain sexy.

If it's not, it's domestic violence. That whole Qur'anic verse about wife beating is extremely sexist.

To be perfectly honest, Penumbra, when I first began researching Islam 13 years ago what began to become obvious is that it had serious problems with sexuality. Repression was the answer to sexuality, unless you were dutifully under your husband... whenever he felt like it...

I also wholeheartedly agree that Islam is very illogical. Heck, it's not even particularly reasonable unless an apologist crayon's a happy face over top it to help choke it down. Allah is a misogynistic fascist.

 

[FearGod]

I do not know if you would consider it to be a "bug" or not, but there is this.

My wife considered converting. She was studying with some friends, but decided against converting upon discovering that our marriage would be suspended. (Surah 60:10)

The verse says

O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise. (60:10)

As you see, it is a conditional state that the women are emigrants and of course if they will be returned back to the disbelievers then in that time of ignorance they will be killed.

So it is God's wisdom that those women are no more allowed to be returned for the disbelievers and should be protected while in the Muslim lands.

But i wonder that it seems that you are proud that your wife preferred you than the creator of the universe,if me,i'll love what ever she loves,only because she is that good woman for me.

 

[FearGod]

By "bug", do you mean some sort of flaw, imperfection or questionable part?

I take it that literally at least "Islam" means "perfection", so I suppose we should take some care in defining what we are talking about.

If you mean to know whether the Islamic Faith as it actually exists far as human beings that have not converted can perceive it has anything worth of criticism, then I must say that sure, it has quite a few troublesome characteristics.

Chief among them, the insistence on relying on the text of the Quran above all else, creating perhaps irresolvible impasses when there is no clear consensus on how to properly interpret it.

Related matters are the insistence on seeing atheism as wrong (it quite simply is not) and even "the highest sin"; the reliance on central authorities even when it is not a particularly practical or constructive arrangement; and the lack of adequate means of dealing with particularly unwise interpretations of the doctrine.

Or, as I should probably say since that is what I mean, it is simply not very dharmic, either in origin or in practice.

Of course, a blanket statement is by definition unfair. I do not mean that Islam is no good. Even leaving aside the grammatical nonsense of such a statement, it is still clearly true that it is constructive for many, many people. I just don't see evidence that it is perfect or destined to become such.

How do you decide that atheism isn't wrong ?

Every country has its own rules and in order to avoid any penalties,then we should believe those rules and follow them.

For example God says committing an adultery is an awful thing and who did it will be punished,now atheists may say such law is silly and say i am free to do sex with any woman on earth even some found it acceptable that brothers and sisters can do it if not harming anyone and that since they love each others to the degree of sexual relationship then they can do it.

God can't be seen but disbelieving and rejecting his rules and orders is what supposed to be punishable.

 

[LuisDantas]

How do you decide that atheism isn't wrong ?

It might technically be wrong. It is conceivable.

For my personal choices, however, it is as good as I could possibly want. Disbelief in God isn't even a choice for me; being honest about it might be.

Atheism is much like, say, being tall or homosexual. You may fail to accept that you are born that way and suffer for it, but it is still simply how you are.

Every country has its own rules and in order to avoid any penalties,then we should believe those rules and follow them.

I beg to differ.

We must respect rules to the extent that they exist and reflect the desires and policies of whatever authority backs them up, certainly.

But at least in general, there is no need to believe in them or agree with them. Rules are often unfair, vague, or simply just plain silly.

Even following rules is basically optional. We may suffer penalties if we do not, right. But following them is certainly not always safe or even morally defensable. They, too, have penalties of their own.

For example God says committing an adultery is an awful thing and who did it will be punished, now atheists may say such law is silly and say i am free to do sex with any woman on earth even some found it acceptable that brothers and sisters can do it if not harming anyone and that since they love each others to the degree of sexual relationship then they can do it.

The truth of the matter, FearGod, is that if God exists he is not exactly making a point of making his existence and his judgements clear, at least to me.

If anything, he seems to truly want me to make up my own mind and judge the morality of situations by my own discernment.

Maybe you believe God exists and wants me to accept the truth of his existence and of his gift of the Quran to humanity. It seems that most Muslims believe in that or something very close to that. But I just don't see it.

Instead, what I see is that very consistently the judgement of people with sincere good will and just the right touch of moral courage ends up being more constructive than "attempts" at believing in God and in scripture.

People should be true to themselves, including if it turns out that it means saying out loud that they do not believe that there is a God.

That, of course, in no way whatsoever excuses anyone from seeking moral solidity. Quite on the contrary; since there is no evidence for a God protecting us, it is that much more important that we do our best to avoid harming ourselves and take care of ourselves and each other.

Regardless of whether there is a God after all or not, that just can't be wrong.

God can't be seen but disbelieving and rejecting his rules and orders is what supposed to be punishable.

In all honesty, why - or even how - am I supposed to worry about that?

If God seems to have made it a point of encouraging me to make my moral choices without imagining his existence, why should I then attempt to create a problem out of that?

I see neither the need nor the wisdom nor the convenience of such an attempt. At best, I can see that some people are sincerely puzzled, perhaps even troubled, by the existence of atheists. I'm sorry that they do, but that is no reason to attempt to fool them, nor to attempt to lie to myself.

 

[Badran]

But i wonder that it seems that you are proud that your wife preferred you than the creator of the universe,if me,i'll love what ever she loves,only because she is that good woman for me.

It seems elementary that you should read someone's religious title before talking to them about 'the creator of the universe' in such a way that supposes they actually accept the notion.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I can't help but wonder how accurate such a perception is.

It is not exactly easy to tell for certain how much of an impact the Quran made, and how much of it was positive. It certainly brought a lot of a sense of unity of purpose, yet there is strong evidence that this was not necessarily a good thing or a well-realized, fully healthy change.

From my admitedly outsider's perspective, it seems that Muslims spend a remarkably large amount of their religious efforts dealing with what can only be called mistakes, many of them undeniably caused by their own insistence on valuing scripture and tradition so much.

While I understand that it is reckless to say what people that I barely understand should do, it is still very difficult to doubt that a more relaxed approach to religion and tradition would greatly benefit Muslims in general.

Nor do I think it is out of my place to have or state my opinions on the matter, either. A doctrine which states that I was created by a God which they understand better than I do is being quite bold. It should be prepared to deal with some questioning of my own, if for no other reason because surrendering to God's will is supposed to be a non-trivial matter.

I don't think it is too hard to investigate that based on history, when we compare the Arab civilization, we see within a few centuries after Islam, significant improvement in terms of sciences and civilization. I am not talking about our time, I am talking about up to 500 years after Islam.
Before Islam, those Arab Tribes were very primitive and wild. The Laws and teachings of Islam were significantly better and more advance for them. The key to see this is 'relativity'. It means, when you give something to a people which is 'relatively' better than what they currently practice, it causes them to advance. It doesn't mean that Sharia of Islam is better than what currently is practiced in America or Europe. In fact I would say IMO if the Sharia Law was to be practiced now in USA or other countries, it would cause degradation and problems. Those Islam Laws were formulated to treat certain conditions related to the time of the people who lived 1000 years ago. It is like a medicine that was given to a sick person. When that person sickness is treated and the health condition is changed, continuing that medicine does not do well anymore, but can even cause disease. That is how religious laws are formulated. They are relative to the condition of the people of the time they are revealed to. This point can be shown even from the verses of Quran. It never claims that it is a Book of Law to be followed forever. In fact it even gives a period of 1000 years. Just as a Doctor that prescribes a medicine and determines for how long it is to be taken. In same way, the All-knowing physician declared 1000 years as the period of Islam.

 

[LuisDantas]

That may well be true. But who knows what would have happened if the Quran had not been proposed? Or how the consequences would develop over time?

As things are now, it is patently clear that Muslims have as much trouble with their own faith as they have a sense of union arising from it. I personally have no doubt that at some point they will need to embrace the virtues of questioning and challenging central authority and tradition to some degree.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

As things are now, it is patently clear that Muslims have as much trouble with their own faith as they have a sense of union arising from it. I personally have no doubt that at some point they will need to embrace the virtues of questioning and challenging central authority and tradition to some degree.

What a wonderful world that would be.

The Western Muslims whom I've met online seem like great, straight-thinking, even spiritual people. So I'm sure the rest of the world's Muslims are capable of escaping fundamentalism.

I keep wishing that the arabic-speaking Muslims who come here could communicate a little better. They are probably opinion-leaders in their own cultures.

We should start a subforum to help with English. I'd be glad to participate. I used to be an ESL teacher and I understand the basics of punctuation.

 

[FearGod]

Out of the various religions I researched, Islam was the one that I found the least value or truth in.

With other religions I generally came away with some interesting points, but with Islam I found virtually nothing that was both unique and profound. The Qu'ran is the most sadistic of religious texts that I've read, and with the least philosophical complexity in it, and I have a very big set of ethical differences from the majority of Muslims that I've discussed anything with at length.

So I view Islam as a very much human-created religion, and one of the least valuable or interesting ones.

Please raise your points and show examples which made you to build such a bad opinion about Islam.

 

[FearGod]

Believing an ant can recognize a human and his army is silly.

It is silly for you only because you don't know how it works.

See how dogs are amazing

Whale poop is often analyzed by scientists to monitor the health of whales, as it often contains important information about their diet. But there’s one problem: the poop sinks within half an hour of leaving the whale, meaning that scientists need to get their hands on it as soon as possible.
For this reason, one group has started training dogs to detect the poop. The dogs can trace its scent from a distance of more than one mile (1.6 km), and lead scientists to the smelly treasure. When the dog has detected the whale waste, he points out the location to the boat captain by either leaning left or right, or twitching his left or right ear.
Reference: 10 Unexpected Things That Dogs Can Smell - Listverse

People in the 7th century should be more surprised to know that Solomon can understand the ant's language and how come that such tiny insect can speak.

[youtube]7MIqSDFReuo[/youtube]
One Ant Defeats Atheism. My God Delusion Part 1 - YouTube

 

[McBell]

It is silly for you only because you don't know how it works.

See how dogs are amazing

Whale poop is often analyzed by scientists to monitor the health of whales, as it often contains important information about their diet. But there’s one problem: the poop sinks within half an hour of leaving the whale, meaning that scientists need to get their hands on it as soon as possible.
For this reason, one group has started training dogs to detect the poop. The dogs can trace its scent from a distance of more than one mile (1.6 km), and lead scientists to the smelly treasure. When the dog has detected the whale waste, he points out the location to the boat captain by either leaning left or right, or twitching his left or right ear.
Reference: 10 Unexpected Things That Dogs Can Smell - Listverse

Interesting, how is it relevant?

Are you claiming that Mohammed trained the ants like the whale poop sniffing dogs are trained?

People in the 7th century should be more surprised to know that Solomon can understand the ant's language and how come that such tiny insect can speak.

[youtube]7MIqSDFReuo[/youtube]
One Ant Defeats Atheism. My God Delusion Part 1 - YouTube

Wait, are you claiming that people back then were so stupid they could not tell that insects communicate with each other?

One wonders why so many Muslims are impressed by making their ancestors stupid in order to promote their beliefs...

 

[technomage]

The verse says

O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise. (60:10)

As you see, it is a conditional state that the women are emigrants and of course if they will be returned back to the disbelievers then in that time of ignorance they will be killed.

So it is God's wisdom that those women are no more allowed to be returned for the disbelievers and should be protected while in the Muslim lands.

Excuse me, but all six schools (four Sunni, two Shi'a) of jurisprudence agree with my statement. If a woman converts to Islam, and her husband does not, the marriage contract is void. The exact details of what occurs then vary based on which school of jurisprudence is being discussed, but most scholars state that she is to be separated from her husband immediately, she is not to have conjugal relations with him, and if he does not convert to Islam within the 'Iddah, she is free to marry again. This applies both within the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb.

There are some scholars who state that if she is content to wait on the possibility of his conversion, she is not required to divorce him at the end of the 'Iddah, but that is a minority opinion.

The opinion you express above, by being so very incomplete, reflects either ignorance of the requirements, or a desire to hide by dishonest intent what the requirements are. I advise you to discuss with your teachers what those requirements actually are. Indeed, if you will advise me of which sect (Sunni or Shi'a) you follow, I will post the relevant hadith and fatwas on the issue.

But i wonder that it seems that you are proud that your wife preferred you than the creator of the universe,if me,i'll love what ever she loves,only because she is that good woman for me.

If my wife had chosen to convert, my first action would have been to remove anything harram from the house, to set her aside a room for prayers, and to familiarize myself with the laws of halal and harram so as to never cause offense to her faith.