Jesus and his fame

[Dingbat]

Why is Jesus so important? To clarify my point further how did Jesus get much importance when he was just one of many Messiahs, prophets, and healers wandering around Palestine at the time? The more I read about Jewish history of the time in the area as well as Roman accounts the harder it gets to take Jesus as a very serious figure. If we take some of his tales seriously he practically begged to be executed by the powers that be with his pompous entrance to Jerusalem, hinting at sedition with taking back Jerusalem, to his outright assault on the temple.

I guess what I am curious about is how did a "Messiah" who failed harder than many other "messiahs" of his time, who at least attempted to lead revolutions, get a religion out of it? The more I read the more curious I am that anyone cared what a preacher like Jesus even did. Any enlightenment on the subject would be welcome though I imagine some will be offended by the question posed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

A few observations ...

• It is important to distinguish between "what he did" and "what he was purported to have done."
• It is likewise important to distinguish between his milieu and the NT's audience.
• Finally, it is important to distinguish between
  • the timeframe of his presumed ministry,
  • the timeframe of the NT production and distribution, and
  • the period during which Christianity became popular.

That said, apocalyptic messages gain popularity during periods of social upheaval, and it's hardly surprising that some Hellenized Jews in the diaspora would find solace in a theology of personal salvation at a time when national 'salvation' seemed wholly out of reach.

 

[CMike]

I think it's a great question.

There were numerous false prophets, such as Shabtai Tzvi.

Jesus must have given a great performance.

 

[arthra]

Consider that Jesus was only an itinerant preacher wandering around the Galilee for the most part without any temporal power and without an army.. How could His name become more well known than Caesar after the time has past?

Consider also Prophet Muhammad... A poor orphan who in His youth was a humble shepherd and later guided caravans... How could someone with such humble origins weild such influence?

Baha'u'llah as a mere prisoner of the Sultan wrote letters to the powerful rulers...admonishing them?

This is how Divine providence works..

 

[Dingbat]

A few observations ...

• It is important to distinguish between "what he did" and "what he was purported to have done."
• It is likewise important to distinguish between his milieu and the NT's audience.
• Finally, it is important to distinguish between
  • the timeframe of his presumed ministry,
  • the timeframe of the NT production and distribution, and
  • the period during which Christianity became popular.

That said, apocalyptic messages gain popularity during periods of social upheaval, and it's hardly surprising that some Hellenized Jews in the diaspora would find solace in a theology of personal salvation at a time when national 'salvation' seemed wholly out of reach.

I was hoping you would post Jay as I was actually hoping to pick your brain on the subject. You pretty much summed up what I had already put together. I thought about asking this in the Judaism section but figured you guys probably get bombarded with bizarre subjects on the matter and I didn't want to add to it. Though I am extremely curious to the Jewish view on the matter as the more I study the more perplexed I am that Jesus got such a hold on segments of Hellenized Jews.

I think it's a great question.

There were numerous false prophets, such as Shabtai Tzvi.

Jesus must have given a great performance.

Indeed, I would assume he did as he seemed to outlast many who claimed the title of Messiah before and after he was dead. I find the apocalyptic and fatalism of the Jewish community in Palestine to be both fascinating and a bit depressing. Subjugation by Rome had to be a massive blow to many Jews.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... I would assume he did as he seemed to outlast many who claimed the title of Messiah before and after he was dead.

There is zero reason to assume that the relative success of Jesus had anything whatsoever to do with his "performance." On the contrary, what was relatively successful was the marketing of Christianity to Jew and non-Jew alike, in the diaspora, and long after the third decade CE.

 

[CMike]

I was hoping you would post Jay as I was actually hoping to pick your brain on the subject. You pretty much summed up what I had already put together. I thought about asking this in the Judaism section but figured you guys probably get bombarded with bizarre subjects on the matter and I didn't want to add to it. Though I am extremely curious to the Jewish view on the matter as the more I study the more perplexed I am that Jesus got such a hold on segments of Hellenized Jews.


Indeed, I would assume he did as he seemed to outlast many who claimed the title of Messiah before and after he was dead. I find the apocalyptic and fatalism of the Jewish community in Palestine to be both fascinating and a bit depressing. Subjugation by Rome had to be a massive blow to many Jews.

What "palestine"?

Are you referring to Israel?

Also it's not apocalyptic. Israel has it's problems, but it's certainly not apocalyptic.

 

[CMike]

There is zero reason to assume that the relative success of Jesus had anything whatsoever to do with his "performance." On the contrary, what was relatively successful was the marketing of Christianity to Jew and non-Jew alike, in the diaspora, and long after the third decade CE.

The marketing was based on performance.

 

[Dingbat]

What "palestine"?

Are you referring to Israel?

Also it's not apocalyptic. Israel has it's problems, but it's certainly not apocalyptic.

Palestine as in the name the Romans gave the region and I would definitely say at the time there was a bit of an apocalyptic streak in the region during the Roman occupation.

 

[Dingbat]

There is zero reason to assume that the relative success of Jesus had anything whatsoever to do with his "performance." On the contrary, what was relatively successful was the marketing of Christianity to Jew and non-Jew alike, in the diaspora, and long after the third decade CE.

I am using the term performance here in regards to the dramatic and not in regards to actual acts. I imagine most of the succeeds would have to be attributed to his followers who documented and prolog acted the message.

 

[Badran]

***Mod post***

Just a reminder, please keep in mind that this is a DIR and that debating is not allowed.
​

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I imagine most of the succeeds would have to be attributed to his followers who documented and prolog acted the message.

I do not understand that sentence.

Let me ask you this: When do you think Jesus became popular, where, and among whom?

 

[Dingbat]

I do not understand that sentence.

Let me ask you this: When do you think Jesus became popular, where, and among whom?

Far after his death and amongst Hellenized Jews and probably others but I would say it likely found a foothold amongst Jews during the early part of the Diaspora and spread amongst other communities they had contact with. The events of Jesus life were likely dramatized by his disciples and siblings and also subsequent followers.

Sorry about the last sentence I shouldn't use my phone when making posts.

 

[EyeofOdin]

When talking about Jesus we need to understand where he came from.

The Historical Jesus lived supposedly 0-6 AD to around 33-35 AD, during Roman occupation. In this time period, and some time before it, there was a HUGE amount of Hellenic influence within, what the Romans called, Palestine. So this is a middle eastern country (who were fighting with the every other middle eastern country and a few European countries for a long long time), just having been occupied by Romans around 65 years before Christ's birth, all of which creating a lot of tensions between Jews and Greco-Romans.

The "Messiah" was supposed to be someone descended from David sent to essentially forever kick all other countries out of occupation in Israel and reestablish king David's land, at least that's how those people interpreted the prophecies of the Messiah. There were also many other people who claimed to be Messiahs, most of which came from wealthier families and had many more followers than Jesus.

Another interesting note: In the Ancient and Classical world, most people who were kings had to claim divine lineage. Anglo Saxon royalty claimed relation to Odin. Teutonic Rulers claimed lineage from Tiw. Caesar claimed Lineage from Venus. To say that someone was descended from a deity wasn't necessarily talking about their ancestry, they were claiming right to rule, and to do that in ancient Rome was considered treason.

Another thing that's interesting is the fact that even though there were many other Messiahs who were claiming to be the "son of God". Jesus, a poor, uneducated, illiterate Jew who had a good number of followers (more than twelve by the way), who spent his free time talking to diseased lepers and prostitutes, created so much chaos that Rome had him put to death. Now I'm not a Christian by any means, but I have to admit, THAT is one interesting guy. I want to know more about this guy who didn't turn the other cheek to Rome, and didn't seek peace with authority or cheaters (as seen as he was chasing people out of the temple with whips). I like him, he's a trouble maker.

So what exactly made Jesus so famous? I think that it was just a bunch of accidents because all odds were against this one messiah, out of a large number of more successful teachers, prophets and god-men. Although he did have one thing on his side, the ability to stir trouble. To go up to the richest and most powerful people in the country, people who could have him killed on the spot, and say "Woe to you hypocrites!" That guy has some balls.

 

[roger1440]

Why is Jesus so important? To clarify my point further how did Jesus get much importance when he was just one of many Messiahs, prophets, and healers wandering around Palestine at the time? The more I read about Jewish history of the time in the area as well as Roman accounts the harder it gets to take Jesus as a very serious figure. If we take some of his tales seriously he practically begged to be executed by the powers that be with his pompous entrance to Jerusalem, hinting at sedition with taking back Jerusalem, to his outright assault on the temple.

I guess what I am curious about is how did a "Messiah" who failed harder than many other "messiahs" of his time, who at least attempted to lead revolutions, get a religion out of it? The more I read the more curious I am that anyone cared what a preacher like Jesus even did. Any enlightenment on the subject would be welcome though I imagine some will be offended by the question posed.

Nothing is important on its own. Things are only important on its relationship to something else. Example: A spark plug is important to an internal combustion engine, but a spark plug is useless on its own. Jesus is not important to Judaism. Jesus is not important to Hindus.

 

[Pegg]

Why is Jesus so important? To clarify my point further how did Jesus get much importance when he was just one of many Messiahs, prophets, and healers wandering around Palestine at the time? The more I read about Jewish history of the time in the area as well as Roman accounts the harder it gets to take Jesus as a very serious figure. If we take some of his tales seriously he practically begged to be executed by the powers that be with his pompous entrance to Jerusalem, hinting at sedition with taking back Jerusalem, to his outright assault on the temple.

I guess what I am curious about is how did a "Messiah" who failed harder than many other "messiahs" of his time, who at least attempted to lead revolutions, get a religion out of it? The more I read the more curious I am that anyone cared what a preacher like Jesus even did. Any enlightenment on the subject would be welcome though I imagine some will be offended by the question posed.

No other 'messiahs' at the time raised the dead or was raised from the dead. Only Jesus did such things.

Jesus was THE Messiah.... the one God had promised. And of him it was prophesied that all the nations on earth would come to Jesus and be his followers. That prophecy has come true in Jesus case making his position as Messiah all the more assured.

Christianity is the work of God...not any man. If Jesus was not the messiah, christianity would not exist today.