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Jewish culture

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Even still there is a difference between a person who is pursuing scientific study and someone who is not. These students, if they are engaged in learning more such that they might be scientists, can be reasonably labeled as scientists (or budding scientists). Would it be fair to label someone who is not currently pursuing nor has ever pursued engagement in scientific study as a scientist? Even if they self-identified with it? The goal of such a position on self-labeling is to disallow the free self-labeling as any particular thing just because one feels like it. Sure, I can call myself all sorts of things, however unless I fit into some valid definition of the thing, I am not actually that thing.

I agree that calling oneself a scientist or engineer is not something that should be done frivolously. These are highly trained and qualified individuals and one cannot just decide to become part of these groups.

On the other hand, what exactly is the problem with someone deciding they want to become a Jew ? I for one, will be the first to welcome them to the tribe.

Also, I am interested in Buddhist philosophy. No Buddhist has ever told me that I need to know a lot about Buddhist food, art and philosophy to associate with Buddhism. It seems Buddhists may be more welcoming than Jews.


I suppose you assume that a person who identifies as Jewish is in some way pursuing a connection with the Jewish people via religion, history, language, art, music, etc. And I can't say I've met someone who considered him/herself a Jew and had no interest in doing or learning anything about Jewishness. At the same time, if a persons says to me "I am a Jew" and there is nothing at all in their actions or language to suggest they know or desire to know anything about Jews, I question it. I may not pose the question to the person, but internally I question it.

Do you think you are being a little bit judgmental here ? I don't question that you are a Jewish Guardian of Life.


As a ger myself I find extreme discomfort in denying a person's Jewishness. At the same time, given that I cherish the Jewish aspect of my identity, I resist blanket approval of anyone who says "I am a Jew" if there's nothing to support that claim. In the case of the hamentaschen-eating Hindu, I would question why she eats the hamentaschen? Is it because she likes its taste? Is it because she feels a deep connection to the Jewish people and that weekly hamentaschen is her only way of expressing it? It's far too complex to boil down to simplicities, but it doesn't mean that we should consider anyone and everyone who considers himself/herself a <insert something here> that thing.

So what litmus test do you propose for someone to identify as a Jew ? Hamentaschen ? Expert in Torah ? Talmud ? Circumscism ?

I don't read Levite's post as suggesting that he would reject the Jewishness of a claimant, but merely that he finds it odd that someone with no connection to Jewishness might consider himself a Jew. I don't see his claims about what a Jew "should be" as his opinion of what constitutes a Jew. After all, that definition would exclude many people who are, halakhically, Jews. Knowing Levite relatively well I doubt he would be so stringent as to go beyond halakha in defining what a Jew is.
I agree. I think Levite is a gentleman and a scholar. I notice he has not been posting here the last few days, and I hope it has nothing to do with any of my comments (hopefully he is just relaxing and studying during Shabbos). If I did say anything to him that was perceived as rude, I would like to apologize.

Giving the benefit of the doubt, for anything, is faith-work at play. At the very least, make no conclusions about the validity of the claim until further evidence has been presented and analyzed. In practice that means we shouldn't deny those who claim to be Jewish from enjoying participation in Jewish practice. It also means that if the claimant wishes to marry a Jew, and wants that marriage to be halakhically valid, they demonstrate that they are halakhically Jewish.

Ultimately, I suppose, it depends on what the goal is in their making of the claim.

This sounds like some kind of court action to determine if someone can associate with Judaism !!
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
On the other hand, what exactly is the problem with someone deciding they want to become a Jew ?
It's more than a little hard to tell whether the question is grossly disingenuous or pathetically ignorant. Who the hell said anything about there being "problem with someone deciding they want to become a Jew"? But wanting to be a Jew typically involves a good deal more than wanting to enjoy some hamantaschen on Diwali. Based on what you've said to-date, your "Open Tent is indistinguishable from an "Empty Lot".
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Thanks, CMike, I enjoyed that cultural Jewish experience. There is nothing like a pastrami on rye with spicy mustard in West Bloomsfield, is there ?
No there isn't.

Also, bagels cream cheese and lox,:rainbow1: although sadly because of carbs I can't have bagels anymore.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
No there isn't.

Also, bagels cream cheese and lox,:rainbow1: although sadly because of carbs I can't have bagels anymore.

Come on, CMike, we all need to have some fun once in a while. Add some lettuce and tomato to the bagel with schmear and lox and you have a healthy snack :).
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
And it would be ideal if every Jew had a thorough knowledge of science, and it would be ideal if every Jew had a thorough knowledge of first aid, and it would be ideal if …What does this even mean? What would, in fact, be ideal is if some Jews stopped arrogating to themselves the right to delegitimize the rest as being of substandard quality. What would be ideal if if there was zero tolerance for such drivel.

I believe you have mistaken "having standards" for "drivel."

I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach. If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.

I am completely fine with your hypothetical Hindu calling herself a Jew whether she eats one hamentaschen per week or a ham and cheese. That is what is meant by an "open tent philosophy".

Your definition of Judaism, therefore, is utterly meaningless. Everything needs some boundaries to exist as a defined phenomenon. If we applied your standards to cells, they would have no cell walls. If we applied them to people, they would have no skin. Your definition of Judaism leaves no room for either a Jewish People or Covenant, only an amorphous blob of whatever section of humanity has the whim to call itself Jewish on any given day.

Non-Jews are non-Jews. They are not cultural Jews because they are not Jews. To change that, they need to convert; otherwise, they remain non-Jews. The notion that someone could become part of a culture just by picking up a snack nominally of someone else's cuisine is ludicrous. I love samosas, that doesn't make me either Indian or Hindu; and it would be breathtakingly insulting to both Indian culture and Hindu tradition for me to insinuate that it could do so.

It is so incredibly reductive and contemptuous of Jewish peoplehood and tradition-- to say nothing of Jewish law-- to say that anyone who says they are Jewish is Jewish, that I am truly hard pressed to think of anything more offensive that a Jew has said in this DIR.

It seems that all Levite is saying is that a person who fails to demonstrate any interest in doing anything Jewish can hardly be called Jewish. He's not saying there is a minimum requirement needed for a person to call themselves Jewish....

I don't read Levite's post as suggesting that he would reject the Jewishness of a claimant, but merely that he finds it odd that someone with no connection to Jewishness might consider himself a Jew. I don't see his claims about what a Jew "should be" as his opinion of what constitutes a Jew. After all, that definition would exclude many people who are, halakhically, Jews. Knowing Levite relatively well I doubt he would be so stringent as to go beyond halakha in defining what a Jew is.

My standard of who is a Jew has never changed: it is the halachic standard. If your mother is Jewish, or if you were properly converted according to the halachah, you're Jewish, whether you are knowledgeable, faithful, and observant, or ignorant, completely secular, and atheistic-- or any combination of those things. The halachah is the only minimum standard for Jewish identity that I hold. But this thread wasn't supposed to be about a question of Jewish identity, it's about the labels given to or taken by Jews.

What I fail to understand is why a Jew who is completely secular, completely uninvolved in Jewish observance and life, and basically completely ignorant of Jewish culture (history, art, literature, music, Hebrew language or Yiddish or Ladino, customs, tradition, etc.) should be considered a "cultural Jew," rather than simply an assimilated and uneducated Jew.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Good try. I think you have mistaken rank cultural chauvinism with "having standards."

I really fail to see how it is cultural chauvinism to expect that if someone claims the mantle of culture, that they actually be cultured.

Ignorance is, ultimately, voluntary, as is disengagement: if people choose to embrace them, that may be their prerogative; but if they do so, it seems only fair that they lose the right to claim that they are either knowledgeable about or engaged with their culture and tradition.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Your definition of Judaism, therefore, is utterly meaningless. Everything needs some boundaries to exist as a defined phenomenon. If we applied your standards to cells, they would have no cell walls. If we applied them to people, they would have no skin. Your definition of Judaism leaves no room for either a Jewish People or Covenant, only an amorphous blob of whatever section of humanity has the whim to call itself Jewish on any given day.

We are talking about "cultural Jews" as people who wish to associate with Judaism. They might be friends or spouses of Jews or just people interested in Judaism. If they wish to describe themselves as "cultural Jews", I am glad that they wish to make that association. I am pleased to welcome them into Judaism.

Non-Jews are non-Jews. They are not cultural Jews because they are not Jews. To change that, they need to convert; otherwise, they remain non-Jews. The notion that someone could become part of a culture just by picking up a snack nominally of someone else's cuisine is ludicrous. I love samosas, that doesn't make me either Indian or Hindu; and it would be breathtakingly insulting to both Indian culture and Hindu tradition for me to insinuate that it could do so.
Cultural Judaism does not require conversion. And it is up to the cultural Jew, not you. I am a student of Buddhist philosophy. If I wish to consider myself a cultural Buddhist, I do not need your approval to do so.

It is so incredibly reductive and contemptuous of Jewish peoplehood and tradition-- to say nothing of Jewish law-- to say that anyone who says they are Jewish is Jewish, that I am truly hard pressed to think of anything more offensive that a Jew has said in this DIR.

I am sorry to hear that you find my words offensive. There is no contempt intended.

But I do not understand why you find it offensive that I would want to encourage anyone who is attracted to Judaism to participate in it. I am getting the feeling that you, as a Rabbi, wants to be in charge of who considers themselves a Jew. Is that really what the issue is, Rabbinic authority over conversion ? It seems like you are making a utilitarian argument for Rabbinic authority.
 
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Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
Good-- more for me!:woohoo:

With Motown's bankruptcy moving forward, the most profitable company left in Detroit might be Einstein Bagels. Do you think they will take over the Big 3 (Big 2 with Chrysler finished) ? By the way, is this the kind of conversation that cultural Jews might have ? :)
 

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
On the other hand, what exactly is the problem with someone deciding they want to become a Jew ? I for one, will be the first to welcome them to the tribe.

No one has said anything about having a problem with someone wanting to become a Jew. Merely that Jewishness necessarily entails something that distinguishes an individual from that which is not Jewish.

Do you think you are being a little bit judgmental here ?
Not at all. I value words, their meanings and their applications. In order to use words in any way that makes sense they must be limited to certain concept/ideas. Your free use of the word "Jew" seems to eliminate any sort of distinction between that which is Jewish and that which is not.

So what litmus test do you propose for someone to identify as a Jew ? Hamentaschen ? Expert in Torah ? Talmud ? Circumscism ?
I would propose that for someone to identify as a Jew they must have a Jewish identity.

This sounds like some kind of court action to determine if someone can associate with Judaism !!
Defining yourself as something you're not devalues the thing you wish to be. If someone wants to be involved with Judaism, no one in this thread has said anything to indicate that such a person should be prevented from doing so, or mistreated for wanting to do so.

What's been contested is the accuracy of a person's use of a term to define themselves when the definition would be seemingly inaccurate.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
I would propose that for someone to identify as a Jew they must have a Jewish identity.

Who decides, you or them ? It seems you think you are The Knight and The Judge.


Defining yourself as something you're not devalues the thing you wish to be. If someone wants to be involved with Judaism, no one in this thread has said anything to indicate that such a person should be prevented from doing so, or mistreated for wanting to do so.
.

The first step is always deciding someone doesn't belong in the club. The second step is kicking them out.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
We are talking about "cultural Jews" as people who wish to associate with Judaism. They might be friends or spouses of Jews or just people interested in Judaism. If they wish to describe themselves as "cultural Jews", I am glad that they wish to make that association. I am pleased to welcome them into Judaism....Cultural Judaism does not require conversion. And it is up to the cultural Jew, not you.

Then you are inventing your own meaning for what cultural Judaism refers to. It has consistently been used by Jews to refer to secular Jews who, despite their disinterest in religious observance, nonetheless wish to express their connectedness to Jewish culture. It has not, as far as I know, ever been used to describe Judaeophilic non-Jews.

But I do not understand why you find it offensive that I would want to encourage anyone who is attracted to Judaism to participate in it.

If people are attracted to Judaism and want to study it, wonderful. I encourage that wholeheartedly, and have gladly helped many non-Jews study our texts, traditions, and culture. And if their interest moves them to want to convert, wonderful, I wish them well, and will gladly welcome them to the Jewish People, and consider us all the better for having them.

But it is certainly offensive when non-Jews call themselves Jews. Especially if their Jewish expression is little more than bagels and Woody Allen movies.

If I called myself a Mexican just because I got a burrito at Chipotle, I would hope and expect that any actual Mexicans who got wind of it would be absolutely incensed at my complete lack of respect and comprehension of their culture. I fail to see why we do not have a similar right.

I am getting the feeling that you, as a Rabbi, wants to be in charge of who considers themselves a Jew. Is that really what the issue is, Rabbinic authority over conversion ? It seems like you are making a utilitarian argument for Rabbinic authority.

Who is and is not a Jew is not up to me, or any other individual rabbi. It is a matter of halachah. And we haven't been discussing conversions. Unless you now want to call eating a bagel with lox a conversion.

My initial remarks had nothing to do with non-Jews. The OP asked about cultural Jews. I responded with remarks about how I perceived cultural Jews. It is you who brought in the completely foreign idea that anyone who decides Jews are swell can suddenly count themselves a cultural Jew.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
I really fail to see how it is cultural chauvinism to expect that if someone claims the mantle of culture, that they actually be cultured.
Too true. Too true. Those uscrubbed, uncultured Jews are such an embarrassment to real Jews such as you who …
...speak a Jewish language, are steeped in Jewish literature (including traditional text), art, and music, are thoroughly grounded in Jewish history, and have a nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, beyond mere American-Ashkenazi kitsch.
Maybe if we just ignore them they'll go back to Yemen or the Pale of Settlement where they belong. After all, we have our standards to maintain.
 

Avi1001

reform Jew humanist liberal feminist entrepreneur
My initial remarks had nothing to do with non-Jews. The OP asked about cultural Jews. I responded with remarks about how I perceived cultural Jews. It is you who brought in the completely foreign idea that anyone who decides Jews are swell can suddenly count themselves a cultural Jew.

Actually, I think it was another poster who brought up the example of a Hindu women eating a hamentaschen, not I.

But it was a useful example, because it led to lots of interesting discussion.
 
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Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Actually, I think it was another poster who brought up the example of a Hindu women eating a hamentaschen, not I.
Actually, what you said is …
I subscribe to an open tent philosophy to Judaism. Not the outdated, good old boys club approach. If you want to eat bagels and lox, fine, you are in. If you want to study 30 volumes of Talmud in Hebrew, no worries, you can join the club as well.
… a lovely example of vacant tent Judaism.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Too true. Too true. Those uscrubbed, uncultured Jews are such an embarrassment to real Jews such as you who …Maybe if we just ignore them they'll go back to Yemen or the Pale of Settlement where they belong. After all, we have our standards to maintain.

And, again, you are describing communities of Jews living deeply Jewish lives. They have nothing to do with the cultural Jews of today in America.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
And, again, you are describing communities of Jews living deeply Jewish lives. They have nothing to do with the cultural Jews of today in America.
How nice to know that one can live a deeply Jewish life without being "steeped in Jewish literature (including traditional text), art, and music, are thoroughly grounded in Jewish history, and have a nuanced and diverse sense of Jewish cultures, &#8230;" and still (in the right time and place) meet your strict standards.
 
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