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The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

Muffled

Jesus in me
Jesus was Jewish - and they did not believe in Hell - and in NONE of the verses attributed to him - did he EVER use the word Hell.


*

I believe Jesus is also God in the flesh so he knows all about subjects that Jews don't know anything about.

He didn't directly say He was God either but He did say it in other ways and He did talk about Hell even if he didn't use the English word for it.
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
I believe Jesus is also God in the flesh so he knows all about subjects that Jews don't know anything about.

He didn't directly say He was God either but He did say it in other ways and He did talk about Hell even if he didn't use the English word for it.
Why would Jesus need to torture billion upon billions of His own creation who He never have been called and have no free will to chose him?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Very nice.
But my book and my view use the word...divide.

It was the angel speaking, and the divide was between the angel and the rich man....
though they stand close enough to speak face to face.

I see the parable, as an up close and personal confrontation.

I believe this is the key verse: Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

Not according to this verse: Luke 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



 

Muffled

Jesus in me
All I know, is that if there is a Hell and suffering...eternal fires and all that won't do it for me...

If there's a punishment that Satan would bestow upon me, that would be to bind me, cover my body with honey/rotting flesh, then place me in a chamber with millions of biting/flesh eating flies.

I really, really loathe flies. One just has to land on my nose and I go totally ballistic...and living in the Australian bush....that's not a good thing.

*room is full of flies atm and I am getting rather annoyed and about to go commit a massive act of himsa (violence) by getting the can of spray out.

I believe it is usually men who torment each other this way. However it is not likely the idea of terment comes from God. For instance it is the Devil who torments Job in the flesh.

I believe it doesn't do it for a lot of people which is why such people are there out of the way so we can enjoy eternal life without having to put up with those who are evil.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Why would Jesus need to torture billion upon billions of His own creation who He never have been called and have no free will to chose him?

I believe you are in error. Jesus is not torturing anyone. It depends on a person's outlook of course but Hell sounds like fun except for the fact that it isn't life. I believe there will be very few in Hell.

I believe everyone is called and everyone has a choice. I choose life. Wouldn't you?
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
I believe you are in error. Jesus is not torturing anyone. It depends on a person's outlook of course but Hell sounds like fun except for the fact that it isn't life. I believe there will be very few in Hell.

I believe everyone is called and everyone has a choice. I choose life. Wouldn't you?
According to some the scriptures which I know are bad translations hell is torture. You may choose life but if you open your eyes and look around you will see billions, maybe trillions of God's people who cannot choose life because they had no choice because God never caleed them.

lets look at scripture to see how a person who is not spiritual sees God.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (Amp)
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

So where is your scripture where a carnal unspiritual person chooses life?????
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16

Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.

The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."

Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.

Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.

The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.

But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).

Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Benoni said:
THE RICH MAND AND LAZARUS: Luke chapter 16
Mark 4:34 says, "But without a parable Jesus spoke not unto them but when they were alone He expounded all things to His disciples." This scripture proves that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is only a parable. Contrary to traditional teaching, the rich man does not represent the wicked; neither does Lazarus the beggar represent the righteous. Psalm 37:25 says, "I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." This parable is not a type of the righteous begging bread from the wicked.
The rich man in this parable represents Judah who had "five brethren." Judah retained the throne of Israel, which is typified by the purple the rich man was clothed in. Judah retained the priesthood which is typified by the fine linen that he was clothed in. And Judah retained Jerusalem, the prosperous headquarters of Israel, which "fared sumptuously."
Lazarus represents the rest of Israel who lived outside the gates of Jerusalem. They had lost the kingship. They had lost the priesthood, and they depended on Judah for both natural and spiritual government. Because of their rebellion against the Lord they had become spiritually starved and sick. The dogs represented the Gentiles, who shared the crumbs from the Master's table and were more of a comfort to the ten other tribes of Israel than Judah was.
The beggar died first, which represents the ten norther tribes going into captivity. "He was carried by the angels" represents God's control over their journey into captivity. And, he was comforted in Abraham's bosom, represents the spiritual revival that took place while they were in captivity.
Later on the rich man died. This represents Judah being taken into captivity about 100 years later. It says that Lazarus was carried to Abraham's bosom, but it says that the rich man was "buried." It does not say that Lazarus was buried. Judah, as a nation, was buried, never to be a nation in its own right again. The people of Judah will find restoration only when God reunites them once again with their brethren in the other tribes. It is true that some of Judah returned to their land after captivity, but they have lived out a miserable existence and have never been recognized as a nation in their own right again. Not even the present day state of Israel is the restoration that God is going to bring about.
The scripture says that Jesus came to his own, but His own received Him not. And Jewerey has been in a veritable lake of fire ever since they rejected Christ. There was a great gulf fixed between Lazarus and the rich man. This represents the division that was predicted in Zechariah 11:14. "I cut asunder my other staff that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel." And verse ten says they lost the covenant blessing. This great gulf is fixed so that even though Christ rose from the dead, they will not, indeed they cannot believe.
But thank God, this gulf is not eternal. A time is coming when God is going to purify and untie Israel once again and establish them as rulers in His millennial kingdom. Hosea 1:10 & 11 predicts, "In the place where it was said unto them Ye are not My people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together and appoint themselves on head (even Jesus Christ the Messiah whom they had before rejected).
Christ has bridge the great gulf and will restore the covenant blessing to a united Israel when the time is right to do so. Then will all Israel, including Judah, benefit from Ephesians 2:12-16, "That ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise. But now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby."



Sheol is the Hebrew holding place of ALL the dead - both good and bad - awaiting final judgment at the end. The "Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism meaning the "good" earned themselves a spot at the best table - the masters. In other words they are safe and secure - in Sheol - while those who are "bad" watch, burning in their desire (not hell-fire) for a drop of water (possibly the Word) from the table.


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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I believe Jesus is also God in the flesh so he knows all about subjects that Jews don't know anything about.

He didn't directly say He was God either but He did say it in other ways and He did talk about Hell even if he didn't use the English word for it.


He used words meaning exactly what the Hebrew did, - the grave, - the hell concept is added later.


*
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
] Sheol is the Hebrew holding place of ALL the dead - both good and bad -

I have no problem with this

awaiting final judgment at the end.

End of what?
Age?
Man
Carnal man?
World?


God's judgments are just.
What of, "For this cause was the good news preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" --1 Pet.4:6. 1 Peter 3:19 states, "By which (Holy Spirit) also He went and preached unto the spirits (of men) in prison; which sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah," He certainly spanned the fixed gulf you mentioned.

“Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, ALL THE EARTH: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing praise. Let the sea (raging, surging multitudes of humanity) roar, and the fullness thereof; THE WORLD, AND THEY THAT DWELL THEREIN. Let the floods (armies) clap their hands, let the hills (small kingdoms, third world nations) be joyful together before the Lord; for HE COMETH TO JUDGE THE EARTH: WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL HE JUDGE THE WORLD, and the people with equity” (Ps. 98:4,8-9).

The "Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism meaning the "good" earned themselves a spot at the best table - the masters. In other words they are safe and secure - in Sheol - while those who are "bad" watch, burning in their desire (not hell-fire) for a drop of water (possibly the Word) from the table.[quote]

Sorry you need to look outside of your box; this is a parable of the rich man and Lazarus about the Jews and the way they treated the people who lived near them. Jew during Jesus day would of fully understand what Jesus was saying. The scene of the telling of this parable is with the sinners and publicans, as well as the Pharisees and scribes, all present.

The rich man typifies the religious Jew who was entrusted with the stewardship of the riches of the kingdom but he would not share those riches with those who were outside the gates of the commonwealth of God, as it was under the Law. Get a picture of the Gentiles, like the Syro-phoenician woman whose daughter was grievously vexed with a devil and who, like Lazarus, was eager for the crumbs that fell from the master's table, "... full of sores and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table."

None can deny that the Jews have for the last 2,000 years been in a hell, with a seeming fixed gulf, over which they as a nation have not been able to cross. But the Nations, the Gentiles, have been sitting at the Lord's table with Abraham and their fathers.
As for Abraham not being able to cross the gulf, I do not wonder that he could not cross it, nor Isaac, nor Jacob. They were not qualified to cross that gulf. But praise God, there is one who has spanned that gulf! Jesus Christ, the Savior of all! He left no stone unturned as to man's redemption nor any gulf He did not span!

As for the rich man and Lazarus; it is a parable with tremendous lessons contained in it for those with ears to hear and a heart to understand. May God give us such?
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
According to some the scriptures which I know are bad translations hell is torture. You may choose life but if you open your eyes and look around you will see billions, maybe trillions of God's people who cannot choose life because they had no choice because God never caleed them.

lets look at scripture to see how a person who is not spiritual sees God.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (Amp)
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

So where is your scripture where a carnal unspiritual person chooses life?????

I haven't seen the word torture used but I have seen the word torment.

Mt 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Lu 16:28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

I believe it is not the place that is the torment but that torment happens in that place. (The demons saw the possiblility of being tormented by Jesus while in the flesh)

I don't believe I can see that many but of those I know who have not chosen life, I believe they were always capable of believing and choosing life but were not wise enough to do so. Neither did they ask God for wisdom. However as in the case of my wife who was an agnostic for many years, people can have their eyes opened and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. For her it was an encounter with a demon that revealed spiritual truth to her. (Many people have trouble getting past a materialistic viewpoint, including the Paharisee Nicodemus in John 3)

Here is one:

Luke 19:7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, He is gone in to lodge with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
He used words meaning exactly what the Hebrew did, - the grave, - the hell concept is added later.


*

I believe you are in error because Jesus used the word "fire" and there never was any reference in the Tanakh of the grave being a place of fire. It is a burial place in Norse mythology and a place the dead go to in Greek mythology if the person has acted badly.

I believe there is no evidence to support this notion.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I believe you are in error because Jesus used the word "fire" and there never was any reference in the Tanakh of the grave being a place of fire. It is a burial place in Norse mythology and a place the dead go to in Greek mythology if the person has acted badly.

I believe there is no evidence to support this notion.

It is not talking about a hell fire.


Luke 16:23 And being in the grave (Hades) raised his eyes, (huparcho)being at the (basanos) bottom, to see the Abraam far above in the distance, and Lazaros in the bosom of him.

Luke 16:24 And he called out saying, "Father Abraam have compassion for me, and send Lazaros that he might moisten the end of his finger in water and refresh my tongue, because I am tormented by this burning (intense yearning.)"

Luke 16:25 But said Abraam, "son remember that received thou the good/benefits in your lifetime, and Lazaros in his lifetime, likewise, his bad/injurious: but now here, is his consolation, and your grief/sorrow.


In the Hebrew tradition ALL went to Sheol until Judgment. There was no hellfire there. They thought of the dead as being closer to God, or through sin - far away.

There is a very good article on this in Bible Review volume IV, number 1, pages 12-24, titled - AFTERLIFE, Ancient Israel's Changing Vision Of The World Beyond.

"Being in the Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism for being counted among the elite, reclining at the head table of the Patriarchs.


*
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
I haven't seen the word torture used but I have seen the word torment.

Mt 8:29 And behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Lu 16:28 for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

I believe it is not the place that is the torment but that torment happens in that place. (The demons saw the possiblility of being tormented by Jesus while in the flesh)

I don't believe I can see that many but of those I know who have not chosen life, I believe they were always capable of believing and choosing life but were not wise enough to do so. Neither did they ask God for wisdom. However as in the case of my wife who was an agnostic for many years, people can have their eyes opened and receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. For her it was an encounter with a demon that revealed spiritual truth to her. (Many people have trouble getting past a materialistic viewpoint, including the Paharisee Nicodemus in John 3)

Here is one:

Luke 19:7 And when they saw it, they all murmured, saying, He is gone in to lodge with a man that is a sinner.
8 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord, Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have wrongfully exacted aught of any man, I restore fourfold.
9 And Jesus said unto him, To-day is salvation come to this house, forasmuch as he also is a son of Abraham.


When I speak of torture I am speaking of the false doctine in the religious realm peratining to the false doctine of eternal hell.

God's fires are spiriual in nature. God has no need to burn people up
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
It is not talking about a hell fire.


Luke 16:23 And being in the grave (Hades) raised his eyes, (huparcho)being at the (basanos) bottom, to see the Abraam far above in the distance, and Lazaros in the bosom of him.

Luke 16:24 And he called out saying, "Father Abraam have compassion for me, and send Lazaros that he might moisten the end of his finger in water and refresh my tongue, because I am tormented by this burning (intense yearning.)"

Luke 16:25 But said Abraam, "son remember that received thou the good/benefits in your lifetime, and Lazaros in his lifetime, likewise, his bad/injurious: but now here, is his consolation, and your grief/sorrow.


In the Hebrew tradition ALL went to Sheol until Judgment. There was no hellfire there. They thought of the dead as being closer to God, or through sin - far away.

There is a very good article on this in Bible Review volume IV, number 1, pages 12-24, titled - AFTERLIFE, Ancient Israel's Changing Vision Of The World Beyond.

"Being in the Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism for being counted among the elite, reclining at the head table of the Patriarchs.


*

What kind of fire is eternal? I believe a dump fire isn't eternal. The conflagration that comes at the end of the world isn't eternal.

Mt 18:8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire.

I believe that is tradition and not information from God but the reality is that Jews were buried in that tradition and not in a fiery place.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
When I speak of torture I am speaking of the false doctine in the religious realm peratining to the false doctine of eternal hell.

God's fires are spiriual in nature. God has no need to burn people up

I believe you have forgotten about Sodom and Gomorrah.

I don't know why one would refer to a false doctrine as evidence.

I believe there is a false doctrine of Hell and a correct view of Hell. Again why would one refer to a false doctrine?
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
It is not talking about a hell fire.


Luke 16:23 And being in the grave (Hades) raised his eyes, (huparcho)being at the (basanos) bottom, to see the Abraam far above in the distance, and Lazaros in the bosom of him.

Luke 16:24 And he called out saying, "Father Abraam have compassion for me, and send Lazaros that he might moisten the end of his finger in water and refresh my tongue, because I am tormented by this burning (intense yearning.)"

Luke 16:25 But said Abraam, "son remember that received thou the good/benefits in your lifetime, and Lazaros in his lifetime, likewise, his bad/injurious: but now here, is his consolation, and your grief/sorrow.


In the Hebrew tradition ALL went to Sheol until Judgment. There was no hellfire there. They thought of the dead as being closer to God, or through sin - far away.

There is a very good article on this in Bible Review volume IV, number 1, pages 12-24, titled - AFTERLIFE, Ancient Israel's Changing Vision Of The World Beyond.

"Being in the Bosom of Abraham" is a colloquialism for being counted among the elite, reclining at the head table of the Patriarchs.
What kind of fire is eternal? I believe a dump fire isn't eternal. The conflagration that comes at the end of the world isn't eternal.

Mt 18:8 And if thy hand or thy foot causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: it is good for thee to enter into life maimed or halt, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into the eternal fire.

I believe that is tradition and not information from God but the reality is that Jews were buried in that tradition and not in a fiery place.


Yes, you have to look at the verse and the word used. Sometimes they are referring to a purifying fire, like a forge, and sometimes they mean total annihilation. The Gehenna Fire seems to mean you have been judged a criminal. And like them will find yourself tossed/destroyed on the burning garbage heap.


Tanakh has no Hell or evil Satan. That seems to be what later Christians picked up from other religions and started to incorporate into later Christian texts.


EDIT - After reading one of your other post I believe the problem is the translation of one word. There is no "fire" in the quoted text.

He realizes he has placed himself far from YHVH. He looks up and sees the poor man in the Bosom of Abraham - and "BURNS" in his yearning for what he has lost. Water has always represented the word, or knowledge.

So there is no "fire," nor the word "eternal" connected to it, in that text.


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Thief

Rogue Theologian
Any discussion that leans to consumption?
Fire consumes.

Do you think it matters that you burn in flesh?....or in spirit?

Perhaps the spirit CAN be consumed?

Toss anything into a stellar black hole and it will disappear.

Hot on the way in?.....likely so.
Eternal....yeah.
Would you be aware?....the angels that throw you in might not care.

Might be easier to keep the discussion to the way we think and feel.
Can you be consumed from within?......yeah.
 
What the hell.

God is NOT the God of Love. God is the God of moral balance, the greatest good and evil, the most powerful creative and destructive force there is.

I think you all have God confused with Aphrodite.
 
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