Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

[outhouse]

I see the scriptures showing the establishment and events surrounding the modern state of Israel as the greatest sign and indication of the end of the age and the soon return of Yeshua, Jesus Christ.

Thousands have made these exact predictions, they all have one thing in common.

Every single one of them was wrong.

 

[InChrist]

But if it isnt about numbers why would you bring up numbers as an argument?

Obviously no numbers are needed to show that Israel is a nation again. As I stated in the OP, I believe this is in fulfillment of prophetic scriptures and indicates we are near the end of the age and the soon return of Christ. I brought up the number of Jewish believers in Christ only as a side note to point out that many thousands refer to Jesus as Yeshua/Y'shua.


God did promise He would bring the Jews back to the land again a second time (Isaiah 11:11-12)

 

[InChrist]

Thousands have made these exact predictions, they all have one thing in common.

Every single one of them was wrong.

As far as I know only God through the scriptures made this exact prophetic revelation about Israel. Many may have believed it and agreed with it, but they did not make the prediction and it was not wrong. Israel is a nation again as the scriptures foretold.

 

[InChrist]

Why is taking ancient scripture form a very specific ancient tribe as the "truth" considered "wisdom"? Wisdom means insight. Usually into specific events around you that is gained through personal experience in life. Kind of the opposite of what you are proposing.

No human knows the future. Yet, these ancient scriptures, as you refer to them, contain the words of a Creator who has revealed future events which are relative to the entire world, many of which have come to pass. This is what I believe. So to seek God's insight is the ultimate wisdom from my perspective.

Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done... Isaiah 46:9-10

 

[Monk Of Reason]

No human knows the future. Yet, these ancient scriptures, as you refer to them, contain the words of a Creator who has revealed future events which are relative to the entire world, many of which have come to pass. This is what I believe. So to seek God's insight is the ultimate wisdom from my perspective.

Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done... Isaiah 46:9-10

I know of several people that can tell me your future with Tarot cards for $20 bucks. Some of them are even right. They have no more truth than your god. And vice versa.

You can believe what you want but I don't see that as wisdom. Wisdom isnt' something that you can obtain so easily. It takes years of living and experiencing life and being honest with yourself about what you experienced. Then from that you can develop an insight on life. That is wisdom to me.

What do you make of the Islamic prophecies? Or hindu prophecies? They from god as well or just Christianity?

 

[Flankerl]

God did promise He would bring the Jews back to the land again a second time (Isaiah 11:11-12)

By the means of largely secular people.

That makes sense.

 

[InChrist]

I know of several people that can tell me your future with Tarot cards for $20 bucks. Some of them are even right. They have no more truth than your god. And vice versa.

You can believe what you want but I don't see that as wisdom. Wisdom isnt' something that you can obtain so easily. It takes years of living and experiencing life and being honest with yourself about what you experienced. Then from that you can develop an insight on life. That is wisdom to me.

What do you make of the Islamic prophecies? Or hindu prophecies? They from god as well or just Christianity?

And you can believe whatever you like. Yet, according to the biblical scriptures a true prophet of God must be 100% accurate. So tarot card readers and other religious or mythical predictors prove themselves false even with one mistaken prediction.

 

[InChrist]

By the means of largely secular people.

That makes sense.

The history recorded in the Torah shows that God has very often worked through human vessels, secular or otherwise.

 

[Tarheeler]

I see the scriptures showing the establishment and events surrounding the modern state of Israel as the greatest sign and indication of the end of the age and the soon return of Yeshua, Jesus Christ. Does anyone else see this clear fulfillment of God's prophetic word taking place right before our eyes?

Nope. It think it is a clear example of the Jews deciding that second or third class status as permanent resident aliens regardless of how long their families had lived in a place or how much they had sacrificed to the state wasn't going to cut it any more; that is was time for self-determination in a state of their own.

If it were a fulfillment of messianic prophecy, then it would be a theocratic monarchy with a direct descendant of David on the throne and we would have world peace.

 

[InChrist]

Nope. It think it is a clear example of the Jews deciding that second or third class status as permanent resident aliens regardless of how long their families had lived in a place or how much they had sacrificed to the state wasn't going to cut it any more; that is was time for self-determination in a state of their own.

If it were a fulfillment of messianic prophecy, then it would be a theocratic monarchy with a direct descendant of David on the throne and we would have world peace.

I appreciate your comments and perspective. Yet, I see the prophetic scriptures concerning Israel as being in a state of progressive fulfillment or in others words phases of fulfillment. God physically brings the people back to the land, in unbelief, using and working through humans, including the determination of the Jewish people for their own land and state. Then He awakens them spiritually (Isaiah 11:11; Ezekiel 37). So the completed fulfillment you are referring to with a theocratic monarchy ruled by a direct descendant of David on the throne who will bring world peace has not yet occurred, but is very near because the Jewish people are now back in the land of Israel.

 

[Akivah]

And you can believe whatever you like. Yet, according to the biblical scriptures a true prophet of God must be 100% accurate.

That's not exactly right.

In Judaism, prophecy is not always about telling the future. Prophecy is mostly about relating G-d's words and speaking to the current generation. The decree can always be averted by people changing their actions. For example, Jonah prophesized that Ninveh would be destroyed. In response, the populace improved their behaviour and repented their past wrongs. They atoned for their behaviour and G-d didn't destroy the city.

We can say that a true prophet of G-d must speak 100% in accordance with the Hebrew bible.

 

[Akivah]

Well, you can view it any way you like, but Jews who believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah refer to Him as Yeshua or Y'shua.

Don't forget the thousands of Christians that have abandoned your god to convert to Judaism, former clergy among them.

List of converts to Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Tarheeler]

I appreciate your comments and perspective. Yet, I see the prophetic scriptures concerning Israel as being in a state of progressive fulfillment or in others words phases of fulfillment. God physically brings the people back to the land, in unbelief, using and working through humans, including the determination of the Jewish people for their own land and state. Then He awakens them spiritually (Isaiah 11:11; Ezekiel 37). So the completed fulfillment you are referring to with a theocratic monarchy ruled by a direct descendant of David on the throne who will bring world peace has not yet occurred, but is very near because the Jewish people are now back in the land of Israel.

You're free to see it however you wish, and since many Christians think the messianic era began 2000 years ago I can't really blame you.

 

[InChrist]

That's not exactly right.

In Judaism, prophecy is not always about telling the future. Prophecy is mostly about relating G-d's words and speaking to the current generation. The decree can always be averted by people changing their actions. For example, Jonah prophesized that Ninveh would be destroyed. In response, the populace improved their behaviour and repented their past wrongs. They atoned for their behaviour and G-d didn't destroy the city.

We can say that a true prophet of G-d must speak 100% in accordance with the Hebrew bible.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. Prophecy is not always about future events, but can often be related to illuminating G-d's words to people for their edification and to bring about change in their lives. As the example you gave above G-d does act in response to those who acknowledge Him in prayer and/or repentance. King Hezekiah is another example (Isaiah 38). Yet, about one third of the Bible is prophecy, many of those being promises to literal Israel for a literal future. I believe G-d is and will continue to fulfill those promises.

 

[InChrist]

Don't forget the thousands of Christians that have abandoned your god to convert to Judaism, former clergy among them.

List of converts to Judaism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

True, many have abandoned the religious practice of Christianity to convert to another religious practice, Judaism being one. But I find it impossible to believe that anyone who knows Jesus Christ as their Savior and Messiah and has eternal life through Him would or even could abandon that. As one Jewish believer put it...

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69

 

[Tarheeler]

... But I find it impossible to believe that anyone who knows Jesus Christ as their Savior and Messiah and has eternal life through Him would or even could abandon that. ...

And yet it happens every day. I did it myself.

But the whole "no true Scotsman" thing gets old pretty quick.

 

[metis]

True, many have abandoned the religious practice of Christianity to convert to another religious practice, Judaism being one. But I find it impossible to believe that anyone who knows Jesus Christ as their Savior and Messiah and has eternal life through Him would or even could abandon that.

Unless they came to disagree with the above. I saw a poll several weeks ago that had it that most Americans simply do no believe one must be Christian in order to possibly enter heaven.

 

[InChrist]

You're free to see it however you wish, and since many Christians think the messianic era began 2000 years ago I can't really blame you.

While I believe Christ came in fulfillment of the scriptures to pay for the sins of the world 2000 years ago, I don't see that the Messianic era begins until His future return to Jerusalem to defend Israel, bring peace, and rule the nations from the throne of David.

 

[Tarheeler]

While I believe Christ came in fulfillment of the scriptures to pay for the sins of the world 2000 years ago, I don't see that the Messianic era begins until His future return to Jerusalem to defend Israel, bring peace, and rule the nations from the throne of David.

I said many, not all.

It's funny. When I was a Christian, I was taught that the return was just around the corner, and that everything happening in the world pointed to it; it's the POV held by many of my family and friends today.

But I've never met a Jew, including myself, that takes that view or thinks that the modern state of Israel is proof of the impending messianic age. It's a totally different mindset

 

[InChrist]

And yet it happens every day. I did it myself.

But the whole "no true Scotsman" thing gets old pretty quick.

If you did, then I don't believe you ever knew Christ in a real and personal way or the power of His resurrected life alive in you. The scriptures say that if one in born again from above you are a new creation. Someone who is literally born again spiritually by God's power cannot be unborn.